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Blunderov
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Libya
« on: 2011-02-22 02:08:20 »
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[Blunderov] Two nights ago I was playing chess online. My opponent asked where I was from and I replied 'South Africa'. I then asked him 'Where are you from?' He replied 'Libya'. So, thinking to be oblique, I said 'Good luck with your future!' He said 'Thanks' and at that point his connection failed, never to return. I suppose that must have been the moment when Gadaffi pulled the plug.

There is a horrorshow playing itself out in Libya. We must hope that the revolution succeeds and that the regime will be punished for it's excessive response as well all it's previous abuses. Needless to say, the West has hands covered in blood and oil too, and is most alarmed that it may be required to explain 40 years of callous expediency to an actual democracy.

Lenin's Tomb



A regime in mortal freefall

22 February 2011, 02:48:55

The Gadaffi regime is prepared to fight to the last drop of blood to crush the revolution. This isn't new. He and his Free Officer allies have always hammered opposition with ruthless efficiency - the public execution has been a centrepiece of the regime's repertoire since serious challenges first emerged in the 1980s. What is new is the level of escalation demanded of the dictatorship. When they couldn't rely on the police and army to crush the protesters, they turned to mercenaries to butcher them in their hundreds. The massacres have continued today, just enough to keep the regime entrenched in the capital, even as large swathes of Libya are declared liberated. To deal with those liberated and nearly-liberated populations, the regime ordered the army to carry out air strikes. The divisions in the state have been sufficient to send soldiers and police to the protesters' side, and a number of soldiers who refused to carry out air strikes have taken their planes to Malta and sought refuge. The army has abandoned the border, leaving it to the control of People's Committees. Benghazi, where the regime had been totally defeated and sent packing, was set to be the target of vengeful air strikes tonight - except that two of the planes ordered to attack reportedly landed in the city, the pilots refusing to drop their payload. The city has been declared safe for now. Even at the Libyan embassy in London, staff joined anti-Gadaffi protests.

The surreal atmosphere in the presidential palace is communicated in dispatches from defecting officers. "I am the one who created Libya," Gadaffi reportedly said, "and I will be the one to destroy it." Last night, one of Gadaffi's thuggish sons - an alumnus of the London School of Economics, as well as a close friend of Prince Andrew and Lord Mandelson - threatened civil war if people didn't go home and stop protesting. They've cut off the internet and the landlines, and banned foreign journalists in order to be able to carry out massacres under the cover of secrecy. This is a catastrophic lashing out by a regime in mortal freefall. It is seeking, in effect, a blood tribute in compensation for its lost authority.

Even at this late hour, it would be foolish to underestimate Gadaffi's ability to just hang on, to clench Libya in a rigor mortis grip. As crazed as he manifestly is, he has demonstrated considerable shrewdness in his time. For example, as soon as the Islamist opposition started become a real threat to his regime in the late 1990s, he started to look for ways to be accepted by the US-led caste of 'good guys'. The collapse of the USSR as a supplier of military hardware, trade, and ideological and moral leadership for Third Worldist states, would also have had something to do with this. The transition was made easier after 2001, and completed in 2004 partially at the best of Anglo-American oil. Gadaffi went so far, in his attempts to win over his erstwhile opponents, as to participate in anti-Islamist counterinsurgency operations in the Philippines with international support, lavish intelligence on US agencies and even compensate the victims of Lockerbie for a crime that Libya had not committed. The Bush administration might still have resisted such serenading were it not for the eager rush of European capital into Tripoli. So, Bush and Blair turned it into a story of Gadaffi seeing the light and giving up his non-existent WMD programmes, which charade Gadaffi duly participated in. This whole sequence of events was bizarre and improbable, but it worked: the subsequent oil contracts, amid a global oil price spike produced by Bush's wars, made him and his regime very wealthy. He was also able to hang opponents in public under the pretext of a fight against 'radical Islamists'. Joining the camp of American client dictatorships enabled Gadaffi to survive until this moment.

It has also ensured that the big guns are on his side now that he faces this potentially fatal challenge to his regime. Because the trouble for the US and UK governments in this revolt is that they really, really don't want Gadaffi to fall. Gadaffi is someone with whom they can do business. By contrast, the National Front for the Salvation of Libya, long a leading element in the resistance, is less likely to be so pliable. They US and UK invested too much in Gadaffi to lose him now, not least military hardware, the very weapons of repression which they knew full well would be used for the primary goal of keeping him in power. That is why the phrases on the lips of US and European ambassadors and statespersons are so mealy-mouthed. Hillary Clinton's berating of Libya's government for "unacceptable" levels of violence has approximately the same passion and conviction as a school marm telling off a child for running with scissors. These people, the caretakers, intellectuals, politicos and lackeys of empire, have spent more than two decades telling us that they were outraged by every drop of blood spilt by dictatorships, that they were if anything overly eager in their solicitations for democracy and human rights, messianic to a fault. This never had a moment's plausibility, but it has never looked as vile and sinister as it does now, amid a genuinely heroic revolutionary democratic struggle.

Copyleft of Lenin's Tomb


« Last Edit: 2011-02-22 02:13:37 by Blunderov » Report to moderator   Logged
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Re:Libya
« Reply #1 on: 2011-02-22 02:20:02 »
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[Blunderov] Just seen on al Jazeera:

"Libya's deputy ambasssador to UN calls for Gadaffi to step down".

[Bl.] Various Libyan diplomats have resigned too. Good for them. The behaviour of Gadaffi is indefensible.

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Re:Libya
« Reply #2 on: 2011-02-22 17:20:58 »
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Had a little chatty in #virus with Lucifer and Sat. Blunderov's spoiled chess game shall be avenged!

http://www.churchofvirus.org/bbs/index.php?board=69;action=chatlog2;channel=%23virus;date=2011-02-22;time=14:41;start=0;max=63

14:41:30     Lucifer   
Lucifer (~david.mcf@[death to spam].66.244.232.254) has joined #virus

14:41:30   ChanServ   
Mode change [+o Lucifer] on #virus by ChanServ

14:41:35     Lucifer   arrr
14:41:43     Sat   avast
14:42:43   MoEnzyme   ahoy, Lucifer!
14:42:52     Lucifer   Yo, Mo!
14:43:10     Lucifer   how goes the battle?
14:43:22     Sat   Mo 1 Crabs 3
14:43:30   MoEnzyme   ah, yeah. Libya is the next domino to fall, just waiting.
14:43:54     Lucifer   that's a good bet
14:44:08     Sat   How about Yemen or Baharain?
14:44:12     MoEnzyme   My secret forces of insurrection are slowly taking over the world on regieme at a time.
14:44:27     Sat   Mo's sooo Illuminatti
14:44:29 MoEnzyme   those will take a little longer. I think Libya is next.
14:44:44     Sat   I gues Shrub was right.
14:44:47     Sat   * Sat grins
14:44:51     Lucifer   heh that's what I was thinking
14:44:58     Lucifer   Dubya is vindicated!
14:44:58     Sat   ^8
14:45:01     Sat   lol
14:45:03     Lucifer   ^8
14:46:03     Sat   And since Mo claims it's his plan we know know the mind behind the Neocon Conspiracy!
14:46:18     Lucifer   diabolical!
14:46:18   MoEnzyme   Although according to http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/20110212_WOC160.gif Yemen is pretty high on the list.
14:47:26   MoEnzyme   I know!
14:48:22   MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme and googlebot have been keeping our NeoCon credentials top secret . . . until NOW Now that it's too late for the sheeple of the world to resist our evil influence.
14:48:26   googlebot   When I was a kid my favorite relative was Uncle Caveman. After school we'd all go play in his cave, and every once in a while he would eat one of us. It wasn't until later that I found out that Uncle Caveman was a bear.
14:48:35   MoEnzyme   MuuuuuuuuuaaaaaHaaaaaaaaHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!
14:49:57     Lucifer   all hail the man behind the curtain!
14:50:20     Lucifer   * Lucifer bows before the Mighty Mo
14:50:40     Sat   * Sat grovels
14:51:18   MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme throw scraps from the table to Sat and Lucifer, saving the juiciest leftover for googlebot!
14:51:20   googlebot   If any man says he hates war more than I do, he better have a knife, that's all I have to say.
14:51:50     Lucifer   today the Squid enjoyed a slice of ham and commented how much he likes "pig juice"
14:52:01     Sat   * Sat likes pi jiuce too
14:52:08   MoEnzyme   mmmmmmmmmmm, pig juice! Yummy!
14:52:17     Sat   I like cow juice as well
14:55:54   MoEnzyme   Gadafi has already lost the eastern half of the country, the entire foreign diplomatic corps, and lots of his police and military have defected. It's just a question of how much pathetic tenacity he has in him before he accepts the inevitable.
14:56:45     Sat   * Sat experiences deja Mo
14:56:54   MoEnzyme   So Libya is the next one. Yemen could be soon behind.
14:56:55   MoEnzyme   http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/20110212_WOC160.gif
14:56:59   MoEnzyme   heh, Sat
14:57:34   Sat   We're definitely much better conversationalists in #virus.
14:58:09   MoEnzyme   Well, I'm still getting used to demonpop. It's a different crowd.
14:58:20     Sat   * Sat nods
14:58:24   MoEnzyme   though seemingly compatible.
14:58:32     Sat   it is the internet
15:03:22   MoEnzyme   Blunderov is all over this Arab uprising thing. I suppose it's his continent anyways, but apparently he was playing internet chess with someone in Libya when Gadafi pulled the plug . . . http://www.churchofvirus.org/bbs/index.php?board=69;action=display;threadid=43683
15:03:58     Lucifer   Blunderov directly oppressed by Gadaffi!
15:04:07     Lucifer   no chess for you!
15:04:22     Sat   denied!
15:04:27   MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme nods
15:04:34   MoEnzyme   denied!
15:05:07   MoEnzyme   Gadafi must die for ruining Blunderov's chess game!!
15:05:28   MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme punches some commands into his secret computer to make it so.
15:07:29   MoEnzyme   Heh, when they come for him, he'll be asking things like "Is this because I bombed my fellow countrymen with military aircraft?" And they'll be like, "hell no! Far Worse, PUNK!! You ruined Blunderov's chess game!!!!"
15:08:06   MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme nudges googlebot to follow through on the threat.
15:08:07     Sat   fear the wrath of the interupted chess master.
15:08:08   googlebot   Sometimes I think the world has gone completely mad. And then I think, "Aw, who cares?" And then I think, "Hey, what's for supper?"
15:09:00     Lucifer   very insightful, googlebot
15:09:03   googlebot   ask the rhino
15:09:15     Lucifer   How did googlebot know I was thinking of the rhino?
15:09:19   googlebot   super
« Last Edit: 2011-02-22 22:07:21 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Libya
« Reply #3 on: 2011-02-22 22:01:39 »
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More chatty news from #virus IRC

http://www.churchofvirus.org/bbs/index.php?board=;action=chatlog2;channel=%23virus;date=2011-02-22;time=18:00;start=0;max=12

18:01:29   MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme is listening to Evening news on NPR http://www.pbs.org/newshour/
18:04:43   MoEnzyme   Defiant Gadhafi Appears on TV, Spurns Calls to Step Down - "As international outcry over Libya's violent response to demonstrations grows, Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi appeared on state television to reject calls for him to step down. He blamed outside forces for the unrest and said protesting youth had been given "hallucination pills."
18:05:01   MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme ships more "hallucination pills" to Libya.
18:05:19   MoEnzyme   http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2011/02/libyan-government-cracks-down-on-protests-foreigners-evacuate.html
18:05:51   MoEnzyme   Moammar Gadhafi appeared on Libyan state TV from Tripoli to defy calls for him to step down, saying, "This is my country and the country of my grandfathers ... we have irrigated it with our blood" and "we are more qualified than those rats, those agents of foreign intelligence services," according to a translator.
18:06:05   MoEnzyme   "We defied America and its power," he said, "we defied the world atomic powers. We have won. We became victorious."
18:06:21   MoEnzyme   "I have paid the price of my remaining here," he said, recollecting his "martyred" grandfather. "It is not possible that I'll leave this place. I will be a martyr until the end."
18:07:09   MoEnzyme   fucking bastard ruined Blunderov's chess game. Damn right he's gonna be martyred!
18:07:28   MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme and googlebot chuckle at their evil cospiracy.
18:07:30   googlebot   
The memories of my family outings are still a source of strength to me. I remember we'd all pile into the car---I forget what kind it was---and drive and drive. I'm not sure where we'd go, but I think there were some trees there. The smell of something was strong in the air as we played whatever sport we played. I remember a bigger, older guy we called 'Dad.' We'd eat some stuff, or not, and then I think we went home. I guess some things never leave you.
18:14:48     Sat   If Gadhafi is good for anything it's inspiring SNL skits.
18:15:07   MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme nods
« Last Edit: 2011-02-22 22:09:49 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Libya
« Reply #4 on: 2011-02-23 06:38:17 »
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Quote from: MoEnzyme on 2011-02-22 17:20:58   

Had a little chatty in #virus with Lucifer and Sat. Blunderov's spoiled chess game shall be avenged!

[Blunderov] He shall smart for this! Fly My pretties, fly!

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Re:Libya
« Reply #5 on: 2011-02-25 10:02:02 »
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It's looking like the only question remaining is how long, bloody and painful Gaddafi is going to make this for his fellow citizens. While Mubarak seemed to be in some denial, his delusion didn't seem to compare to Gaddafi's ability to invent loopy stories and lash out with insane brutality.

Al Jazeera Feb 23, 2011


Quote:
A day after Muammar Gaddafi threatened protesters with death in a televised speech, an army commander tells Al Jazeera that his forces are with the people, not the Libyan leader.

The town of Misurata, in western Libya, has reportedly fallen to the opposition, and much of the east seems to be controlled by pro-democracy protesters.

Laurence Lee reports on the latest events.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OispaOm8r4
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Re:Libya
« Reply #6 on: 2011-02-28 12:42:18 »
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After 40 years in power, I wonder if Gaddafi didn't fall victim to his social status. I've heard lots of stories about how he seemed "insane", and ungrounded from reality and these accounts brought to mind a recent piece I read about how high social status can over time undercut and diminish social intelligence.

http://mindfulconstruct.com/2010/11/24/is-your-social-status-hurting-your-emotional-intelligence/#more-7000
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Re:Libya
« Reply #7 on: 2011-03-02 08:17:59 »
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This current news is certainly fleeting, but it is clear that unlike Mubarak, Gaddafi is not going down without a seriously bloody fight. For a while it sounded like he was taking some cities back, but for the time being Brega seems to be back in control of the revolutionaries. I can't see how Gaddafi is ever going to recover. Even if he somehow holds on, he'll be even more of an international pariah than ever before and greatly diminished in wealth and power.

Fierce battles rage in Libya
Pro- and anti-government forces fight for control of strategic towns including Brega, which houses a key oil facility.

Last Modified: 02 Mar 2011 11:14 GMT

Quote:
Forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan leader, are reported to have regained control of two strategic towns in the country's northwest, even as opposition fighters in the east prepare to march on the capital, Tripoli.

The claims about the fall of Gharyan and Sabratha on Wednesday came as fighting raged between pro- and anti-government forces over the control of the eastern town of Brega, the headquarters of several oil companies, and Gaddafi appeared on state television once again.

"They tried to take Brega this morning, but they failed," Mustafa Gheriani, a spokesman for the February 17th Coalition, an anti-government group, told the Reuters news agency.

"It is back in the hands of the revolutionaries. He is trying to create all kinds of psychological warfare to keep these cities on edge."


full article:http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/20113242554921501.html
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Re:Libya
« Reply #8 on: 2011-03-04 10:15:57 »
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Lately, with all of the protests, revolutions, etc. going on in the Mideast, Al Jazeera has been gaining significant viewer/readership in the US. Even Hillary Clinton has given them an official nod as a credible news source. So I'll post my next couple of pieces from their english news website.

It looks like the opposition is at least keeping Gaddafi busy even in his home base of Tripoli, with a recent if somewhat brief protest of about a thousand after Friday prayers. Also Gaddafi still has at least one friend outside of Libya in Hugo Chavez, who made an offer to mediate. I somehow doubt there is any graceful way out for Gaddafi now since, unlike Mubarak, he's started seriously killing his fellow Libyans, promised more bloodshed and has declared his intentions to either prevail or die a martyr. However it seems that the Arab League is at least considering the offer.

Enjoy,
-Mo

Fresh protests hit Libyan capital
Government forces reportedly fire tear gas on protesters rallying against Gaddafi following Friday prayers.

Simon Hooper Last Modified: 04 Mar 2011 13:09 GMT


Quote:
At least 1,000 people protesting against the rule of Muammar Gaddafi have taken to the streets of Tripoli, the Libyan capital, raising fears of fresh conflict between anti-government protesters and loyalist forces.

Protests called by the opposition began on Friday when worshippers streamed out of a mosque in the centre of the city, chanting "Gaddaf is the enemy of God", witnesses said.

"This is the end for Gaddafi. It's over. Forty years of crimes are over," Faragha Salim, an engineer at the protest, told the Reuters news agency.

Pro-Gaddafi forces fired tear gas at protesters, the AP news agency said, saying at least five cannisters were fired at the crowd in the district of Tajoura in the capital.

"They fired teargas. I heard shooting. People are scattering," a reporter from the Reuters news agency in Tajoura said.

Anita McNaught, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Tripoli, said it was not possible to immediately verify the reports, but that there was a heavy security presence in the city.

full story:http://english.aljazeera.net/video/africa/2011/03/20113410441210846.html

--------------------

Chavez gambles on Gaddafi diplomacy
Hugo Chavez could yet emerge as a respected peacemaker over Libya, or find himself on "the wrong side of history".

Simon Hooper Last Modified: 04 Mar 2011 13:09 GMT


Quote:
Hugo Chavez's offer to mediate in the Libyan crisis marks the Venezuelan president's latest attention-grabbing foray onto the world stage yet analysts warn that he risks "ending up on the wrong side of history" if he stands by Muammar Gaddafi's internationally discredited regime.

While the Arab League says it is studying Chavez's proposal, both the US and France were quick to dismiss any role for a controversial character who has been almost alone among world leaders in refusing to condemn the embattled Libyan leader.

Chavez, a past recipient of Gaddafi's human rights prize, has said it would be "hypocritical" of him to criticise a man he once called "one of the great leaders of this century".

But Nikolas Kozloff, author of several books on South America including Hugo Chavez: Oil, Politics and the Challenges to the United States, told Al Jazeera that any mediation initiative involving Chavez would be compromised from the start.

"He’s a very suspect mediator because he's pro-Gaddafi, so I don't think it's appropriate," Kozloff said.

full story: http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/03/201134121327738678.html

--------------------

Hillary Clinton Calls Al Jazeera "Real News," Criticizes US Media (Video)
Huffington Post

First Posted: 03/ 3/11 12:57 PM Updated: 03/ 4/11 08:48 AM

Quote:
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said on Wednesday that Al Jazeera is gaining more prominence in the U.S. because it offers "real news" -- something she said American media were falling far short of doing.

full story and video: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/03/hillary-clinton-calls-al-_n_830890.html
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Re:Libya
« Reply #9 on: 2011-03-09 09:10:51 »
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4762046

Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's plane leaves Libya - report 
Edited on Wed Mar-09-11 06:35 AM by Turborama
Source: Herald Sun

A PRIVATE plane belonging to embattled Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi with unknown passengers aboard has crossed Greek airspace en route to Egypt , a Greek defense ministry source said.

"A private plane of Gaddafi has crossed Greek airspace en route to Egypt," the ministry source said.

"We do not know who is on board."

A Greek air force source said the plane was a Libyan Airlines Falcon 900 that normally carries VIPs, though the pilot denied that dignitaries were on board.

Read more: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/libyan-leader-muammar-gaddafis-plane-leaves-libya-report/story-e6frf7lf-1226018678672
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Re:Libya + Saudi Arabia
« Reply #10 on: 2011-03-10 17:21:25 »
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This can't be good !

Fritz


Red Alert: Saudi Police Fire On Protesters In Oil Hub

Source STRATFOR



March 10, 2011

Saudi police have reportedly opened gunfire on and launched stun grenades at several hundred protesters March 10 rallying in the heavily Shiite-populated city of Qatif in Saudi Arabia’s oil-rich Eastern Province.

The decision to employ violence in this latest crackdown comes a day before Friday prayers, after which various Saudi opposition groups were planning to rally in the streets. Unrest has been simmering in the Saudi kingdom over the past couple weeks, with mostly Sunni youth, human rights activists and intellectuals in Riyadh and Jeddah campaigning for greater political freedoms, including the call for a constitutional monarchy. A so-called “Day of Rage” of protests across the country has been called for March 11 by Facebook groups Hanyn (Nostalgia) Revolution and the Free Youth Coalition following Friday prayers.

What is most critical to Saudi Arabia, however, is Shiite-driven unrest in the country’s Eastern Province. Shiite activists and clerics have become more vocal in recent weeks in expressing their dissent and have been attempting to dodge Saudi security forces. The Saudi regime has been cautious thus far, not wanting to inflame the protests with a violent crackdown but at the same time facing a growing need to demonstrate firm control.

Yet in watching Shiite unrest continue to simmer in the nearby island of Bahrain, the Saudi royals are growing increasingly concerned about the prospect of Shiite uprisings cascading throughout the Persian Gulf region, playing directly into the Iranian strategic interest of destabilizing its U.S.-allied Arab neighbors. By showing a willingness to use force early, the Saudi authorities are likely hoping they will be able to deter people from joining the protests, but such actions could just as easily embolden the protesters.

There is a strong potential for clashes to break out March 11 between Saudi security forces and protesters, particularly in the vital Eastern Province. Saudi authorities have taken tough security measures in the Shiite areas of the country by deploying about 15,000 national guardsmen to thwart the planned demonstrations by attempting to impose a curfew in critical areas. Energy speculators are already reacting to the heightened tensions in the Persian Gulf region, but unrest in cities like Qatif cuts directly to the source of the threat that is fueling market speculation: The major oil transit pipelines that supply the major oil port of Ras Tanura — the world’s largest, with a capacity of 5 million barrels per day — go directly through Qatif. Visit STRATFOR to learn more »
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Re:Libya
« Reply #11 on: 2011-03-18 11:55:00 »
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http://www.churchofvirus.org/bbs/index.php?board=;action=chatlog2;channel=%23virus;date=2011-03-18;time=09:36;start=0;max=55

09:36:01   MoEnzyme   
MoEnzyme (~every1hz@[death to spam].99-10-220-20.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) has joined #virus

09:38:28   Sat   Morning Mo
09:38:43   MoEnzyme   Morning, Sat.
09:40:25   MoEnzyme   Heh, Gadhafi announces a "cease fire" immediately after the UN authorized military action against him.
09:40:26   MoEnzyme   http://www.voanews.com/english/news/africa/north/Under-No-Fly-Zone-Pressure-Libya-Sets-Cease-Fire--118237929.html
09:40:37   Sat   pussy!
09:40:41   Sat   * Sat chuckles
09:40:59   MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme predicts a divided Libya.
09:41:16   Sat   * Sat predicts a new puppet
09:41:24   MoEnzyme   like Vietnam and Korea before.
09:41:42   Sat   There's too much oil a stake
09:42:00   Sat   He'll be tried for crimes against humanity, etc.
09:42:07   CruelOctopus   Yeah, the nastiness is far from over.
09:42:17   Sat   Like Saddam
09:42:38   CruelOctopus   He's going to be hard to dislodge without an actual invasion, which is a way bigger commitment than a no-fly zone.
09:42:46   Sat   * Sat nods
09:42:49   MoEnzyme   I think Gadhafi is planning on his own "oil for food" plan to prop up what remains of his dictatorship.
09:43:04   CruelOctopus   Yeah, maybe so.
09:43:17   Sat   Well at least the Obama admin didn't go all unilateral.
09:43:25   CruelOctopus   A divided country might be quite likely.
09:43:33   MoEnzyme   yeah I don't think anyone has the stomach for a ground war. But the resolution if enforced can probably stop his latest offensive.
09:43:51   Sat   Wel could bomb his ass right into the stone age.
09:44:02   Sat   and foster further revolution against him.
09:44:13   MoEnzyme   yeah, Obama played it right. He couldn't be seen taking a leadership role, or it wouldn't have happened at all.
09:44:17   CruelOctopus   Maybe. I'm not sure how much he was relying on ground power... the no-fly zone won't affect that.
09:44:20   Sat   No fly zones require extensive bombing compaigns
09:44:33   Sat   they take out all the military infrastructure they can.
09:44:56   CruelOctopus   Ah, good point. They have to toast the anti-aircraft capabilities.
09:45:16   MoEnzyme   A lot of this will depend on Egypt in the long run, and at the moment they are trying to deal with their internal issues with a new government.
09:45:28   Sat   which means all communications infrastructure they can get as well
09:46:04   Sat   One can imagine extending the o fly to no tank as well
09:46:18   Sat   We totally have the tech to take out tanks from a safe distance
09:46:31   CruelOctopus   yeah.
09:46:42   MoEnzyme   Well, they resolution is pretty broad, more than just a no fly zone, but "all necessary measures" to protect civilian population.
09:46:53   CruelOctopus   That sounds promising.
09:46:56   MoEnzyme   Everything short of authorizing ground troops.
09:47:10   Sat   which could likely mean pummeling his miltary from the air.
09:47:18   MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme nods
09:47:24   Sat   and letting the locals take control
09:47:43   CruelOctopus   we can hope.
09:47:47   Sat   If I was Gahdafi I'd me finding a bunker 2 miles below the sand
09:47:48   Sat   lol
09:48:04   Sat   or looking to disappear somehow
09:48:19   MoEnzyme   Well, he obviously still has a lot of people loyal to him, which is why I think it will end up being a divided nation.
09:48:19   Sat   they'll target him if he doesn't give up.
09:48:25   CruelOctopus   Yeah, I think a discreet exit might be his best option.
09:48:54   CruelOctopus   Some of that loyalty may dissipate now.
09:49:15   Sat   These dictators forget that the only reason they have power is because it is our interest.
09:49:24   Sat   We change our minds and they're fucked.
09:49:31   Sat   No one has the tech we do.
09:49:53   MoEnzyme   Once Egypt sorts out their domestic issues, I predict they will act as protector/advocate for the eastern Lybia along with Nato forces with the blessings of the Arab League.
09:50:16   Sat   All the military toys we toss them are like musket rifles compares to ak-47s
09:50:45   Sat   alrighty. time for a meeting. bbiab
09:50:49   CruelOctopus   cya
« Last Edit: 2011-03-18 13:38:30 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Libya
« Reply #12 on: 2011-03-23 01:06:12 »
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A few thoughts I've bantered around Facebook which I decided to consolidate here:

I think it was good that we stopped Gaddafi, but I fear mission creep. I've heard some buzz in the media, especially from UK sources about how it wouldn't be so bad if we happened to kill Gaddafi somehow in the process. And while that might sound good from a simplistic point of view, it doesn't mean the same thing as it would if the Libyans take care of him themselves. We've stopped him from murdering his way out of reform; I think that's as much good as we foreigners can possibly do. The rest of it is up to the Libyans.

I heard an interesting point on NPR this morning, in re:why Libya? Why aren't we going into some of these other Arab states where the leaders are crushing dissent. The answer: Al Jazeera. Apparently one of their reporters got killed at the hands of Gaddafi thugs and ever since then they've stepped up their coverage in Libya. It's ironic even, that some of these Arab states busily murdering their own dissenters or even helping neighboring states kill their dissenters, have actually voted in the Arab League for this intervention in Libya. Because that's where the cameras are, and if the conflict lasts longer there, that's where the cameras will stay.

And of course the other part of the story is that Gaddafi doesn't have any friends in the Arab League. He's pissed off all of his arab neighbors one way or another in his bid to become the emperor of Africa. So they were more than willing to cast their hypocritical votes against him both in revenge and self interest. Talk about doing the right thing for the wrong reasons! I'm still thinking it's a good thing that we stopped Gaddafi, but it interests me endlessly to understand the cynical power plays which got us there in the first place. It's a strange, mad, loopy world that way sometimes.

anonymous FB: So why don't his Arab neighbors sort him out?

@anonymous FB: probably because 1) they don't have the kick-ass war toys we have, and 2) they are sorting out their own domestic issues at the moment. I'm thinking if Egypt can pull it together soon as it seems that they are, perhaps they will provide the Libyan dissent with the help on the ground that will finally topple Gaddafi. Personally I don't think westerners are the right people to deliver that final victory, but the Egyptians would fit that role in a much more neighborly way.

anonymous FB: We get to try out our weapons of destruction, the arms manufacturers get new orders, Obama gets to prove he's tough, the US gets to extend our influence in the oil region, the other Arab leaders get to leave the killing to the infidels. The rest is puppies and roses for the media suckers.

@anonymous FB: I can't really argue with that conclusion. I would only clarify that 1) Obama was already tough when he took out those pirates off the Somali coast and saved the day early in his presidency, but yes, he's now toughx2. 2) I think it would be a mistake for the western coalition (infidels) to actually take out Gaddafi. As I've said above, that part of the operation should be left to his arab brothers and sisters. and 3) puppies and roses are good things, of course.

anonymous FB#2: The Arab League couldn't possibly sort him out with a straight face. They are not much better, or opposed to autocrats who terrorize their own people. I agree the Arabs should have sent their troops in at the beginning to stop it. US troops in Arab lands, whatever the mission tends to inflame their loony fringe.

@anonymous FB#2: I'm thinking the final solution re:Gadaffi will mostly come down to 1)the Libyan resistance, 2) Tunisia, and especially 3)Egypt. The rest of the Arab league was simply the international political cover to stop Gaddafi and establish the no-fly zone.
« Last Edit: 2011-03-23 01:57:37 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Libya
« Reply #13 on: 2011-03-27 12:02:01 »
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Speaking of mission creep; this can't be good if the puppet and master are now fighting in Russia over Libya. Wonder what the global fallout will be over this radioactive explosion.

Cheers

Fritz


Putin and Medvedev spar over Libya

Source: CNN
Author: Jill Dougherty
Date: 2011.03.23



Paris (CNN) -- In a rare public spat, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev criticized his political mentor, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, for Putin's comments over the use of force against Libya.

It all started Monday, when Putin visited the town of Votkinsk, where a large defense plant that produces missiles (including nuclear intercontinental ballistic missiles) is located.

Criticizing the United Nations Security Council resolution authorizing a no-fly zone over Libya and military action to back it up, Putin called it "obviously incomplete and flawed."

Putin said it's clear that "it allows anyone to do anything they want -- to take any actions against a sovereign state."

"It resembles a medieval appeal for a crusade in which somebody calls upon somebody to go to a certain place and liberate it," he said.
Preparing for battle in Libya
Inside bombed Libyan military base
Gadhafi: 'We will be victorious'

On Thursday, acting on instructions from Medvedev, Russia abstained from the U.N. Security Council resolution imposing a no-fly zone over Libya but did not veto it, something that Putin obviously thought should have happened.

A few hours later Medvedev weighed in, scolding Putin's comments, without using the prime minister's name.

"It is absolutely inexcusable to use expressions that, in effect, lead to a clash of civilizations -- such as 'crusades,' and so on. That is unacceptable," he said.

Otherwise "everything could end up in far worse shape than it is now. It is important to remember this."

Medvedev went on: "All that is now happening in Libya is the result of the appalling behavior of the Libyan leadership and the crimes it committed against its own people."

He did not instruct his diplomats to veto the resolution, he said, "for one reason: I do not consider this resolution to be wrong. Moreover, I believe that this resolution generally reflects our understanding of what is going on in Libya."

The public smackdown was political catnip in Moscow. The two men, whom Russians refer to as "the tandem," both could be candidates for president in 2012 but neither is announcing yet he will run. Speculation is rife over who might go first -- and when.

Medvedev has developed a close working relationship with President Barack Obama but Putin has a prickly relationship with Washington. At the factory Monday, Putin took aim not only at Medvedev's refusal to use his veto, but at the U.S. leadership:

"In Bill Clinton's times," Putin said, "Yugoslavia and Belgrade were bombed. Bush sent armed forces into Afghanistan. A far-fetched and totally false pretext was used to invade Iraq, and the entire Iraqi leadership was eliminated, even children in Saddam Hussein's family died.

"And now, it's Libya's turn -- under the pretext of protecting civilians. But it's the civilian population who dies during those airstrikes against (Libyan) territory. Where is the logic and the conscience? There is neither."
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Where there is the necessary technical skill to move mountains, there is no need for the faith that moves mountains -anon-
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