...Joe, how can we fight an idea? with guns? the islamic crazies will not stop. our best bet was to slowly erode their nuttiness with the capitalist temptations and principles...though admittedly shallow, a far sight better than suicide and killing.
...can you name one force that has successfully suppressed terrorism/guerilla warfare?
[Jonathan]
The British in...
South Africa (Boers) Northern Ireland (fought IRA to a standstill) Kenya (stopped the MauMau)
There are plenty of other examples.
I agree with both you and Joe. Annihilate as many Islamic fighters and operators (punish aggression) whilst offering massive inducements to compliance (reward cooperation). It is classic game theory.
Regarding resentment of the USA, here you can find several dozen of cases of "USA interventions" which might have generated resentment. As the page itself says, you don't have to believe everything you hear. Just take it as a starting point and check. http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa02.html
The page before that http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa.html also contains links to "USA Backed coups", "USA UN vetos" and resented actions of US companies, among other things.
This site is not restricted to the USA. They have sections for almost all democratic countries, which give us more than a hint that our inside view of democracy is not always the same as the outside view.
I have seen the pictures at Abu Ghraib, both the recent ones and the surpassingly more brutal pictures taken during Saddam's reign. I have also seen the Nick Berg beheading - as have many Americans who are computer connected. My resolve has been steeled, not weakened; for the sake of civilized society, we MUST NOT allow these kinds of people to perdure and to impose their wills upon what they aspire to; a global Caliphate Ummah. Remember that India and Southeast Asia were willing to leave them alone, but they immigrated, and conquered, and subjugated, in waves of violence and fanaticism. This has been their history, and we cannot , for our own sakes, and for the sakes of those yet to come, allow the same pattern to continue. These Wahhab/Qutb zealots believe in two worlds; the Dar-al-Islam (World of Islam), and the Dar-al Harb (World of War). We are presently showing them that, contrary to this belief, they cannot hope to launch attacks upon the rest of the world ! from their Middle Eastern base (Al Qaeda translates as The Base), while enjoying the peace of dictatorial domination at home. We must be the Strong Horse who is by necessity backed by those who wager their lives, families and futures in the region. Our position in Iraq is foursquare in the middle of the terrorist region, surrounded by Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia. If there is indeed a Grand Plan to rid the world of the rule of these despots, Syria (and Lebanon) will be next; then, using the Mediterranean ports which would be secured upon their fall, our then easily transported and resupplied troops would march east through Iran (with Afghanistan providing a backstop), and perhaps, if necessary, south through Saudi Arabia. Democratization would follow regime change, and, once Syria and Iran were out of the equation, there would be no further bordering nations from which significant numbers of Jihadis could flow. But make no mistake; this is a global struggle, against a global enemy that has chosen us as an enemy, and thus given us no choice but to succumb or respond. It will take many years for it to end. We cannot allow our will to be sapped by time or difficulty, for this is the only disaster that could conceivably defeat us.
---- [al Blunderov] Right, gotcha World domination by force of arms for really, really good reasons. Antinomianism rules! Pass my sword.
"I have seen the pictures at Abu Ghraib, both the recent ones and the surpassingly more brutal pictures taken during Saddam's reign. I have also seen the blasphemously contrived Nick Berg beheading - as have many Muslims who are computer connected. My resolve has been steeled, not weakened; for the sake of Islam, we MUST NOT allow these kinds of people to endure and to impose their wills upon what they aspire to; a global capitalist empire, the "American Century"...
...Islam would follow regime change, and, once Europe and Australia were out of the equation, there would be no further lapdog nations from which significant numbers of so called 'democrats' could flow."
The hubris police never sleeps. Never has, never will.
Blunderov: If these countries were not a source of terror around the world and brutality to their own people, such actions would not be necessary, nor would they be done. Peaceful cultural competition is greatly to be preferred; everybody wins, even when some cultures lose, because the parts that people want, people assimilate. However, when fanatical adherents of a dying culture insist upon violent convert-kill-or-enslave coercion (because, due to the inferiority of what they are trying to sell in the eyes of prospective buyers, they fail at the task of rational persuasion), they must be forcefully countered.
You want an oxymoron? The whole idea of 'imposing' freedom. Because that is what the US is doing now; toppling enslaving dictators and mullahs, organizing constitutional democracies, staying as long as necessary in order to ensure that the fledgling free society can provide secuity for kitself and its newly freed citizens - and leaving when asked.
You cannot name me one circumstance in which terrorism has succeeded.
Oh oh oh
In 1939 a series terrorist groups were formed called the Haganah, Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang. Their objective? To estalish their own homeland. Throught the post WWII 40s they commit a number of attrocities, including bombing of Arabs and assasination of British officials. Other attrocities included mass suicides, mail bombs to government buildings and attempted genocide.
Their total death count was greater than that of Al Queda, and they got what the homeland they wanted.
It's called Israel, and there are still members of the terrorist groups involved in their policy making. The terrorism continued well into the 80s.
Re:virus: Joe's complaint
« Reply #36 on: 2004-06-03 12:52:00 »
All this time I thought it was the Zionist movement dating back to the late 19th century along with the Balfour Declaration (1919) that were the impetus for the creation of the state of Israel. Of course, the Holocaust, and it's after effects, was another reason. However, the exodus and mass migration of Jews from Europe during WWII was often thwarted by the same countries, within the League of Nations, that approved of the creation of Palestine (which would become the State of Israel). In fact, many thousands of Jews who were fleeing the persecution of the Nazis were turned away from entering at Palestinian (read: Israeli) ports, as well as, US and British ports (signatories who approved of the creation of Palestine in the League of Nations).
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World domination by force of arms for
