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rhinoceros
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Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #15 on: 2004-05-06 11:44:22 »
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For all you old pervs out there, I've posted pr0n.

http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=60;action=display;threadid=30256

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Joe Dees
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Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #16 on: 2004-05-06 12:11:46 »
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RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #17 on: 2004-05-06 12:18:36 »
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[Jonathan Davis]
<snip>
I this forum, politically, we get a self-reinforcing cycle of anti-Bush and
anti-War opining that whilst emboldening rabid anti-Semites bigots like Jei
and spurring my esteemed fellows Jake and Kalkor to harsh claims, is mostly
unbalanced and based on bunk.

[Kalkor]
Don't drag me into your war/antiwar argument please. You'll note that my
post had nothing to do with this subject and everything to do with
valid/invalid argument practices. In case you forgot, lemme quote myself
again:

[Previous quote]
A personal attack on the author and subtle (haha) disdain for the poster.
Oh, and a sarcastic jab implying the source wasn't popular enough. Yet
nothing about the content? Hmmmmmm

Kalkor

[Which was in response to Joe Dees]
Oh, great!  Diplomatic, military and foreign policy wisdom from the
touchy-feely Calafornia guru-ess - to - the - stars.  And posted by Common
Dreams, yet!  I wonder how Znet and the Yellow News got scooped.

[Kalkor]
So what about my claim is harsh, exactly?

You may also note that his next response, while he's off to a good start
with the claim of insubstantiality, seems to be spearheaded by yet another
attack on the author's style, person, and/or qualifications. In case you
missed THAT too, here it is:

[Joe Dees]
I pooh-pooh'ed Ms. Williamson's Kum-Bay-Yah'ish plea because she has no
qualifications beyond being an author of vaguely mystical self-affirmation
books, and presents nothing more substantial than an anecdote as evidence.

[Kalkor]
I maintain that these are all still unsupported and invalid agruments in the
context. Prove me wrong? Then you can use them in your arguments and be
taken seriously. Continue to personally attack an author rather than
rationally attack that which is written? In that case, we'll continue to
think you're a kook. Or a raving lunatic. Just like you think she's a
"touchy-feely Calafornia guru-ess - to - the - stars." and "Kum-Bay-Yah'ish"
"author of vaguely mystical self-affirmation books".

I haven't even bothered to read any of it, of course. I'm too busy being
touch-feely in my real life and new agey guru-ish myself. Which of course is
irrelevant to the argument I bring to this table, namely that it's ludicrous
for you to expect us to take "your word" that an author is unqualified
simply because you are able to call her names. (no one has provided
compelling reasons for me to read it anyhow ;-})

Kalkor

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Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #18 on: 2004-05-06 13:31:44 »
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JD
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RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #19 on: 2004-05-06 13:35:18 »
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Sorry Kalkor,

I was not having a go at you at all. I  ought not to have put down any names
and did so to distinguish my esteemed fellows from my less esteemed fellows.


Kind regards

JD

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Subject: RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq


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Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #20 on: 2004-05-06 13:42:54 »
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RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #21 on: 2004-05-06 13:53:26 »
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Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #22 on: 2004-05-06 14:02:45 »
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RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #23 on: 2004-05-06 14:07:25 »
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Hi Rhino,

I am always attending, there, at the back of the congregation. It is only on
occasion that I row with the CoV imams - and it is mostly for sport. 

If you understood me correctly you would now have been presented with a view
that

Saddam had and used WMD (this is an historical fact).

Evidence of the existence of those WMD and their development has been found
since the war and indeed weapons were left behind in 1998 and never
accounted for. They remain unaccounted for. 

The Bush Administration said they believed the Intelligence community that
Saddam had WMD. I believe they believed those assessments as I did too.

It is believed that some of Saddam's WMD may have been smuggled into Syria
and possibly Jordan.

Saddam Hussein was a mass murderer and regional menace who used said weapons
of mass destruction on soldiers and civilians. The threat that he would do
so again was very real. It was against that threat that we acted (amongst
other sound reasons).

If Syria harbours terrorists, continues to fuel insurrection in Iraq and
otherwise wages war against the US and Coalition, then I would love to see
it invaded and the Jihadi terrorists massacred. Unfortunately the public has
no stomach for war (for now) and it is an impractical solution. I think
Syria, like the rest of these tin pot hellholes in the Middle East will
eventually collapse and have to be rescued by UN food aid.

As for democracy, we it cannot be forced on people, but they can be offered
it and tend to want it eventually anyway. People deserve their governments
after all and maybe the Iraqis - if they blow their chance at setting up a
democracy now - will become another Iran or Syria. If so, I expect they will
find in 2025 or so that they will be in the same position as contemporary
Iran: Students and dissidents being attacked and oppressed because they are
trying to argue for ....you guessed it....DEMOCRACY!

It would be good if Iraq can become a stable democracy. If it does not, so
be it. The whole region has been put on notice. Develop WMD and/or support
terror then you will be destroyed.

Libya and Jordan and several other have got the message. Maybe Iran and
Syria will have to be coaxed a bit, that is unless their home-grown
democracy movements don't depose their despotic governments first.

Regards

Jonathan



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
rhinoceros
Sent: 06 May 2004 15:18
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq


Oh frabjous day! Welcome back Jonathan. I see that we managed to get your
attention to the matters of the church after all. If I understand your
sources correctly, Saddam's weapons of mass destruction have already been
found but there is a conspiracy of the mass media to keep it a secret,
right? So it is not correct that Saddam was telling the truth and that Bush
administration was lying, right? And they have been keeping it a secret from
Bush himself too, right? Everything seems possible at the point we have
reached, doesn't it?

What about Syria? Should they be invaded and searched and taught some
Democracy in the process?


Now, where was that torch?
Here is my Quiz of the Day. Who said this last Tuesday?

<begin quote>
"My impression is that what has been charged thus far is abuse, which I
believe technically is different from torture ... I don't know if it is
correct to say what you just said, that torture has taken place, or that
there's been a conviction for torture. And therefore I'm not going to
address the torture word."
<end quote>

Spoiler here. Don't look.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2004/05/06/torture/index_np.html



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Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #24 on: 2004-05-06 14:08:13 »
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Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #25 on: 2004-05-06 14:29:33 »
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Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #26 on: 2004-05-06 14:29:20 »
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Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #27 on: 2004-05-06 14:34:26 »
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Re: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #28 on: 2004-05-06 14:29:54 »
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Chemical weapons have a “shelf-life” of about 10-15 years.

So, even though we facilitated the sale of chemical weapons to Saddam in the 80's, they'd be largely neutralized and ineffective by now.

Iraq did not have the facilities to produce chemical weapons, since  U.N. inspections started.

My guess is that the most likely producers of the weapons seized are probably the U.S. and Russia.  Possilby Israel.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Joe Dees" <hidden@lucifer.com>
Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:11:46
To:virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq


The curious lack of curiosity about WMD
Larry Elder

May 6, 2004

"Week after week after week after week," said Sen. Ted Kennedy, D-Mass., about President Bush's rationale for going to war with Iraq, "we were told lie after lie after lie after lie." Were we?

Jordan recently seized 20 tons of chemicals trucked in by confessed al Qaeda members who brought the stuff in from Syria. The chemicals included VX, Sarin and 70 others. But the media seems curiously incurious about whether one could reasonably trace this stuff back to Iraq. Had the terrorists released a "toxic cloud," Jordanian officials say 80,000 would have died!

So, I interviewed terrorism expert John Loftus, who once held some of the highest security clearances in the world. Loftus, a former Army officer, served as a Justice Department prosecutor. He investigated CIA cases of Nazi war criminals for the U.S. attorney general. Author of several books, Loftus once received a Pulitzer Prize nomination.

John Loftus: There's a lot of reason to think (the source of the chemicals) might be Iraq. We captured Iraqi members of al Qaeda, who've been trained in Iraq, planned for the mission in Iraq, and now they're in Jordan with nerve gas. That's not the kind of thing you buy in a grocery store. You have to have obtained it from someplace.

Larry Elder: They couldn't have obtained it from Syria?

Loftus: Syria does have the ability to produce certain kinds of nerve gasses, but in small quantities. The large stockpiles were known to be in Iraq. The best U.S. and allied intelligence say that in the 10 weeks before the Iraq war, Saddam's Russian adviser told him to get rid of all the nerve gas. It would be useless against U.S. troops; the rubber suits were immune to it. So they shipped it across the border to Syria and Lebanon and buried it. Now, in the last few weeks, there's a controversy that Syria has been trying to get rid of this stuff.

They're selling it to al Qaeda is one supposition. We know the Sudanese government demanded that the Syrian government empty its warehouse in Khartoum where they've been hiding illegal missiles along with components of weapons of mass destruction. But there's no doubt these guys confessed on Jordanian television that they received the training for this mission in Iraq. . . . And from the description it appears this is the form of nerve gas known as VX. It's very rare, and very tough to manufacture . . . one of the most destructive chemical mass-production weapons that you can use. . . . They wanted to build three clouds, a mile across, of toxic gas. A whole witch's brew of nasty chemicals that were going to go into this poison cloud, and this would have gone over shopping malls, hospitals . . .

Elder: You said that the Russians told Saddam, "There is going to be an invasion. Get rid of your chemical and biological weapons."

Loftus: Sure. It would only bring the United Nations down on their heads if they were shown to really have weapons of mass destruction. It's not generally known, but the CIA has found 41 different material breaches where Saddam did have a weapons of mass destruction program of various types. It was completely illegal. But no one could find the stockpiles. And the liberal press seems to be focusing on that.

Elder: It seems to me that this is a huge, huge story.

Loftus: It's embarrassing to the (press). They've staked their reputations that this stuff wasn't there. And now all of a sudden we have al Qaeda agents from Iraq showing up with weapons of mass destruction.

Elder: David Kay said, in an interim report, that there was a possibility that WMD components were shipped to Syria.

Loftus: A possibility? We had a Syrian journalist who defected to Paris in January. The guy is dying of cancer, and he said, "Look, my friends in Syrian intelligence told me exactly where the stuff is buried." He named three sites in Syria, and the Israelis have confirmed the three sites. They know where the stuff is, but the problem is that the United States can't just go around invading Arab countries. . . . We know from Israeli and defectors' intelligence that the son of the Syrian defense minister was paid 50 million bucks to bring the stuff across the border and bury it.

Elder: Why would al Qaeda attack Jordan?

Loftus: Jordan is an ally of the United States. It's at peace with Israel. And Jordan has a long history of trying to prosecute terrorists. . . . There are a lot of reasons. . . . They want to make an example of them. They want to terrorize as many of the Arab states as possible. This is sort of a political dream for the president. The worst nightmare is al Qaeda gets weapons of mass destruction from Iraq. And it looks like it's coming true.



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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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Re: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #29 on: 2004-05-06 14:29:32 »
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Chemical weapons have a “shelf-life” of about 10-15 years.

So, even though we facilitated the sale of chemical weapons to Saddam in the 80's, they'd be largely neutralized and ineffective by now.

Iraq did not have the facilities to produce chemical weapons, since  U.N. inspections started.

The most likely producers of the weapons seized are probably the U.S. and Russia.  Possilby Israel.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Joe Dees" <hidden@lucifer.com>
Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:11:46
To:virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq


The curious lack of curiosity about WMD
Larry Elder

May 6, 2004

"Week after week after week after week," said Sen. Ted Kennedy, D-Mass., about President Bush's rationale for going to war with Iraq, "we were told lie after lie after lie after lie." Were we?

Jordan recently seized 20 tons of chemicals trucked in by confessed al Qaeda members who brought the stuff in from Syria. The chemicals included VX, Sarin and 70 others. But the media seems curiously incurious about whether one could reasonably trace this stuff back to Iraq. Had the terrorists released a "toxic cloud," Jordanian officials say 80,000 would have died!

So, I interviewed terrorism expert John Loftus, who once held some of the highest security clearances in the world. Loftus, a former Army officer, served as a Justice Department prosecutor. He investigated CIA cases of Nazi war criminals for the U.S. attorney general. Author of several books, Loftus once received a Pulitzer Prize nomination.

John Loftus: There's a lot of reason to think (the source of the chemicals) might be Iraq. We captured Iraqi members of al Qaeda, who've been trained in Iraq, planned for the mission in Iraq, and now they're in Jordan with nerve gas. That's not the kind of thing you buy in a grocery store. You have to have obtained it from someplace.

Larry Elder: They couldn't have obtained it from Syria?

Loftus: Syria does have the ability to produce certain kinds of nerve gasses, but in small quantities. The large stockpiles were known to be in Iraq. The best U.S. and allied intelligence say that in the 10 weeks before the Iraq war, Saddam's Russian adviser told him to get rid of all the nerve gas. It would be useless against U.S. troops; the rubber suits were immune to it. So they shipped it across the border to Syria and Lebanon and buried it. Now, in the last few weeks, there's a controversy that Syria has been trying to get rid of this stuff.

They're selling it to al Qaeda is one supposition. We know the Sudanese government demanded that the Syrian government empty its warehouse in Khartoum where they've been hiding illegal missiles along with components of weapons of mass destruction. But there's no doubt these guys confessed on Jordanian television that they received the training for this mission in Iraq. . . . And from the description it appears this is the form of nerve gas known as VX. It's very rare, and very tough to manufacture . . . one of the most destructive chemical mass-production weapons that you can use. . . . They wanted to build three clouds, a mile across, of toxic gas. A whole witch's brew of nasty chemicals that were going to go into this poison cloud, and this would have gone over shopping malls, hospitals . . .

Elder: You said that the Russians told Saddam, "There is going to be an invasion. Get rid of your chemical and biological weapons."

Loftus: Sure. It would only bring the United Nations down on their heads if they were shown to really have weapons of mass destruction. It's not generally known, but the CIA has found 41 different material breaches where Saddam did have a weapons of mass destruction program of various types. It was completely illegal. But no one could find the stockpiles. And the liberal press seems to be focusing on that.

Elder: It seems to me that this is a huge, huge story.

Loftus: It's embarrassing to the (press). They've staked their reputations that this stuff wasn't there. And now all of a sudden we have al Qaeda agents from Iraq showing up with weapons of mass destruction.

Elder: David Kay said, in an interim report, that there was a possibility that WMD components were shipped to Syria.

Loftus: A possibility? We had a Syrian journalist who defected to Paris in January. The guy is dying of cancer, and he said, "Look, my friends in Syrian intelligence told me exactly where the stuff is buried." He named three sites in Syria, and the Israelis have confirmed the three sites. They know where the stuff is, but the problem is that the United States can't just go around invading Arab countries. . . . We know from Israeli and defectors' intelligence that the son of the Syrian defense minister was paid 50 million bucks to bring the stuff across the border and bury it.

Elder: Why would al Qaeda attack Jordan?

Loftus: Jordan is an ally of the United States. It's at peace with Israel. And Jordan has a long history of trying to prosecute terrorists. . . . There are a lot of reasons. . . . They want to make an example of them. They want to terrorize as many of the Arab states as possible. This is sort of a political dream for the president. The worst nightmare is al Qaeda gets weapons of mass destruction from Iraq. And it looks like it's coming true.



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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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