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   Author  Topic: virus: I have a good idea  (Read 7766 times)
simul
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Re: virus: I have a good idea
« Reply #15 on: 2003-12-03 08:53:46 »
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Cynicism can be defined as the opposite of faith. 

When a person strongly doubts something without having any reason to doubt it.  The people who dispute the moon landing can be regarded as cynical.

Humanity needs its cynics in order to open up new areas of knowledge.  Likewise, society needs its faithful to provide the raw muscle that backs up its propositions.

But a Virian is held to a higher standard.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
David Lucifer
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Re: virus: I have a good idea
« Reply #16 on: 2003-12-03 09:44:56 »
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Erik Aronesty wrote:
> Cynicism can be defined as the opposite of faith.

I wasn't aware that "cynicism" had such different definitions for
different people here. I was using it in the sense of "An attitude
of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of
the integrity or professed motives of others" and "scornfully or
jadedly negative comment or act".

Does anyone here think that should be a virtue?
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metahuman
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Re:virus: I have a good idea
« Reply #17 on: 2003-12-03 12:34:11 »
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[simul
Cynicism is cool! YIPPPEEEEEE! YAAAAY! HOORAY FOR BOOBIES!

[David Lucifer]
Does anyone here think that should be a virtue?

[metahuman]
No, simul usually has strange definitions at which we can laugh. He's confusing cynicism with skepticism and adding a little bit of generalization here and there.

http://www.wordsmyth.net/live/home.php?script=search&matchent=cynical

I like how "agnostic" is a crossreferenced synonym with "cynical." Pfft...
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Re: virus: I have a good idea
« Reply #18 on: 2003-12-03 15:13:12 »
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Not a virtue.  I was just pointing out that it wasn't necessarily a sin, unless you consider faith, also to be a sin.  Faith being the opposite of cynicsm.

Cynicism: blind distrust
Faith: blind trust

Either way, you're blind...

And lack

Vision.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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Re: virus: I have a good idea
« Reply #19 on: 2003-12-05 08:04:36 »
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Erik Aronesty wrote:
> Not a virtue.  I was just pointing out that it wasn't necessarily a
> sin, unless you consider faith, also to be a sin.  Faith being the
> opposite of cynicsm. 

Actually faith was the original sin of the CoV. It was renamed to
dogmatism during the great phaith wars of '99 because some vocal
members equated faith with trust without regard for the validity
of the trust.

See http://www.lucifer.com/virus/virus.2Q99/0698.html

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metahuman
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Re:virus: I have a good idea
« Reply #20 on: 2003-12-05 12:55:24 »
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[Lucifer]
Actually faith was the original sin of the CoV. It was renamed to
dogmatism during the great phaith wars of '99 because some vocal
members equated faith with trust without regard for the validity
of the trust.

[metahuman]
The validity of trust is situationally-dependent and still trust is inherently irrational.

The TRUST in "God" as an example is an irrational trust.

The TRUST in your peer(s) to do a good job based on their past efforts is also irrational for TRUST is also hope. It's a suggestion.

With that said, the fact that trust is irrational does not mean that trust is always a bad decision. It only means that trust has a higher chance of leading to the wrong decision than say, scientific or rational inquiry and acceptance of truth based on the results of extensive analyses. The same goes without saying: a rational action does not always lead to a good decision. It just means that action has a higher chance of leading to a good decision.
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Re:virus: I have a good idea
« Reply #21 on: 2003-12-05 17:45:28 »
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Let me see if I understand metahuman correctly.  Trust, in the case that interests us here, requires the trustee to be a moral agent (so we're not talking about trust in the behavior of inanimate things like computers and bouncing balls, or trust in imaginary things like gods).  Trust is deemed to be irrational since a moral agent can make decisions that are themselves irrational or simply unexpected.

For example, if I've been married to my wife for 50 years and every morning when I wake up, I prepare coffee for both of us, it is irrational for my wife to "trust" that I will do so again tomorrow because I might simply decide that I'm just not going to do it anymore.

I wonder if we'd get a different result, were we to expand the definition of trust to be more inclusive and to express the definition in Bayesian terms.  It seems to me that every action we take is based on some level of trust in achieving a particular result.  From this perspective, trust simply refers to the amount of confidence that we have in a particular hypothesis. 

Surely, we can't say that trust, according to this new definition, is irrational.  Or is it still?
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David Lucifer
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Re:virus: I have a good idea
« Reply #22 on: 2003-12-05 18:25:19 »
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Quote from: Ophis on 2003-12-05 17:45:28   

I wonder if we'd get a different result, were we to expand the definition of trust to be more inclusive and to express the definition in Bayesian terms.  It seems to me that every action we take is based on some level of trust in achieving a particular result.  From this perspective, trust simply refers to the amount of confidence that we have in a particular hypothesis. 

Surely, we can't say that trust, according to this new definition, is irrational.  Or is it still?

[Lucifer] Trust is only irrational if your confidence diverges from the Bayesian result. If applying Bayes theorem indicates that you should have 95% confidence in a future event occurring and you actually have 80% or 100% confidence or you think the event won't occur, then you are guilty of faith. The degree of faith you have is easily quantifiable as the difference between your confidence and what a perfect Bayesian machine with your experience would have.
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Re:virus: I have a good idea
« Reply #23 on: 2003-12-05 19:17:49 »
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[Ophis]
<snip> ...to expand the definition of trust to be more inclusive and to express the definition in Bayesian terms. <snip>

[meta]
As soon as the discussion includes anything mathematics-related, I'm out of the conversation. ;p
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Re:virus: I have a good idea
« Reply #24 on: 2003-12-05 23:36:32 »
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[[ author reputation (0.00) beneath threshold (3)... display message ]]

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Sum ergo cogito
simul
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Re: virus: I have a good idea
« Reply #25 on: 2003-12-06 02:22:58 »
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Trust is already defined in Bayesian terms.  It's how our brains work.  We can't avoid it.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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Re:virus: I have a good idea
« Reply #26 on: 2003-12-06 02:55:31 »
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[Epistaxis]
I'm bothered by metahuman's mathematics allergy...

The math/science allergy is another harmful epidemic of a meme.

...this meme spreads by telling people they can be so lazy as to ignore even that step...

I believe that's why metahuman said this; if he/she weren't infested with this meme, he/she would either have succeeded in understanding the rather simple topics involved or would have sought aid, instead of just saying "I don't get it" and expecting that to win friendship.

[metahuman]
First of all, I could care less about friendship as friendship is trust's method of memetic manipulation. Friendship is an illusion. Anyone that says otherwise has been manipulated.

Secondly, all belief is essentially irrational, and your belief in such a thing also includes an unsupported assertion. You're trying to psychoanalyze me by guessing. Psst! It's not working out so well, tiger.

Thirdly, I am NOT allergic to mathematics. I simply prefer non-mathematical discussions.

Finally, I do mean offense to you when I say this: fuck off asshole!

Never insinuate that I am ignorant, lazy, stupid, unpopular, infested, incapable of comprehension of "simple" topics, or interested in friendship... ever again. In fact, I want you to stay away from using my name or any of my aliases from now on. I want you to completely ignore me. Do not reference me at all.

Cynicism and skepticism are not interchangeable. Look up the words in a dictionary since you obviously do not what the fuck they mean.

You need to back off, jerk. Drop your pro-math ego and try to be a bit more sociable just, like I said, stay away from me.
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simul
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Re: virus: I have a good idea
« Reply #27 on: 2003-12-06 15:10:37 »
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People are all very, very good at calculations.  Ony some people, however, have taken time to translate their innate ability into numbers and symbols.

Perhaps the problem with mathematics, as taught, is that we spend too much time telling kids how to do math, and too little time letting them experience, discover, recognize and verbalize their innate mathematical abilities.  When that is done, it reinvigorates interest and confidence.

------

Conversation with a young girl: 

I finished adding them up, but I know it's wrong.  (Her answer: 55 real answer 57)

How do you know it's wrong?

I just can tell

Do you think it's too big or too small?

Too small.

By how much?

Two or three.

What would your answer be if it was two or three bigger?

57 or 58

Which one seems more right to you?

I don't know

Does 58 seem too small or big?

Big.

Does 57 seem too small or big?

No.

So which one feels closer?

57

Right. 

Now remember how we did that.  Did you like it?

Yes!

It's the art of refining estimation, and it is an important math skill that you do all the time, and that some people, like you, are very good at.

You can use your built-in math skills to spot-check your answers to help you on tests.  Not everyone does this.  This will help you throughout you math career.

And if you keep in mind how we came up with the answer, you'll learn math faster.

------

Regarding education as a science.  I've spoken with many teachers since founding nypif.org - and most of them agree that advanced educational methods are something that most teachers have not learned.  My next door neighbor trains teachers how to teach for a living... so I know a bit about this.

-----Original Message-----
From: "metahuman" <v1@metavirus.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 00:55:31
To:virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: I have a good idea


[Epistaxis]
I'm bothered by metahuman's mathematics allergy...

The math/science allergy is another harmful epidemic of a meme.

...this meme spreads by telling people they can be so lazy as to ignore even that step...

I believe that's why metahuman said this; if he/she weren't infested with this meme, he/she would either have succeeded in understanding the rather simple topics involved or would have sought aid, instead of just saying "I don't get it" and expecting that to win friendship.

[metahuman]
First of all, I could care less about friendship as friendship is trust's method of memetic manipulation. Friendship is an illusion. Anyone that says otherwise has been manipulated.

Secondly, all belief is essentially irrational, and your belief in such a thing also includes an unsupported assertion. You're trying to psychoanalyze me by guessing. Psst! It's not working out so well, tiger.

Thirdly, I am NOT allergic to mathematics. I simply prefer non-mathematical discussions.

Finally, I do mean offense to you when I say this: fuck off asshole!

Never insinuate that I am ignorant, lazy, stupid, unpopular, infested, incapable of comprehension of "simple" topics, or interested in friendship... ever again. In fact, I want you to stay away from using my name or any of my aliases from now on. I want you to completely ignore me. Do not reference me at all.

Cynicism and skepticism are not interchangeable. Look up the words in a dictionary since you obviously do not what the fuck they mean.

You need to back off, jerk. Drop your pro-math ego and try to be a bit more sociable just, like I said, stay away from me.

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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
David Lucifer
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Re:virus: I have a good idea
« Reply #28 on: 2003-12-07 11:22:30 »
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[meta] As soon as the discussion includes anything mathematics-related, I'm out of the conversation. ;p

[Lucifer] Statistics and probabilities are essential to making predictions scientifically. If you avoid math, you restrict yourself to intuitive predictions with all its inherent pitfalls. Do you really want to handicap yourself that way?
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simul
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Re: virus: I have a good idea
« Reply #29 on: 2003-12-08 01:09:08 »
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Friendship is not an "illusion". A friend is someone you can count on for certain things.

I always considered a friend to be someone who I could count on to play a game with.

Some people count as friends people who listen to them, and respond to what they say based on what they said, rather than based on their own agenda or interest.

I like my definition better because, deep down, it's the same definition... only simpler.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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