Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #60 on: 2004-05-06 19:03:23 »
...considering that the realistic result of turning away from truth seroms will be physical torture etc. i would say 'yes' to the truth serom alternatives. they are very very effective by the way...ive experienced it. the only problem is that people tend to gush on about all sorts of things, some irrellevant, some misleading...plus slurred speach and lack of motivation to accurately depict things, intel will be challenged to derive accurate renditions at times.
DrSebby. "Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows---- From: Jei <jei@cc.hut.fi> Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com To: virus@lucifer.com Subject: Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 23:14:39 +0300 (EEST)
Funnily, I think some day in the future we will be able to scan and read the brains directly. Even now, we can tell if a subject has knowledge on a subject by showing a picture and having him on a "brain scanner" of sorts... Read a story on it someplace a while back..
- There is no reason why memory imprints shouldn't be readable in the future. The only question is how to interpret them, and perhaps transfer them to a computer, and "reboot" the human system there.
Some immortality fans here might wish to freeze & donate their brains to such research use, after their expiration date?
As to the treating of prisoners, I think both sides should stick to Geneva Accords. You can't ask for one thing and do something else yourself when it comes to these things.
Do you think it's OK if Americans are subjected to questionably working "truth serums" while held prisoner, against their will?
What goes around, comes around. Americans tend to forget it and lash out only when "their own prisoners are shown walking on TV" by their captors- oh god, how humiliated they must have been, and all against the Geneva Accords... Gosh..
A treaty has meaning when both sides respect it. What would you think is OK when it comes to the treatment of your son that is caught and held prisoner? Somehow Americans find this so incredibly hard to think.
I'm sure American prisoners will equally give valuable information to the other side when suitably tortured.
Why isn't it OK then? - You tell me?
On Thu, 6 May 2004, Dr Sebby wrote:
> ....psychological abuse of Iraqi prisoners apparently HAS resulted in the > aquisition of valuable information leading to the capture or neutralization > of dangerous militants. how much of the burden lies with their own > extremist/nutcase philosophies? at what point do we stop listening to what > captured enemy declare as "inhumane"? In truth, there is nothing evil about > their naked bodies or womens underwear...so just because THEY find > irrational things traumatizing, should our military have to respect these > things? > > ....regardless, this sort of thing cant be done.(unfortunately). for the > simple reason that it will motivate their forces to do the same with > captured u.s. soldiers. i still feel that various truth drugs be open to > administration with suitable medical staff on hand - as these can be very > productive and provide a substitute approach to information gathering. > > DrSebby. > "Courage...and shuffle the cards". --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
Re: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #61 on: 2004-05-06 19:08:26 »
....Walter, just because you put popsicle sticks in your dog's butt and it doesnt complain, doesnt exclude you from the geneva convention on such activities. until such time that the world's dogs get a seat in the U.N., i suppose such peace-time atrocities as yours will continue to occur without intervention.
DrSebby. "Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows---- From: Walter Watts <wlwatts@cox.net> Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com To: virus@lucifer.com Subject: Re: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 15:30:51 -0500
Re: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
Oh, jesus dog almighty on a popsickle stick, I'm fucking begging you people let's don't start this up again......
Respectfully, Walter
--
Walter Watts Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Pursue the small utopias... nature, music, friendship, love" --Kupferberg--
The US is definitely not on the same level of depravity as those it has recently faced in battle, Jei (although it has to be that way for you, because you so much WAAAANT it that way).
People are (genetically) practically the same all over, but the worldviews (memeplexes) that members of differing societies and cultures carry around in their heads also differ, and those differing memesets contribute to the manifestation of different behaviors, patterned according to different standards.
And the US is busily assisting the Iraqis in crafting a true independence that the citizenry can enjoy and that the country can hold on to. If the US cuts and runs rather than sticking it out, Iraq would probably follow the same path that Afghanistan did after the Soviet pullout. This would be a danger to both its own people and to those of other nations, but would most likely delight Jei, as anything that might cause the US or its people pain or discomfort seems to delight him so.
> ...considering that the realistic result of turning away from truth seroms > will be physical torture etc. i would say 'yes' to the truth serom > alternatives. they are very very effective by the way...ive experienced it. > the only problem is that people tend to gush on about all sorts of things, > some irrellevant, some misleading...plus slurred speach and lack of > motivation to accurately depict things, intel will be challenged to derive > accurate renditions at times. > > DrSebby. > "Courage...and shuffle the cards".
That is genuinely very interesting. You were voluntarily tested with them?
I wonder if there's a first-hand account/experiences somewhere on the net..
Baghdad - US CentCom braced for an international human rights backlash today, as it released another raft of photos detailing widespread inmate abuse and humiliation at the hands of US guards at the notorious Al Ghraib prison.
In the newly released photos, masked Iraqi prisoners are shown forming human pyramids, stuffing Volkswagens, eating live goldfish and pounding 'beer bongs,' all under the supervision of laughing US guards.
[Kalkor] LOL!!!!! Thank you Joe, I thoroughly enjoyed that! It is heartening to see people take a step back once in a while, and this kind of Onion-esque reporting can give one perspective.
I think it's interesting to note, from a memetic standpoint, that most of the examples of mistreatment in this were similar to forms of hazing, a way of cementing social groups. And with the social group comes the outgroup, UT-style.
I would also like anyone who feels they are able, to point out some war throughout history that meets these two qualifications:
1) People killed each other 2) No one was tortured, not even for information
I am of the opinion that the use of torture, having survived so many succesful and failed conquests and conflicts, has been proven to be an effective tool for waging war. Regardless of the arguments for and against the need for war, or the circumstances under which it should (or shouldn't) be waged, I think it is paramount to realize that when something ends up being done, it should be done with the greatest efficacy and efficiency. And that means use the tools that are tested, proven, tried-and-true, while seeking and testing other tools. So it should be in war.
Hopefully, we'll outgrow wholesale slaughter as our species grows "smarter" or creates something that does. Until then, using war as a tool to achieve an end is an accepted strategy, and using torture to wage war is another good gamble. More power to those soldiers being shot at, who are using the tools we've taught them in high school and college, to build group solidarity and harden themselves to the idea that, for UT reasons, they may have to kill another human being.
Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #66 on: 2004-05-07 05:19:32 »
....from the looks of it Joe, even if the U.S. were able to pull off an amazing success, the resulting democracy would quickly elect another extremist islamic regime, which over time would pretty much put the whole democracy thing behind them again. the minds and education of the people wont change just because of a temporarily forced 'democracy'.
The US is definitely not on the same level of depravity as those it has recently faced in battle, Jei (although it has to be that way for you, because you so much WAAAANT it that way).
People are (genetically) practically the same all over, but the worldviews (memeplexes) that members of differing societies and cultures carry around in their heads also differ, and those differing memesets contribute to the manifestation of different behaviors, patterned according to different standards.
And the US is busily assisting the Iraqis in crafting a true independence that the citizenry can enjoy and that the country can hold on to. If the US cuts and runs rather than sticking it out, Iraq would probably follow the same path that Afghanistan did after the soviet pullout. This would be a danger to both its own people and to those of other nations, but would most likely delight Jei, as anything that might cause the US or its people pain or discomfort seems to delight him so.
_________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #67 on: 2004-05-07 05:31:23 »
...no, it wasnt sodium pentathol or some-such thing. it was effectively the exact same thing though....more dangerous however and thus not used for such purposes. it was simply being knocked out for very minor surgery for a broken nose...naturally requiring an anathesiologist. it was in Tokyo, and unlike the standard practise of tranquilizing the patient first, they just gave it to me straight off...it was one of the weirdest "trips" i couldve imagined. i'll tell you about the actual experience later. but for now i'll jump straight to the end...when i was coming out of it. i was in a semi-concious state....babbling about anything and everything. luckily they didnt speak much english, and i somehow got stuck on reciting poetry....but if my mind had wandered or been led to anything else...and i mean ANYTHING, i wouldve had absolutely NO problem yapping about it in the most painfully honest of terms. i wouldve freely and openly discussed any and all of my most personal insecurities, embarrassing deeds, deepest feelings etc....without the slightest touch of reservation. i realized this soon after emerging into full conciousness and self-control and quickly imagined what curious things doctors are often treated to in such circumstances. the best way i can describe it is that i had absolutely ZERO awareness of the real world, my physical being, my involvement in some sort of real world, or who the hell i was talking to or for.
DrSebby. "Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows---- From: Jei <jei@cc.hut.fi> Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com To: virus@lucifer.com Subject: Re:virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 02:20:06 +0300 (EEST)
On Fri, 7 May 2004, Dr Sebby wrote:
> ...considering that the realistic result of turning away from truth seroms > will be physical torture etc. i would say 'yes' to the truth serom > alternatives. they are very very effective by the way...ive experienced it. > the only problem is that people tend to gush on about all sorts of things, > some irrellevant, some misleading...plus slurred speach and lack of > motivation to accurately depict things, intel will be challenged to derive > accurate renditions at times. > > DrSebby. > "Courage...and shuffle the cards".
That is genuinely very interesting. You were voluntarily tested with them?
I wonder if there's a first-hand account/experiences somewhere on the net..
RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #68 on: 2004-05-07 06:01:47 »
Yes yes. I agree dear Kalkor, this is would be a blatant fallacy but for one thing - I am not excusing the abuses at all, I am putting them in perspective.
Bad --> Worse --> Worst
People have variously describe these abuses as abhorrent, horrific, utterly disgusting etc. These hysterical reactions and hyperbolic descriptions do not help. Yes, the abuse is bad, but it is nothing in the wider context of war crimes and abuses. Using the wording of condemnation it would appear that making prisoners pile up naked or being laughed at by female soldiers is somehow equivalent
Pundits say that these photos have cause massive damage and the Arab world now see the brutal core at the heart of western society. I dispute this. What they see is the entire Western world in uproar at the behaviour of a few soldiers doing things that are commonplace in any Arab police station or prison.
Just because it is bad by our standards does not mean it is the same as our enemies bad. They are in a different league and that is why criticism from their ranks is unwelcome and hypocritical.
So, whilst I approve and am proud of our military and social reaction to these photos and allegations, I am similarly completely dismissive of the hypocritical denunciations from emanating from the Arab street. I am reminding everyone that whilst what happened is bad, it is comparatively minor. Whilst the US Army is right to stamp out this sort of activity within its ranks, it is way beyond reproach from the Islamist enemy and the Arab Street that supports that enemy.
Have anything on Islamist methods of torture? I thought you might have some of those video clips of people being set alight, having their arms pulled off my jeeps, their testicles cut off or throats cut?
Given that the US army dished out less violence to those Iraqis than was typically dished out to army recruits (before hazing was banned), I think they got off lightly.
Using words like "Torture" and "Abhorrent" is a bit strong. What words do we have left for things like Daniel Perle being sliced open on tape? Are people seriously suggesting there is some equivalence between this ultra-rare conduct of rogue soldiers and what is routine in the Islamic world (torture and murder of prisoners)?
Oh ye innocents.
[Blunderov] My dear friend Limbic I must protest! This is a blatant tu quoque and I know you know better.
What on earth have the enemies' alleged practices got to do with anything?
Torture Lite is still torture. It is still abhorrent. There is no such thing as a 'little bit abhorrent'.
Oh, jesus dog almighty on a popsickle stick, I'm fucking begging you people let's don't start this up again......
Respectfully, Walter
[Blunderov] It does seem pointless going over the same old ground - although I am impressed at the relative restraint which has (so far) been exercised.
Thinking real-politiek; what is to be done? How is Iraq to be handed back to its citizens without compounding what is already a catastrophe?
The Coalition are in a bind; they can neither stay nor leave.
My suggestion is that they hand over to a Council of Muslim clerics and abandon any notion of trying to run elections while a war is raging.
In this way the power vacuum will be filled and the coalition will be seen by Arabs to be sincere about 'freedom'.
Now here is a wild idea and let me say in advance that I don't expect to be taken seriously but here goes:
our Christian leaders must build a Mosque, alongside a memorial to the dead of 9/11, at ground zero!
RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
« Reply #71 on: 2004-05-07 06:37:53 »
"America has killed more people than any other country in history."
Is this a joke?
Defend this assertion please. I look forward to you showing the US has killed at least 30 million people.
Regards
Jonathan
-----Original Message----- From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of Erik Aronesty Sent: 07 May 2004 01:18 To: Church of Virus Subject: Re: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
: My bet goes on America to being : the next country to blow up nukes : on foreign : soil.
I think we hold that honor already.
America has killed more people than any other country in history.
We're the kings of body count, and the masters at spinning every aggressive move into claims self-defense.
> The US is definitely not on the same level of depravity as those it has > recently faced in battle, Jei (although it has to be that way for you, > because you so much WAAAANT it that way).
Joe, that is a matter of definition of depravity and opinion. And since when have you become such an expert in what I want?
It seems to me that it is you, Americans, who are like rabid believers, actively ignoring and explaining away all the facts that contradict your belief in the Almighty America the Righteous Nation, instead of looking at the facts on the ground of what you are doing.
Amnesty International has plenty of reports, but I don't suppose any of you even bother to follow them, since they've been plenty critical of America's conduct as well.
> And the US is busily assisting the Iraqis in crafting a true > independence that the citizenry can enjoy and that the country can hold > on to.
That is what you may believe, indeed it is what your TV is saying 24/7, but is that really your governments' real and ultimate goal, the driving force behind the decition to go to War?
I think the ultimate goal was stated in the PNAC documents, and that is to gain control over oil and strategic oil producing region. - Nobody goes to war for any other reason than profit.
People certainly don't go around making democracies and bashing dictators out of the goodness of their hearts. Indeed, US has a consistent habit of destroying democracies that don't suite their tastes, such as in Iran, and the more recent attempt to overthrow the government & president in Venezuela. There's PLENTY of examples to go around of this.
> If the US cuts and runs rather than sticking it out, Iraq would > probably follow the same path that Afghanistan did after the soviet > pullout.
It didn't do that bad, until you bombed their mud-huts back to stone age.
Well, at least the US seems to have gotten Afghanistan's opium production back to record levels, after the Taleban had eliminated from the country near totally. Good work, I guess we will see opium production take root in Iraq as well.
> This would be a danger to both its own people and to those of > other nations, but would most likely delight Jei, as anything that might > cause the US or its people pain or discomfort seems to delight him so.
Don't put words in my mouth Joe. I don't wish bad to anybody in this world. The fact is that I can see the real motives behind PR-talk, while you choose to ignore the reality and prefer to stick to the rosy fantasies of your government's PR-agency.
You are living in a dark hole, Joe. You may choose to dig yourself deeper, but the ugly reality is still there. I really pity you Joe, 48 years old, and you're still incapable of thinking outside of your little box. --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
> : My bet goes on America to being > : the next country to blow up nukes > : on foreign > : soil. > > I think we hold that honor already.
Yes, but the next time they will be used.
Anyone care to make a bet? Will it be Israel or N. Korea, Iraq, Iran, Syria, or US?
I bet it will be US ships nuking Iran. Second bet would be on Israel nuking Iran. --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
> [Kalkor] > > I would also like anyone who feels they are able, to point out some war > throughout history that meets these two qualifications: > > 1) People killed each other > 2) No one was tortured, not even for information
Can't think of any, but I'm not a historian..
> I am of the opinion that the use of torture, having survived so many > succesful and failed conquests and conflicts, has been proven to be an > effective tool for waging war. Regardless of the arguments for and against > the need for war, or the circumstances under which it should (or shouldn't) > be waged, I think it is paramount to realize that when something ends up > being done, it should be done with the greatest efficacy and efficiency. And > that means use the tools that are tested, proven, tried-and-true, while > seeking and testing other tools. So it should be in war. > > Hopefully, we'll outgrow wholesale slaughter as our species grows "smarter" > or creates something that does. Until then, using war as a tool to achieve > an end is an accepted strategy, and using torture to wage war is another > good gamble. More power to those soldiers being shot at, who are using the > tools we've taught them in high school and college, to build group > solidarity and harden themselves to the idea that, for UT reasons, they may > have to kill another human being.
Yeah, all hail US troops doing a swell honest job torturing Iraqis and conquering US more oil fields. Efficiency in all things and that.
But wait, what is the US president saying? - He says they're not doing it. And so does his pal Tony Blair. - Now, I'm at a loss.
- What I'd really like to do away with is the lies. People like Joe Dees buy into that shit they say and get stuck too deeply to think straight.
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