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Jukka E Isosaari
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Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #75 on: 2004-05-07 09:38:30 »
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RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #76 on: 2004-05-07 10:05:34 »
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"but I'm not a historian"

This is painfully obvious Jei :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Jei
Sent: 07 May 2004 14:31
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq

On Thu, 6 May 2004, Kalkor wrote:

> [Kalkor]
>
> I would also like anyone who feels they are able, to point out some
> war throughout history that meets these two qualifications:
>
> 1) People killed each other
> 2) No one was tortured, not even for information

Can't think of any, but I'm not a historian..



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RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #77 on: 2004-05-07 14:08:16 »
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Joe Dees
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Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #78 on: 2004-05-07 14:45:24 »
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DrSebby
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...Oh, you smell of lambs!
18680476 18680476    dr_sebby drsebby
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Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #79 on: 2004-05-07 15:48:24 »
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....your welcome.

....i will tell you about the 'trip' itself:  needle in my arm...nurse told
me to count....at about 4 i felt an odd "icy"feeling going up my arm...at
about 6 or 7 the world and everything in it, including myself name of
sebastian, ceased to be.  i was suddenly in an extremely bizarre dreamlike
state but essentially totally lucid...except for the fact that i had no
awareness of any earthly/physical existence.  i still felt like "me" and
that i had existed all along....but with no name or any other physical
attributes, including history, memory, etc.  instead i saw myself as a
little tiny 'spark' of electricity perhaps...or something like it, racing
around in some vast maze of 'circuitry' perhaps?  in retrospect it felt a
lot like "Tron" in some ways.  i was zipping around in this "system" of
which i knew absolutely nothing...total lack of familiarity with the system
i was in, the rules(if any), and what the hell i was supposed to do.  what
i DID 'know' was that someone was trying to snuff me out....not directly
though...it was more like i knew someone or something or some force was
trying to shut me down...likely by shutting down the 'system' that i was in.
  so i had the acute awareness that something must be done to save my ass
and prevent this from happening.  the only problem was that i had no
knowledge of how this was going to be done, since i had zero knowledge of
where the focal point of 'attack' was being executed....or how vast the
'system' was.  i just kept zipping around in mild panic and futility.  i
interpret this now as perhaps my body (the system) being "hurt" by the
doctor antagonizing my nerve endings whilst resetting my nose bones....and
me being remotely aware of this "damage" being done and yet having no
capacity to deal with it or prevent it.

...i understand that being knocked out is the exact same effect that truth
seroms create (just on the waking up part)...just that truth seroms dont
take you so 'far down' and near death as knockout state where an
aenathesiologist is at your side monitoring your second by second vital
status.  and apparently a sedative is usually administered prior, due to
psychological trauma or fear experienced during sedation.  i found it to be
nothing short of amazing to see how simplified my brain could become.  at
least that's how it seemed from my perspective.  who knows if my
interpretations are totally incorrect.



DrSebby.
"Courage...and shuffle the cards".





----Original Message Follows----
From: Jei <jei@cc.hut.fi>
Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 16:38:30 +0300 (EEST)

Heh, I imagine Saddam must be having a real *experience*
of it by now... ^____^

Thank you for sharing your experience with us Sebby.
I find these really very interesting...

On Fri, 7 May 2004, Dr Sebby wrote:

> ...no, it wasnt sodium pentathol or some-such thing.  it was effectively
the
> exact same thing though....more dangerous however and thus not used for
such
> purposes.  it was simply being knocked out for very minor surgery for a
> broken nose...naturally requiring an anathesiologist.  it was in Tokyo,
and
> unlike the standard practise of tranquilizing the patient first, they
just
> gave it to me straight off...it was one of the weirdest "trips" i couldve
> imagined.  i'll tell you about the actual experience later.  but for now
> i'll jump straight to the end...when i was coming out of it.  i was in a
> semi-concious state....babbling about anything and everything.  luckily
> they didnt speak much english, and i somehow got stuck on reciting
> poetry....but if my mind had wandered or been led to anything else...and
i
> mean ANYTHING, i wouldve had absolutely NO problem yapping about it in
the
> most painfully honest of terms.  i wouldve freely and openly discussed
any
> and all of my most personal insecurities, embarrassing deeds, deepest
> feelings etc....without the slightest touch of reservation.  i realized
this
> soon after emerging into full conciousness and self-control and quickly
> imagined what curious things doctors are often treated to in such
> circumstances.  the best way i can describe it is that i had absolutely
> ZERO awareness of the real world, my physical being, my involvement in
some
> sort of real world, or who the hell i was talking to or for.
>
> DrSebby.
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Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #80 on: 2004-05-07 19:14:27 »
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[Joe Dees]
Now to the Venezuela story:

The Recall That Matters
By Carroll Andrew Morse
http://www.techcentralstation.com/050704B.html

<snip>

What Hugo Chavez Means for Democracy Around the Globe
By Carroll Andrew Morse

Millions of Venezuelans have signed a petition demanding that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez stand in a recall election.
<snip>



[rhinoceros]
Let it not be said that Joe Dees failed to jump into the latest US do-good operation, one of those that make the unsuspected and amazed American citizen receive hatred rather than gratitude. I will just add some missing parts to the picture from a different partisan source.


http://www.venezuelafoia.info

About this site: VenezuelaFOIA.info is dedicated to investigating the depth and breadth of recent US meddling in Venezuela by examining information obtained through the US Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), news stories, and other material.

On April 11-12, 2002 there was a short-lived military coup against Hugo Cha'vez, the popularly-elected president of Venezuela. The Bush administration (which, unlike the Cha'vez government, was not popularly elected) openly supported the coup until it heard complaints from other elected presidents in the region - and when it became clear that the coup would not succeed.  It is still unclear exactly how much US government involvement there was in the coup or when US government support for it started, and from exactly which USG entities that this support came.  On this site we will examine the evidence, using similar historical events for comparison.

If we examine other US-sponsored coups in Latin America, such as that of Guatemala in 1954, and especially Chile before the fall of Allende, and US behavior during the Nicaraguan war of the 1980s, we invariably find a multi-tracked US policy combining donations of money to create and then support opposition groups, the upper classes and a pro-US press along with the military.  US economic support usually takes a variety of forms and often the larger funds of its covert support are hidden behind small amounts of token "open support".  Historically, the US has also sought to buy the support of key officers within the security and military forces.

We are analyzing this issue because US meddling in countries that do not threaten its real national security is not only extremely destructive to democratic concepts of self-determination in those countries affected, but also sullies the reputation of the US, and the concept of democracy on a global level.

===========================

CIPE QUARTERLY REPORT, April, May, June 2003
NED GRANT 2002-021

This list includes representatives from 16 organizations chosen to 'formulate a strategy for a national consensus' on an alternative agenda to the present Venezuelan government. NED funded approximately $300,000 for the project. Note that many of those individuals and groups represented are notorious coup participants.

============================

National Endowment for Democracy (NED)
A Brief description of NED
http://www.venezuelafoia.info./NED/NED-index.htm

NED according to NED
http://www.venezuelafoia.info./NED/ned_according_to_ned.htm

NED: Articles & Chapters
http://www.venezuelafoia.info./ARTICLES-ARTICULOS.htm

Books about NED
http://www.venezuelafoia.info./NED/NED%20books.htm

<snip>

The National Endowment for Democracy (NED) receives funding from both the US Congress and the State Department.  Its role appears to be to provide funding for foreign entities which act in US interests, under the guise of expanding "democracy".  As such, it has legitimized part of the role that the CIA used to play.

At present, the NED offering small grants to a myriad of Venezuelan organizations.  One only needs to read a few of them in order to see that the real aim is to remove Venezuela's democratically-elected government.

From 2002 to the present, NED has either funded or is funding the following entities working in Venezuela:


[rhinoceros - interjection]
In case you have the time to gloss over the following list, it will be more amusing if you imagine that it happened to similar organization in the USA, which someone from another country funded "for a good cause".


NED GRANTEES IN VENEZUELA

AGRICULTURAL SECTOR:
Asociacio'n Civil Accio'n Campesina (“ACAC” Civil Association of Farmers’ Action): [...] since 2001, ACAC has been devoted exclusively to opposing the Land Reform Law, a law proposed by the Cha'vez administration that was successfully passed in late 2001. ACAC received a grant of $35,000 from the NED in 2002-2003, much of which was used to sabotage efforts to implement the Land Reform law in ten different states in Venezuela. Despite the clear passage of the law, ACAC received an additional $58,000 grant from the NED in 2003 to continue efforts to sabotage the success of the Land Reform legislation and to promote a revised law that would oppose Cha'vez administration policies and goals in the area of agrarian development.  A clear case of US meddling by funding a group working to hinder the success of Venezuela’s current government’s policies.

EDUCATION SECTOR:
Asociacio'n Civil Asamblea de Educacio'n (“ACAdE” Civil Association of the Education Assembly): With the pretext of “Strengthening Civil Society to Promote Democratic Education”, the ACAdE received $55,000 from the NED in September 2001, much of which was used to fund their anti-Cha'vez marches, propaganda campaigns and education sector strikes. Despite their known participation in the coup d’etat in April 2002 against President Cha'vez – their President, Leonardo Carvajal was named Minister of Education under the brief dictatorship of Pedro Carmona during Cha'vez’s forced ouster – the NED gave them a whopping $57,000 more in October 2002, which they then used to fund efforts to promote a national strike with the goal of forcing Cha'vez again from office. No known educational achievement has been accomplished by the ACAdE, yet they continue to be a major recipient of NED funds.

MILITARY
Asociacio'n Civil Comprensio'n de Venezuela (“ACCV” Civil Association for Understanding Venezuela): Despite its misleading name, ACCV is dedicated to influencing loyal military forces to the Cha'vez government with the hopes of instigating a military rebellion. Under the pretext of “foster an understanding of the defense of citizen liberties and civil-military relations”, ACCV received $57,820 from the NED during 2001-2002 (right before the April 2002), to work against the Cha'vez administration trend to incorporate military officers in key government positions.

LEGAL & JUSTICE SYSTEM
Asociacio'n Civil Consorcio Justicia (“ACCJ” Civil Association of the Justice Consortium): Based on the premise of struggling against ‘authoritarianism’ in Venezuela, Consorcio Justicia was awarded $19,740 in 2001-2002 by the NED which jumped to $84,000 in January 2002 – a few months before the April 2002 coup against President Cha'vez. Consorcio Justicia received an additional $54,000 in April 2003 and $14,412 in October 2003, coming to a grand total of $172,152 in NED funding during the 2001-2003 period, and this in a nation with a $75/month minimum wage. This massive funding has gone directly to Consorcio Justicia’s efforts to “build up the capacity of civil society organizations in Venezuela to become active partners” in the struggle against Cha'vez. Consorcio Justicia is known in Venezuela to have participated in and supported the April 2002 coup and the oil industry sabotage and lockout during Winter 2003.

Asociacio'n Civil Justicia Alternativa (“ACJA” Civil Association of Alternative Justice): Receiving $10,000 from the NED in 2002 and $14,107 in 2003, the ACJA works to foster police-community relations and to train Justices of the Peace outside the big cities. Although sounding relatively neutral in its objectives, the ACJA also premises its actions on President Cha'vez’s “revolutionary rhetoric, public disregard for democratic processes and institutions and vitriolic attacks on his opponents,” failing to mention the April 2002 coup and the oil industry sabotage in winter 2003 led by these ‘opponents.’ Furthermore, ACJA labels the grassroots community organizations, the Bolivarian Circles, as “paramilitary groups,” just because they support Cha'vez’s government.

CIVIL SOCIETY
Asociacio'n Civil Accio'n para el Desarollo (“ACCEDES” Civil Association of Democratic Action): ACCEDES received a $10,000 grant in April 2003 from the NED for “Local Civil Education”, which translates into working to develop neighborhood associations primarily to combat the Bolivarian Circles, which ACCEDES refers to as the government’s “armed private militia groups.” ACCEDES also premises the need for its work on President Cha'vez’s “public disregard for democratic processes and institutions,” and the demand for middle class neighborhoods to “defend themselves.”

LABOR
American Center for International Labor Solidarity (“ACILS”) and the Confederacio'n de Trabajadores Venezolanos (“CTV” Venezuela Workers Confederation): During the 6-month period of September 2002 through March 2003, ACILS received $116,001 from the NED to support their labor efforts in Venezuela. The sole beneficiary of ACILS’ work in Venezuela is the CTV, the corrupt union notoriously known for its participation in the April 2002 coup d’etat against President Cha'vez and its spearheading of the subsequent oil industry sabotage and business lockout that resulted in more than $10 million in damages to the Venezuelan economy. This $116,001 grant came just 3 months before the CTV launched the lockout in December 2003, while calling for a nationwide strike to force President Cha'vez from office. The substantial funding most likely went to the extensive propaganda campaign co-led by the CTV that consumed the major media airways for 64 days in a row. The CTV’s then-president, Carlos Ortega, later called for the death of President Cha'vez during a protest in Miami. The sinister Ortega fled from justice in Venezuela after a warrant was issued for his arrest for his involvement in the coup and the lockout. He is now self-exiled in Costa Rica, where he teeters on thin water with the Costa Rican government, which has already warned him about his continued calls for Cha'vez’s ouster ‘by any means’ from their territory.  The CTV continues to be one of the main participants in the opposition movement.

POLICE
Asociacio'n Civil Liderazgo y Visio'n (“ACLV” Civil Association for Leadership and Vision): The ACLV received $42,207 in September 2003 for “Civil Education for Police” in Caracas. The metropolitan police in Caracas, ruled by the anti-Cha'vez mayor of metropolitan Caracas, Alfredo Pen~a, are known to be aligned with the opposition. Numerous metropolitan police forces have been implicated in the April 2002 coup against President Cha'vez, and their repressive tactics have continued to be exclusively enforced against pro-Cha'vez supporters. Despite its alleged objective of training the Caracas police force in democratic rights and responsibilities and the peaceful resolution of conflict, the results of the $42,207 grant from the NED are nil. In fact, the Caracas police have become even more repressive during the past year, particularly during pro-Cha'vez marches or events.

COMMUNITY ACTION
Accio'n para el Desarrollo (“ApD” Action for Development): A recipient of the special Venezuela funds given to the NED by the State Department to dispense on Venezuela-related projects right after the April 2002 coup, ApD works to conduct “informal civil education workshops” for neighborhood associations in poor neighborhoods around Caracas. Despite its supposed pretense of “promoting development and democratic dialogue” within communities, ApD works to undermine the Cha'vez administration by attempting to indoctrinate community leaders against the Cha'vez government and promotes the fabricated claim of “political and human rights violations” occurring at the hand of Cha'vez.  ApD was given $10,000 in April 2003 to this end.

ECONOMIC/BUSINESS SECTOR
Centro de Divulgacio'n del Conocimiento Econo'mico (“CEDICE” Center for the Dissemination of Economic Information) and Centro Internacional para la Empresa Privada (“CIPE” International Center for Private Businesses): Both CEDICE and CIPE are engaging in business-oriented efforts in Venezuela, working directly with FEDECAMARAS, the anti-Cha'vez business association that co-led the April 2002 coup and the Winter 2003 lockout (Fedeca'maras President Pedro Carmona took over the presidency during the April 2002 coup and proceeded to dissolve all of Venezuela’s democratic institutions before being forced from his self-imposed government). CEDICE and CIPE also collaborate extensively with the Democratic Coordinator, the opposition umbrella group that exclusively works on efforts to remove President Cha'vez before his democratic term is complete. CIPE also works with the Venezuelan media, also notoriously known as a key opposition outlet. More than $80,000 was allocated to CEDICE-CIPE’s combined efforts by the NED right before the 2002 coup.

HUMAN RIGHTS
Center for Justice and International Law (“CEJIL”):  The U.S. based CEJIL was given a $83,000 grant from the NED in September 2003 for “Human Rights Defense” in Venezuela. Premised on an alleged “deterioration of government and rule of law” under President Cha'vez’s administration, CEJIL purports to train citizens and organizations to defend human rights in the Inter-American court system.  The USG's $83,000 is being used to bring legal claims against the Cha'vez government in the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights of the Organization of American States, which represents a conflict of interest.

SOCIAL PROGRAMS
Centro al Servicio de la Accio'n Popular (“CESAP” Center at the Service of Popular Action): In July 2002, CESAP received $63,000 for its “Monitoring Social Programs” project based on creating more legitimacy for the diverse groups opposing the “anti-democratic” government of President Cha'vez. CESAP received an additional $65,000 in August 2003 for the same purpose, as well as for pressuring political actors to operate in favor of opposition demands. CESAP also works to gather information on federal and state social programs for reporting and study purposes, yet based on the group’s determination of the Cha'vez government as “undemocratic” it seems unlikely that it’s reports will be objective or useful.

CONFLICT RESOLUTION/COMMUNITY ORGANIZING
Fundacio'n Justicia de Paz Monegas (“FJP” Justice and Peace Foundation): A member of the Consorcio Justicia, another NED beneficiary in Venezuela, the FJP is dedicated to “Conflict Resolution at the Local Level.” In October 2002, FJP was allocated $11,000 by the NED to supposedly increase dialogue among different political parties at the local level and encourage peaceful resolution of conflicts, yet their work is premised on blaming Cha'vez’s return to power after the April 2002 coup d’etat for the polarization in Venezuela. Furthermore, FJP falsely labels the Bolivarian Circles as “armed private militia groups,” and “paramilitary groups ready to defend the government” utilizing that fabrication as a pretext to further their claims that the Cha'vez government disregards “democratic processes and institutions.” In 2003, FJP was given an additional $11,698 to promote efforts for the recall referendum against President Cha'vez.

LEGISLATION
Fundacio'n Momento de la Gente (“FMG” The People’s Moment Foundation): Beginning in February 2001, FMG received $40,000 from the NED for the project, “Legislative Monitoring for Protection of Political Rights”, an ambiguous purpose for a non-governmental organization. FMG, known in Venezuela as a group ardently opposed to President Cha'vez, received an additional $64,000 in February 2002, right before the April 2002 coup d’etat and $64,000 in April 2003, to work closely with opposition-side National Assembly members with the goal of passing new legislation in the areas of municipal government, electoral procedures and political participation. This is a substantial amount of financing for efforts to influence Venezuelan legislation and to oppose President Cha'vez’s policies.

Programa para el Desarollo Legislativo (“PRODEL” Program for Legislative Development): PRODEL-Venezuela was awarded a $50,000 grant in 2000 by the NED to work with Venezuelan national, state and local legislators to promote decentralization, despite the Cha'vez administration’s move towards a more centralized government as a result of prior government’s failures to provide for the social welfare of the Venezuelan people. PRODEL’s specific efforts were targeted at legislation proposed by the Cha'vez government, which PRODEL opposed as contrary to a decentralized outlook. As such, PRODEL’s actions were pointed at supporting efforts to oppose Cha'vez’s legislative initiatives and to support opposition to the policies of the recently democratically elected President of Venezuela.

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Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #81 on: 2004-05-07 20:17:38 »
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[Jei]
And so? What about it? I don't fancy doing lots of work
on history research for the sake of you people on this
list.  "Prove me this, prove me that, now tell me how
great a country we are, and what all good things we have
done, and oh by the way, you're an anti-semite for being
critical, and you must hate america too! You boo boo!"


[rhinoceros]
Well, but if you want to make an argument... you shouldn't expect that someone who does not agree will find the evidence for your own argument.

As for the rest, if you visit the web site of this mailing list (http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61) you will see some small descriptions and numbers at the left of each post labeled "reputation", "karma", etc, which are based on how the visitors rate the posts and the people. Of course these things do not decide who or what is right or wrong, but they do show how one's arguments or attitudes are perceived by others. You will find that some of the things for which you complained as well as other things are reflected there.

Take a look and you will realize that the picture you have from the number, size, or attitude of the email messages is very misleading.



[Jei]
- At best, I rate this list is as an amusement. Sometimes
there's also some good links, but nowadays, it isn't even
remotely constructive. Whatever I bother to post, I do either for fun, or the fact that I want to break some ballooning american ego-bubbles, knowing they will bark back as much as they can.


[rhinoceros]
Entertainment value is always appreciated around here.



[Jei]
- This list was good before the "religion/church"  was started. After that, duh. - Some kind of american thing, these new age "religions"? How about a normal registered club instead?


[rhinoceros]
This has always been a church and an attempt at a memeticaly engineered religion. I wouldn't call it new agey though. Any hint of mysticism is dissected and its internals examined. Take a look at the home page:

http://virus.lucifer.com

It is also a "normal registerd club" in the sense that you can skip mass any time you want, or you can bring in your own preaching and put it on the table, or you can just make some noise.

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Re: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #82 on: 2004-05-07 21:08:05 »
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We can't leave Iraq, we can't stay in Iraq, AND, to top it all off, the
whole fucking Arab world sees us as imperialists satan-worshippers.
Jesus christ on a popsickle stick!!!

And there are SO many other good reasons to dump Bush without Iraq, like
the one below:
---------------------------------------
SA Perspectives
May 2004 Scientific American

Bush-League Lysenkoism

Starting in the 1930s, the Soviets spurned genetics in favor of
Lysenkoism, a fraudulent theory of heredity inspired by Communist
ideology. Doing so crippled agriculture in the U.S.S.R. for decades. You
would think that bad precedent would have taught President George W.
Bush something. But perhaps he is no better at history than at science.
In February his White House received failing marks in a statement signed
by 62 leading scientists, including 20 Nobel laureates, 19 recipients of
the National Medal of Science, and advisers to the Eisenhower and Nixon
administrations. It begins, “Successful application of science has
played a large part in the policies that have made the United States of
America the world’s most powerful nation and its citizens increasingly
prosperous and healthy. Although scientific input to the government is
rarely the only factor in public policy decisions, this input should
always be weighed from an objective and impartial perspective to avoid
perilous consequences. . . . The administration of George W. Bush has,
however, disregarded this principle.” Doubters of that judgment should
read the report from the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) that
accompanies the statement, “Restoring Scientific Integrity in Policy
Making” (available at www.ucsusa. org). Among the affronts that it
details: The administration misrepresented the findings of the National
Academy of Sciences and other experts on climate change. It meddled with
the discussion of climate change in an Environmental Protection Agency
report until the EPA eliminated that section.

It suppressed another EPA study that showed that the administration’s
proposed Clear Skies Act would do less than current law to reduce air
pollution and mercury contamination of fish. It even dropped independent
scientists from advisory committees on lead poisoning and drug abuse in
favor of ones with ties to industry. Let us offer more examples of our
own. The Department of Health and Human Services deleted information
from its Web sites that runs contrary to the president’s preference for
“abstinence only” sex education programs. The Office of Foreign Assets
Control made it much more difficult for anyone from “hostile nations” to
be published in the U.S., so some scientific journals will no longer
consider submissions from them. The Office of Management and Budget has
proposed overhauling peer review for funding of science that bears on
environmental and health regulations —in effect, industry scientists
would get to approve what research is conducted by the EPA. None of
those criticisms fazes the president, though. Less than two weeks after
the UCS statement was released, Bush unceremoniously replaced two
advocates of human embryonic stem cell research on his advisory Council
on Bioethics with individuals more likely to give him a hallelujah
chorus of opposition to it. Blind loyalists to the president will
dismiss the UCS report because that organization often tilts left—never
mind that some of those signatories are conservatives. They may brush
off this magazine’s reproofs the same way, as well as the regular salvos
launched by California Representative Henry A. Waxman of the House
Government Reform Committee [see Insights, on page
52] and maybe even Arizona Senator John McCain’s scrutiny for the
Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation. But it is
increasingly impossible to ignore that this White House disdains
research that inconveniences it.

--

Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.

"Pursue the small utopias... nature, music, friendship, love"
--Kupferberg--


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Re: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #83 on: 2004-05-07 21:47:51 »
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That statement signed by all those scientists really is the best reason to dump him, transhumanistically speaking.

(I just wanted to use the word transhumanistically in a sentence)
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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Re: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #84 on: 2004-05-07 22:02:13 »
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I agree, there are no rules in love and war.

With either one, if you play by the rules, you lose.

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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
simul
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I am a lama.
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Re: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #85 on: 2004-05-07 22:10:17 »
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Rule #1 in the torture game is that you always kill the person you tortured after you got the info.  The last thing you need are dangerous leftover liabilities.

The real torture probably went undocumented, but we do know that hundreds of iraqis died in American prisons.  Good chance that some died after being tortured.

This “frat-boy hazing cum abuse” looks suspiciously like smoke.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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