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MoEnzyme
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Alan Turing and Harvey Milk - gay icons.
« on: 2010-05-28 16:25:55 »
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We had this discussion earlier, some question about whether or not Alan Turing is a gay icon when we discussed him for Virion Sainthood. With only one abstention the unanimous agreement in the Church of Virus is that we choose Alan Turing as our saint because of his many intellectual gifts to humanity. Alan Turing's work in artificial intelligence, computer concepts, and biological mathematics compliment and add quite a lot more to Charles Darwin's evolution memes. Darwin, our chronologically second saint, gave us Evolution 1.0, and Turing gave us Evolution 2.0. It seems almost a natural progression to make him our third saint. We all agree that Alan Turing did not think of himself as a gay icon in his lifetime. Using his intelligence to literally save the world (or at least the Allies) and such other  things like that took up too much of his concern to have considered himself a gay activist. As a church we choose him for his vision, not the tragedy. Only in the last couple of years of his life did his homosexuality as an issue become important and certainly not by his choice. He presumably chose to commit suicide. That part of the story is certainly his to claim, so in his death he became a gay icon. Many members of the GLBT cultural community certainly think so - Ian McKellen for just one example of many - and given the tragic story I don't think there is much-a-way to avoid such a conclusion. I embrace that aspect of Alan Turing as well. With only one abstention it seems that the rest of the Church does too.

-Mo
« Last Edit: 2010-05-28 23:17:51 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Alan Turing and Harvey Milk - gay icons.
« Reply #1 on: 2010-05-28 18:11:12 »
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I bring up Harvey Milk because I recently saw the movie "Milk" about the 1970's San Francisco gay rights activist. He was much more a voluntary gay icon in his life, or at least for the last decade of his life. He deliberately, politically, and culturally played a very important direct leading role in shaping San Fransisco into the gay friendly city as we know it today. Even though he only held political office for one year before he was assassinated, he had already made a huge difference in attitudes towards homosexuality and gay rights both in SF and across the US.

It was a great movie as well with Sean Penn playing Harvey Milk. I highly recommend it.

-Mo
« Last Edit: 2010-05-28 21:40:22 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Alan Turing and Harvey Milk - gay icons.
« Reply #2 on: 2010-05-28 22:40:42 »
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I entered Harvey Milk into our Meridion reputation system. Be sure to vote on him and many others there.

http://www.churchofvirus.org/bbs/index.php?board=4;action=rateIndex;category=person;order=asc;sort=reputation
« Last Edit: 2010-05-28 22:52:27 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Alan Turing and Harvey Milk - gay icons.
« Reply #3 on: 2010-05-29 04:48:28 »
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I recommend this movie. I bought it at Blockbuster as a used copy at $3.99US, and after seeing it I probably would have paid at least 3x that. I'm going back to see if I can snag a couple of more copies as gifts for friends.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1013753/

Milk
2008
Starring Sean Penn
 PennMilk.jpg
« Last Edit: 2010-05-29 04:53:14 by MoEnzyme »
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Re:Alan Turing and Harvey Milk - gay icons.
« Reply #4 on: 2010-05-30 16:20:22 »
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Obviously I was talking about Hermit in the first post in this thread when mentioning our one abstention. I don't want to represent his position in any way on this thread, so when I talk about "us" in the Church of the Virus I consider him one of our community. We did however have a decisive Meridion vote on Alan Turing to be our 3rd Saint. Lucifer wrote some wiki about Alan Turing, we had a meridion vote, Hermit participated even though he was the only abstention in the end, and the vote was decisive with no one opposing it.

Everyone paying attention knows his objections . . . not to the procedural of the vote itself, mind you, but due to what I'd supose is my alleged hypocritical/dogmatic behavior (I assume apathy is out because I was actually doing something as opposed to not doing something), lack of empathy/reason/vision and whatnot. And I suppose his continuing objection to everyone else who cooperated with me in the canonization process shines through as he has effectively left the church with his hanging abstention. Left with that I have to only suppose that in spite of everything he knows and likes about Alan Turing, Alan Turing is not a saint for him. I welcome any clarification on that.

I'm ready to live with that and move on. However, I think to first address this gay icon issue is appropriate. And this is it. If I wanted a gay icon as the next saint in the Church of Virus, I would choose someone like Harvey Milk. Indeed I think I just might . . . so far I've given Harvey Milk a 7 in the Meridion "famous/infamous" people ratings. If I can be persuaded to raise his rating to 9, I will personally advocate his sainthood. In the meantime, if Hermit has any desire to clarify his position before he abandons us forever, I would like to hear it. And if not for me, then possibly for the other people he's left behind, so to speak.

-Mo
« Last Edit: 2010-05-30 18:45:56 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Alan Turing and Harvey Milk - gay icons.
« Reply #5 on: 2010-05-30 17:36:57 »
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Incidentally I did manage to obtain 3 more used DVD copies of the movie Milk. If you actually voted on the Alan Turing canonization (Sat, irvken, Fritz, Hermit, Walter Watts, Blunderov, the.bricoleur, or David Lucifer), and you want a copy contact me via BBS message with your shipping information and I'll send one to you as a gift.

Love,

-Mo
« Last Edit: 2010-05-30 17:37:33 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Alan Turing and Harvey Milk - gay icons.
« Reply #6 on: 2010-05-30 17:55:25 »
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Quote from: MoEnzyme on 2010-05-30 17:36:57   

Incidentally I did manage to obtain 3 more used DVD copies of the movie Milk. If you actually voted on the Alan Turing canonization (Sat, irvken, Fritz, Hermit, Walter Watts, Blunderov, the.bricoleur, or David Lucifer), and you want a copy contact me via BBS message with your shipping information and I'll send one to you as a gift.

Love,

-Mo

Hey Mo,

Got it, saw it , thought it was extremely well done and found a whole new respect for Sean Penn as an actor.

Good Movie and I agree the context is meaningful.

Cheers

Fritz

PS: Doesn't the purchase of a DVD grant a user license to the original purchaser and it is not transferable when resold .... or am I wrong and is that just Microsoft and Windows licences to a CPU ?
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Re:Alan Turing and Harvey Milk - gay icons. ping Hermit
« Reply #7 on: 2010-05-30 18:33:44 »
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Gotchya Fritz. Incidentally in case you didn't notice, I somewhat obliquely offered Hermit a copy as well. And I meant that particularly for him.

Dear Hermit,

During the little shitfest we shared over the the Alan Turing vote, you made some allusions to how backwards and uncivilized citizens of the US are about homosexuality, behavior, and how much more enlightened you and other Europeans are on the topic. And of course as the American you were currently arguing with I suppose you meant that for me, to imply that somehow I just don't "get it" or something like that. Regardless, your commentary on the indigenous stands.

Well, since you didn't grow up in the US, perhaps you haven't tried our Milk. If you wish to continue to poor talk the indigenous where you live, perhaps you should educate yourself on the issue better first. Harvey Milk led the way and more or less invented the ways in which GLBT issues are discussed in the US today. And so as a native born citizen (like BHO) I'd like to offer you a sample of our best on that issue. I don't have your current shipping information anymore, however, so you'll have to message it to me if you accept.

Love,

-Mo
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Re:Alan Turing and Harvey Milk - gay icons.
« Reply #8 on: 2010-07-09 10:31:55 »
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"If you want real political power, . . . if that's what you want try telling the truth for a change." -Harvey Milk
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Re:Alan Turing and Harvey Milk - gay icons.
« Reply #9 on: 2010-07-10 01:40:27 »
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*cringe*

who is a gay icon?

acc to wiki: [url = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_icon]

[...]A gay icon is a historical figure, celebrity  or public figure who is embraced by many within lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender  (LGBT) communities; Dykon, a portmanteau  of "dyke" and "icon," has recently entered the lexicon to describe lesbian icons.[1]

Qualities of a gay icon often include glamour, flamboyance, strength through adversity, and androgyny. Such icons may be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or transgendered; they may also be closeted or open with their sexual orientation and gender identity. Although most gay icons have given their support to LGBT social movements, some have expressed opposition, advocating against a perceived homosexual agenda.

Historical icons are typically elevated to such status because their sexual orientation remains a topic of great debate among historians. Modern gay icons, who are predominantly female entertainers, typically garner a large following within LGBT communities over the course of their careers. The majority of gay icons fall into one of two categories: the tragic, sometimes suicidal figure or the prominent pop culture idol.[...]

p.s. for most gay people in san francisco, mayor george moscone was much more of a gay icon than milk. and moscone was hetero and he fought harder for gay rights in san francisco than milk ever did...

just saying..so you'd get the facts straight. a movie does not a hero make..
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Re:Alan Turing and Harvey Milk - gay icons.
« Reply #10 on: 2010-07-10 02:33:03 »
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Quote from: Trollmaid on 2010-07-10 01:40:27   
*cringe*

who is a gay icon?

acc to wiki: [url = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_icon]

[...]A gay icon is a historical figure, celebrity  or public figure who is embraced by many within lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender  (LGBT) communities; Dykon, a portmanteau  of "dyke" and "icon," has recently entered the lexicon to describe lesbian icons.[1]

Qualities of a gay icon often include glamour, flamboyance, strength through adversity, and androgyny. Such icons may be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or transgendered; they may also be closeted or open with their sexual orientation and gender identity. Although most gay icons have given their support to LGBT social movements, some have expressed opposition, advocating against a perceived homosexual agenda.

Historical icons are typically elevated to such status because their sexual orientation remains a topic of great debate among historians. Modern gay icons, who are predominantly female entertainers, typically garner a large following within LGBT communities over the course of their careers. The majority of gay icons fall into one of two categories: the tragic, sometimes suicidal figure or the prominent pop culture idol.[...]

p.s. for most gay people in san francisco, mayor george moscone was much more of a gay icon than milk. and moscone was hetero and he fought harder for gay rights in san francisco than milk ever did...

just saying..so you'd get the facts straight. a movie does not a hero make..


Trollmaid,
Have you seen the movie? If so can you please tell me what specifically is inaccurate about it instead just this vague insinuation? Have you even read the wikipedia? You sound ignorant of the things you speak of, as usual for you. Why don't you actually read something before you just pop off at the mouth like idiot lacking impulse control? Too much effort for your lazy brain, or are you just too busy posing for your computer camera?
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Re:Alan Turing and Harvey Milk - gay icons.
« Reply #11 on: 2010-07-10 11:38:52 »
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More from the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_icon which Trollmaid quoted from, but obviously didn't actually read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_icon#In_politics

George Moscone was named in a list, but the article gave a whole paragraph to Harvey Milk:

Quote:
San Francisco City Supervisor Harvey Milk was the first openly gay man to be elected to office in the U.S. and spearheaded the defeat of statewide anti-gay ballot measure Proposition 6 in California in 1978. While he was assassinated shortly thereafter he became viewed as something of a martyr for gay rights and a positive role model as the namesake for the first high school primarily for gay teenagers, the Harvey Milk High School.[148] The portrayal of those efforts in the critically acclaimed film Milk earned Sean Penn an Oscar and comparisons to the contemporary battle over the anti-gay ballot initiative Proposition 8 raging in California at the time of its release in 2008.[149]

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Re:Alan Turing and Harvey Milk - gay icons.
« Reply #12 on: 2010-07-10 12:23:45 »
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what are you talking about? you suggested harvey milk for 'virian gay icon' after seeing a movie?

first of all, why should cov have a 'gay icon' as a saint? being gay isnt a virtue. its insulting to gays as well as the rest of the others. san francisco is my town. i know more about this place and its history than you ever will..

if there ever was a saint who needs canonisation, its moscone. moscone was a true blue san franciscan who fought for gay rights. milk was a gay man from new york who lost most of the times he ran for office until moscone gave him a chance as supervisor. dan white was a loony who lost his job and his sanity..and who went on a killing rampage. milk had PR..moscone didnt have enough to make him a movie. while most of us admire milk for his energy and spirit, it is not enough to suggest that we canonise him on cov. what exactly is your reason? that you saw a movie?

secondly, you are a fucking moron for trying to 'call out' to hermit. i did suggest to hermit to stop interacting in cov because of your moronic chat rants about hermit being homophobic. hermit first introduced me to cov in 1998. before i even met him, he raved on and on about lucifer and cov. i remember we were standing at a gas station in oregon and he explained the word 'meme' to me. he said cov was the future. how you lot turned against him. i also remember the way he treated you at the virian meet at his place. you were like a brother to him. the way you(and some others) have been treating him is unacceptable and reflects on the kind of shit you are.... hermit and i have always had differences..he is a lot of things..he was my best friend during a time when i needed one and in some sense he always will be a friend to me. after the crap you dished out about him on chat...and behind his back... why the fuck are you trying to reach out to him again and again? if a man doesnt have loyalty, he is nothing more than a piece of shit. this place doesnt deserve hermit. so stop.


Quote from: MoEnzyme on 2010-07-10 02:33:03   


Quote from: Trollmaid on 2010-07-10 01:40:27   

*cringe*

who is a gay icon?

acc to wiki: [url = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_icon]

[...]A gay icon is a historical figure, celebrity  or public figure who is embraced by many within lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender  (LGBT) communities; Dykon, a portmanteau  of "dyke" and "icon," has recently entered the lexicon to describe lesbian icons.[1]

Qualities of a gay icon often include glamour, flamboyance, strength through adversity, and androgyny. Such icons may be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or transgendered; they may also be closeted or open with their sexual orientation and gender identity. Although most gay icons have given their support to LGBT social movements, some have expressed opposition, advocating against a perceived homosexual agenda.

Historical icons are typically elevated to such status because their sexual orientation remains a topic of great debate among historians. Modern gay icons, who are predominantly female entertainers, typically garner a large following within LGBT communities over the course of their careers. The majority of gay icons fall into one of two categories: the tragic, sometimes suicidal figure or the prominent pop culture idol.[...]

p.s. for most gay people in san francisco, mayor george moscone was much more of a gay icon than milk. and moscone was hetero and he fought harder for gay rights in san francisco than milk ever did...

just saying..so you'd get the facts straight. a movie does not a hero make..

Trollmaid,
Have you seen the movie? If so can you please tell me what specifically is inaccurate about it instead just this vague insinuation? Have you even read the wikipedia? You sound ignorant of the things you speak of, as usual for you. Why don't you actually read something before you just pop off at the mouth like idiot lacking impulse control? Too much effort for your lazy brain, or are you just too busy posing for your computer camera?
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Re:Alan Turing and Harvey Milk - gay icons.
« Reply #13 on: 2010-07-10 13:24:51 »
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Quote from: Trollmaid on 2010-07-10 12:23:45   
secondly, you are a fucking moron for trying to 'call out' to hermit. i did suggest to hermit to stop interacting in cov because of your moronic chat rants about hermit being homophobic. hermit first introduced me to cov in 1998. before i even met him, he raved on and on about lucifer and cov. i remember we were standing at a gas station in oregon and he explained the word 'meme' to me. he said cov was the future. how you lot turned against him. i also remember the way he treated you at the virian meet at his place. you were like a brother to him. the way you(and some others) have been treating him is unacceptable and reflects on the kind of shit you are.... hermit and i have always had differences..he is a lot of things..he was my best friend during a time when i needed one and in some sense he always will be a friend to me. after the crap you dished out about him on chat...and behind his back... why the fuck are you trying to reach out to him again and again? if a man doesnt have loyalty, he is nothing more than a piece of shit. this place doesnt deserve hermit. so stop.


This is what Trollmaid is really here for, and in all other regards a clueless child. Oh wait, she said, "fuck", so its okay now to just call her the stupid cunt she really is. I see she's Hermit's champion troll in shining armor in his absence now. I wonder if he actually agreed to that.
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Re:Alan Turing and Harvey Milk - gay icons.
« Reply #14 on: 2010-07-10 13:41:46 »
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right. whatever.

moving on..i take it that you concede re milk.


Quote from: MoEnzyme on 2010-07-10 13:24:51   


Quote from: Trollmaid on 2010-07-10 12:23:45   

secondly, you are a fucking moron for trying to 'call out' to hermit. i did suggest to hermit to stop interacting in cov because of your moronic chat rants about hermit being homophobic. hermit first introduced me to cov in 1998. before i even met him, he raved on and on about lucifer and cov. i remember we were standing at a gas station in oregon and he explained the word 'meme' to me. he said cov was the future. how you lot turned against him. i also remember the way he treated you at the virian meet at his place. you were like a brother to him. the way you(and some others) have been treating him is unacceptable and reflects on the kind of shit you are.... hermit and i have always had differences..he is a lot of things..he was my best friend during a time when i needed one and in some sense he always will be a friend to me. after the crap you dished out about him on chat...and behind his back... why the fuck are you trying to reach out to him again and again? if a man doesnt have loyalty, he is nothing more than a piece of shit. this place doesnt deserve hermit. so stop.

This is what Trollmaid is really here for, and in all other regards a clueless child. Oh wait, she said, "fuck", so its okay now to just call her the stupid cunt she really is. I see she's Hermit's champion troll in shining armor in his absence now. I wonder if he actually agreed to that.
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