Organizations that survive the loss of their leader do so because the leader was careful to make sure he wasn't necessary. This process usually makes the leader, and the organizaton, more and more popular.
The simplest way to do this is to start with an elected “board” and “chair”.
Example:
We can say that the top 5 members by reputation are the board and the #1 member is the chair.
The board makes all decisions by majority vote. Any member of the board can propose a decision. The chair can veto a decision, and organizes board meetings so that everyone on the board has an equal say. The chair is the “ostensible head” of the organization.
Decisions can include policy changes, website software updates, etc. The chair, with veto power, ultimately decides which sorts of decisions are within thwe realm of the board.
....Sean, regardless of how much you hate Joe's positions...we've had to learn over a long period of time, that flame wars are very detrimental, wasteful, and have never produced anything other than resentment, lots of wasted time mediating, and loss of freedom here on the CoV. since we are small, with a benevolent and wise dictator (Lucifer), it is relatively easy to recover quickly and completely...but one day this may not be the case.
....case in point: a guy riding the bus with the window open, enjoying the fresh air. he sees someone that wronged him severely and hurls a bottle out the window which hits his target on the head, and severely injures him. result:
1. he gets a satisfying revenge 2. target sues bus company 3. 350,000,000 people never get to enjoy a bus ride with an open window, a cool breeze, and feeling close to the world which he sees pass in front of him....ever again!
....thankfully we have no litigious lawyers operating within the CoV, so freedoms arent so easily taken away. but the b.s. that results from such situations inclines many here to contemplate previously unknown restrictions. this personal rage on your part which you mix with the CoV bandwidth, affects all of us. so if you must call Joe or anyone a "fucker" more than once or twice, or make fun of his mother(the revered hermit did it already for some reason, but at least he knew joe for quite some time...and joe bit the bait a bit too hard), do it via private email.
...above your potential frustration or hatred for someone or some idea....keep your love for the CoV in a place above it. if you cant, then I would see THAT as a reason for a temporary ban.
On Thu, 2004-05-27 at 02:00, Joe Dees wrote: > (Joe) Some examples of Irvken's subtle and scintillating commentary concerning me and my posts, from the most recent back, follow:
Yes Joe, these are personal attacks, and meant, you fucking quisling. There are no soldiers on your streets shooting dead your kids. Moderate away, I probably don't have the time to argue with a shit like you (and your corporate sponsors) anyway, but I can keep up the insults till I'm banned
_________________________________________________________________ Learn to simplify your finances and your life in Streamline Your Life from MSN Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0405streamline.armx
To be fair I have to silence (ban) you for a week for this personal attack.
I don't have time to put a technical ban in place now so please refrain from posting to the list or BBS until June 4.
David
----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Kenny" <seankenny@blueyonder.co.uk> To: <virus@lucifer.com> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 2:40 AM Subject: Re: Re:virus: Joe's complaint
> On Thu, 2004-05-27 at 02:00, Joe Dees wrote: > > (Joe) Some examples of Irvken's subtle and scintillating commentary concerning me and my posts, from the most recent back, follow: > > Yes Joe, these are personal attacks, and meant, you fucking quisling. > There are no soldiers on your streets shooting dead your kids. Moderate > away, I probably don't have the time to argue with a shit like you (and > your corporate sponsors) anyway, but I can keep up the insults till I'm > banned > > TTFN > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> >
Thank you. I acknowledge that we have had our difficulties and disagreements in the past, and this action bespeaks highly of your attempts, notwithstanding your (possible) personal feelings and past allegiances, to be as just and fair as humanly possible in your administration of this forum.
I do wish to note that irvken could not resist taking a post-ban swipe at me in the Diversion 3 thread, as follows:
On Fri, 2004-05-28 at 14:27, Joe Dees wrote: > Cowgirl, missionary, doggie-style, reverse cowgirl (in that order). Our supposed 'natural' position is doggie-style.
yeah, as if, is that with your mother?
Ok Ok, I'm going.
(Joe) Just to let you know, if you didn't know already...
Re:virus: Joe's complaint
« Reply #19 on: 2004-05-31 17:58:53 »
...Joe, dont get me wrong...i am NOT a partisan person or voter. if given a free choice i would elect any of the following: Howard Dean(D), Mr. Forbes(R), Wesley Clarke(R), maybe Bob Dole(R) and maybe John McCain(R).
...given this truthful statement, i reitterate that of any president past or present, i have a unique opinion about george w. : he is as crooked as crooked gets. i think his policies are 100% devoted to his corporate buddies, his family dynasty, and the families of his wealthy friends. if there are ANY americans he actually cares about, they are those similar to himself....rightwing xtian republicans who are well to do, have money, family and privelege. while previous presidents surely pandered to these interests as well, bush's devotion to these groups is about 10 fold more than the next worst president in our recent history. i have ZERO trust in him. not just because he has said "god spoke to me and told me that i must run for president", but because he lacks the character, the intelligence, the wisdom and the empathic understanding to be a leader.
...i consider him a murderer, a theif, a traitor, and a cad. he is NOT a self-made man, he is the spoiled, less than bright, offspring of a holier-than-thou family and good-ol' boys club. even amongst evil candidates he stands head and shoulders above the rest. i could name dozens of republican candidates which would make fine presidents....he's not even in the top 40 million i would wager.
I have several times in this forum declared that I would not be voting for Bush unless Al Qaeda tries to pull a Spanish Dhimmitude on us by engaging in a mass domestic attack just prior to the US election. The reaons I have given are that I am a social liberal, a fiscal conservative and a foreign policy realist, while I see Bush as also a foreign policy realist, but his socially conservative and fiscally irresponsible positions are politically unacceptable to me. Hardly agreeing with Bush on everything; in fact, only agreeing with him on one thing, the necessity to proactively pursue the war on terrorists.
Rhino: Your position seems to be approaching the one that the execrable Hermit formerly proposed; to morph this site from one in which these issues can be fairly and honestly debated into just another anti-Bush hate site like Smirking Chimp. This would, of course, mean that the CoV would devolve from a forum that studies memes into just another memetically infected site. Is this what you truly desire? If so, why? And why should even the assertion here of a differing position to be met, not with reasoned debate, but with censure? Is it because Jonathan is correct, and the opposition to such a position is logically, evidentially and intellectually bankrupt, and motivated solely by a surfeit of irrational emotion, and furthermore, becomes incensed when this inconvenient fact is pointed out? And I post other things besides politics here for the same reason that I post politics, and for the same reason, I suspect, that you also post both politics and other things; a judgment that they are interesting and informative. Of course, some people would prefer (to the point of major upset) that other people, or even themselves, not be made aware of some of the information that I reference, when that information clashes with their ideologically-driven memetic filters; this fact says more about them than it says about the references I post.
As far as Carlita goes, the liberal press is no myth. Once again, an extreme, rather than mainstream, source is quoted (Robert Parry of Consortium News) to 'prove' such an assertion. Of course, for extremists, all other positions must be seen as extreme themselves, and motivated by stupidity, ignorance, or malevolence, as a self-concept-preserving memetic necessity. I, not being extreme, prefer to reference a mainstream source such as the prestigious Pew Research Center survey, quoted in the admittedly liberal Editor & Publisher:
Published: May 23, 2004 4:00 PM EST NEW YORK Those convinced that liberals make up a disproportionate share of newsroom workers have long relied on Pew Research Center surveys to confirm this view, and they will not be disappointed by the results of Pew's latest study released today.
While most of the journalists, like many Americans, describe themselves as "moderate," a far higher number are "liberal" than in the general population.
At national organizations (which includes print, TV and radio), the numbers break down like this: 34% liberal, 7% conservative. At local outlets: 23% liberal, 12% conservative. At Web sites: 27% call themselves liberals, 13% conservatives.
This contrasts with the self-assessment of the general public: 20% liberal, 33% conservative.
The survey of 547 media professionals, completed this spring, is part of an important study released today by The Project for Excellence in Journalism and The Committee of Concerned Journalists, which mainly concerns more general issues related to newsrooms (an E&P summary will appear Monday).
While it's important to remember that most journalists in this survey continue to call themselves moderate, the ranks of self-described liberals have grown in recent years, according to Pew. For example, since 1995, Pew found at national outlets that the liberal segment has climbed from 22% to 34% while conservatives have only inched up from 5% to 7%.
The survey also revealed what some are sure to label a "values" gap. According to Pew, about 60% of the general public believes it is necessary to believe in God to be a truly moral person. The new survey finds that less than 15% of those who work at news outlets believe that. About half the general public believes homosexuality should be accepted by society -- but about 80% of journalists feel that way.
When the question of which news organizations actually tilted left or right, there was one clear candidate: Fox News. Fully 69% of national journalists, and 42% of those at the local level, called Fox News "especially conservative." Next up was The New York Times, which about one in five labeled "especially liberal."
Not surprisingly, views of how the press has treated President Bush break down along partisan lines. More than two out of three liberals feel the press has not been tough enough on Bush, while half the conservatives feel the media has been too tough.
Still, a little over half of national journalists (53%) give national media coverage of the administration an A or B rating.
While the sample of 547 interviewees is not large, Pew says that this selection represents "a cross-section of news organizations and of the people working at all levels of those organizations." Newspapers were identified and circulation ranked using the 2003 Editor & Publisher International Year Book.
In an essay accompanying the survey, the directors of the sponsoring groups -- Bill Kovach, Tom Rosenstiel and Amy Mitchell --declare that broad conclusions about the political findings should be tempered by analyzing some of the details in the findings. For example, they identify strong "libertarian" leanings among journalists, including doubts about the role of "big government." As to the typically Hermitian epithets and those of his Irvkenian minion, nothing need be said. They reveal their authors' character - or lack of same - so clearly that any explication by me would be redundant.
Of course such people will blame all the murdered in Iraq not upon their murderer Saddam, but upon the US, the UN, Bush, anyone but the actual Pol-Pot-ranked despot who perpetrated them, in keeping with their principle that if the US does something bad, it is actually much, much worse, while if someone else does something bad, it is actually the US that did it, the same biased and hatred-based nonlogic that also occurs with tinfoil-hat moonbat conspiracy theories that the US perpetrated 9/11, ragardless of Bin Ladin's videotaped admission, and that the madly prancing, Allahu-Ackbar ululating band that haggled through Nick bergs necs were US black ops.
These people will also see the US as destroying the credibility of the UN, rather than the fact that this has been done by the narrowly self-interested and oil-contract-bought votes of France and Germany, and the Oil-for-Food kickback bribery of high UN officials. In fact, by enforcing the UN resolutions in Iraq, the US has maintained that organization's global credibility in spite of itself.
As to the Palestinians, Arafat is the person whom eveb Clinton blamed for the collapse of talks, when he was offered practically everything he asked for, and still refused. It is interesting to note that, when Jordan held the West Bank and Egypt held the gaza strip, this fact did not prevent genocidal war from being waged against Israel, nor were the palestinians asking for their own country then. Since the surrounding Muslim countries could not defeat Israeli soldiers from the outside in a military conquest, they have opted for an internal insurgency, cynically using the Palestinians as brainwashed suicide-bombing pawns to attack Israeli civilians from the inside, in a guerilla jihad insurgency. However, the splodeydope attacks are diminishing as a result of the decapitation of the Palestinian terror networks and the quarantining of the memetically miasmic swamps from which such shaheeds issue.
I also note the convenient omission of the hermitic and metahuman/demon posts to which my replys posted were responses, but the infamous 'slimed screen' post is all too sadly typical of them, and of the total lack whatsoever of any standards or decorum in the part of their authors.
Re:virus: Joe's complaint
« Reply #20 on: 2004-05-31 21:25:37 »
> [Original Message] > From: Dr Sebby <drsebby@hotmail.com> > To: <virus@lucifer.com> > Date: 05/31/2004 2:58:53 PM > Subject: Re:virus: Joe's complaint > > ...Joe, dont get me wrong...i am NOT a partisan person or voter. if given > a free choice i would elect any of the following: Howard Dean(D), Mr. > Forbes(R), Wesley Clarke(R), maybe Bob Dole(R) and maybe John McCain(R). > >snip<
Just for the record, Wesley Clark is a Democrat. I also voted for him, donated money to his campaign, and went up to McAlester Oklahoma to work for his campaign in that primary (which he won). He's still a Democrat last time I checked.
love,
-Jake
--- Jake Sapiens --- every1hz@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
The Democrat for whom I would've liked to vote is Lieberman. He, alone among the Democrats, actually 'got ot' concerning the necessity to aggressively and proactively pursie a war on terrorists, and I far prefer his fiscal and domestic policies to Bush's, which, quite frankly, stink on dry ice. I will not vote for Bush unless there is a pre-election Al Qaeda terror attack on US soil; then I will swallow hard and vote for the man Al Qaeda does not want in office (Bush) over the man they DO want in office (Kerry). If they are willing to kill masses of Americans in order to coerce the cowards among us into cowering dhimmitude, well, I refuse to be one of those kowtowing cowards... I know that it doesn't matter to the Bush-haters out there; they would probably vote for Bin Ladin himself if that was their only choice, rather than the choice they WILL have, between the candidate Al Qaeda wants and the candidate Al Qaeda fears.
Re:virus: Joe's complaint
« Reply #22 on: 2004-05-31 21:40:08 »
Are all of us evil liberals who plan on voting for John Kerry really just a bunch of kowtowing cowards who are capitulating to the demands of the terrorists? Does anyone honestly believe that, when John Kerry is president, he’ll just bend over and drop his pants for the terrorists? As a human animal, Mr. Dees, you undoubtedly possess a prefrontal cortex—but if you only use it sporadically, it may very well atrophy.
If his antiwar base does not believe that he will, they are likely to vote for Nader. I can only judge Kerry by his actions and words, and they are not particularly auspicious for a vigorous pursuit of the War on Terrorists on the part of a hypothetical Kerry administration, if his "let the UN decide whether or not the US protects itself" stance is any indication...
Re:virus: Joe's complaint
« Reply #24 on: 2004-05-31 23:43:08 »
....i think the notion amongst bush-haters is that HE IS the reason terrorist attacks occur or are 'allowed' to occur and persist. what do the islamic nuts want? they want us out of their stupid 'holy' land, and a couple other things that are no interest to the common folk of this country. everyone knows that we could be a non-dependant if we wanted to (oil-wise)...and things would be fine. it's Bush that wants to be in there...and others pay the price for his little games with religious shitheads.
The Democrat for whom I would've liked to vote is Lieberman. He, alone among the Democrats, actually 'got ot' concerning the necessity to aggressively and proactively pursie a war on terrorists, and I far prefer his fiscal and domestic policies to Bush's, which, quite frankly, stink on dry ice. I will not vote for Bush unless there is a pre-election Al Qaeda terror attack on US soil; then I will swallow hard and vote for the man Al Qaeda does not want in office (Bush) over the man they DO want in office (Kerry). If they are willing to kill masses of Americans in order to coerce the cowards among us into cowering dhimmitude, well, I refuse to be one of those kowtowing cowards... I know that it doesn't matter to the Bush-haters out there; they would probably vote for Bin Ladin himself if that was their only choice, rather than the choice they WILL have, between the candidate Al Qaeda wants and the candidate Al Qaeda fears.
Sebby's view. of course, ignores history; the history of attacks perpetrated against US interests before Bush even assumed office (Beirut Marine barracks and US embassy, US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, 1993 attack on the world trade center, attack on the USS Cole, etc., the thwarted Millenium attack on LAX, the failed Ramzi Yousef attempt to simultaneously down 12 airliners in the far east, etc.), and also, that the 9/11 terror flyers were trained, funded and in place in the US before Bush assumed office. All this was able to happen because the terrorists, when the faced Reagan, Bush I and Clinton (enough neglect to go around to both political parties here) were free to strike, since they did not have to concern themselves with any attacks against them in Afghanistan, except for a few sound-bite photo-op missiles Clinton threw... In fact, because Reagan withdrew from Beirut following the truckbombings there, and because Clinton withdrew from Somalia after the Blackhawk Down incident, in which we lost 17 servicepeople while killing around a thousand of Aidid's Al Qaeda trained militia, Bin Ladin assumed, and recruited on the basis of, the idea that the US was a wimpy, wussy 'paper tiger' that turned tail and ran every time its nose was bloodied, because it was self-indulgent and weak, and, unlike the strong, committed and brave jihadis, could not stomach taking casualties.
Re:virus: Joe's complaint
« Reply #26 on: 2004-06-01 02:34:45 »
I know this probably goes without saying, but most of us liberals aren’t against all war. I for one was wholeheartedly in favor of the war in Afghanistan—but vehemently opposed to the Bush administration’s rationalizing of the war in Iraq as part of the “War on Terror.” I am, however, a firm believer in the efficacy of violence. After all, the only reason Ghandi’s satyagraha, or passive resistance, worked with Great Britain is that the British view themselves as a civilized people—and they want the rest of the world to share that view. On the other hand, the Islamic fundamentalists whom we’re currently at war with—like all fundamentalists—really don’t give a damn how the rest of the world views them, as long as they think they’re doing their god’s work. And, regarding the sissification of America, it’s not just the bin Ladens of the world who view Americans as a bunch of weaklings—a lot of the world views us as weak . . . and it annoys the hell out of me that they can easily justify their view of Americans as a bit too squeamish, since, for example, millions of Americans don’t want to see—or even hear about—things that are as disturbing as the Nick Berg beheading, the uncensored photos of Iraqi prisoner abuse, and the like. But adults should be able to handle raw reality, without any kind of censorship or bastardization of the truth. And that includes the most appalling and disturbing things that are going on in Iraq and elsewhere. Who knows? Maybe if more people knew just how appalling and disturbing some of the things are that happen during wartime, they wouldn’t be so goddamn quick to bang on the war drums with their Cheerleader in Chief.
I have seen the pictures at Abu Ghraib, both the recent ones and the surpassingly more brutal pictures taken during Saddam's reign. I have also seen the Nick Berg beheading - as have many Americans who are computer connected. My resolve has been steeled, not weakened; for the sake of civilized society, we MUST NOT allow these kinds of people to perdure and to impose their wills upon what they aspire to; a global Caliphate Ummah. Remember that India and Southeast Asia were willing to leave them alone, but they immigrated, and conquered, and killed, converted or subjugated into Dhimmitude the natives of those lands, in waves of violence and fanaticism. This has been their history, and we cannot, for our own sakes, and for the sakes of those yet to come, allow the same pattern to continue. It was Hegel who observed, in the Master-Slave Dialectic in the Phenomenology of Mind, that the difference between the Master and the Slave was that the Master was willing to die in order to rule, and the Slave was willing to be enslaved in order to live. But we are something dofferent - Free People - who do not wish to enslave others, as long as they allow us our freedom, but who are likewise willing to kill and die in order to avoid being enslaved by others. These Wahhab/Qutb zealots believe in two worlds; the Dar-al-Islam (World of Islam), and the Dar-al Harb (World of War). We are presently showing them that, contrary to this belief, they cannot hope to launch attacks upon the rest of the world from their Middle Eastern base (Al Qaeda translates as The Base), while enjoying the peace of dictatorial domination at home. We must be the Strong Horse who is by necessity backed by those who wager their lives, families and futures in the region. Our position in Iraq is foursquare in the middle of the terrorist region, surrounded by Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia. If there is indeed a Grand Plan to rid the world of the rule of these despots, Syria (and Lebanon) will be next; then, using the Mediterranean ports which would be secured upon their fall, our then easily transported and resupplied troops would march east through Iran (with Afghanistan providing a backstop), and perhaps, if necessary, south through Saudi Arabia. Democratization would follow regime change, and, once Syria and Iran were out of the equation, there would be no further bordering nations from which significant numbers of Jihadis could flow. But make no mistake; this is a global struggle, against a global enemy that has chosen us as an enemy, and thus given us no choice but to succumb or respond. It will take many years for it to end. We cannot allow our will not to bow in obesiance to be sapped by time or difficulty, for this is the only disaster that could conceivably defeat us.
Re:virus: Joe's complaint
« Reply #28 on: 2004-06-01 06:43:08 »
...Joe, how can we fight an idea? with guns? the islamic crazies will not stop. our best bet was to slowly erode their nuttiness with the capitalist temptations and principles...though admittedly shallow, a far sight better than suicide and killing.
...can you name one force that has successfully suppressed terrorism/guerilla warfare?
I have seen the pictures at Abu Ghraib, both the recent ones and the surpassingly more brutal pictures taken during Saddam's reign. I have also seen the Nick Berg beheading - as have many Americans who are computer connected. My resolve has been steeled, not weakened; for the sake of civilized society, we MUST NOT allow these kinds of people to perdure and to impose their wills upon what they aspire to; a global Caliphate Ummah. Remember that India and Southeast Asia were willing to leave them alone, but they immigrated, and conquered, and subjugated, in waves of violence and fanaticism. This has been their history, and we cannot , for our own sakes, and for the sakes of those yet to come, allow the same pattern to continue. These Wahhab/Qutb zealots believe in two worlds; the Dar-al-Islam (World of Islam), and the Dar-al Harb (World of War). We are presently showing them that, contrary to this belief, they cannot hope to launch attacks upon the rest of the world ! from their Middle Eastern base (Al Qaeda translates as The Base), while enjoying the peace of dictatorial domination at home. We must be the Strong Horse who is by necessity backed by those who wager their lives, families and futures in the region. Our position in Iraq is foursquare in the middle of the terrorist region, surrounded by Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia. If there is indeed a Grand Plan to rid the world of the rule of these despots, Syria (and Lebanon) will be next; then, using the Mediterranean ports which would be secured upon their fall, our then easily transported and resupplied troops would march east through Iran (with Afghanistan providing a backstop), and perhaps, if necessary, south through Saudi Arabia. Democratization would follow regime change, and, once Syria and Iran were out of the equation, there would be no further bordering nations from which significant numbers of Jihadis could flow. But make no mistake; this is a global struggle, against a global enemy that has chosen us as an enemy, and thus given us no choice but to succumb or respond. It will take many years for it to end. We cannot allow our will to be sapped by time or difficulty, for this is the only disaster that could conceivably defeat us.
Terrorism is born of desperation, and usually for good reason; its adherents know that they are losing, and badly, and doomed to lose completely. You cannot name me one circumstance in which terrorism has succeeded. Do you hear of the Red Guards any more? The Red Brigades? The Baader-Meinhof Gang? Gone, all gone, with the fall of their inspiring idea, Communism. The same thing happened to Fascism, and it is destined to happen to Islamofascism, leaving nothing behind but a froth of fringe fanatics yearning for a cruel era and a savage order long gone by - but between now and then, there are lives and liberties to save and murderers to stop and despots to topple. The idea of live and let live, in peace, freedom, prosperity and personal choice, with guaranteed political participation, gender equality and basic human rights, is a powerful memetic attractant. It is winning the culture competition by leaps and bounds. It, quite simply, sells itself - and sold itself to the citizens of the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, guaranteeing their demise as Communist entities and their rebirth as constitutional democracies. But, in the meantime, it has to be shown that such societies can also guarantee the safety and security of their members from those who would still labor to destroy them. If terrorism was not an option, it would only be a matter of waiting the totalitarians out until cognitive selection took its inevitable toll. But since it is being employed as a last resort, its adherents must be defeated and, if necessary, destroyed. As far as the West is concerned, they can continue to live as they want to, as long as they do not attack those who do not freely embrace their choice, but they rightly fear that, as generations pass, no one would want to live their way any more, and thus they feel as though they must attack, as a matter of sociocultural survival - they must kill the painted women before she seduces future generations away. They employ violence and coercion because they have already lost the persuasion battle, and they know it. In an era of rapid anonymous global travel and ready access to the knowledge, materiel and technology needed to build WMD's, we cannot simply wait idly by and allow fanatics who are willing to die in order to kill those who refuse to accept their path to wreak their havoc on the world.