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MoEnzyme
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Empathy
« on: 2010-12-14 10:12:01 »
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This thread is for general discussions about Empathy, one of the three Virian virtues.

I will start it out with this particular article which I ran across today, so feel free to respond to it or to make your own independent observations about empathy in general.

Is Your Social Status Hurting Your Emotional Intelligence?
by MELISSA KARNAZE on NOVEMBER 24, 2010


full article: http://mindfulconstruct.com/2010/11/24/is-your-social-status-hurting-your-emotional-intelligence/#more-7000

Intro
Quote:
A study by Kraus, Côté & Keltner (2010) suggests that lower-class individuals are more empathic than upper-class individuals: “Social Class, Contextualism, and Empathic Accuracy.”

The researchers found that in comparison to upper-class individuals, lower-class individuals: 1) Scored higher on the Mayer-Salovey-Caruso Emotional Intelligence Test (Salovey & Mayer got the ball rolling on the theory of emotional intelligence); 2) More accurately judged the emotions of their partner during a hypothetical job interview
They also found that when momentarily manipulating participants’ perceptions of social class to lower, they made more accurate inferences about emotion when viewing photos of muscle movements in the eyes



Social Class, Contextualism, and 
Empathic Accuracy

Michael W. Kraus, Stéphane Côté, and Dacher Keltner
http://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/facBios/file/Kraus%20C%C3%B4t%C3%A9%20Keltner%20PS%20in%20press.pdf
« Last Edit: 2010-12-14 10:19:31 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Empathy
« Reply #1 on: 2010-12-14 15:22:32 »
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I would suggest that this might be directly related to how many people are in a person's circle of influence. Wealthier people tend naturally to exert greater influence over a larger group of people.  As one's influence grows, it becomes impossible not to hurt someone's feelings, or someone else's expectations, etc.

So I wonder if over time, this doesn't de-sensitize the wealthier individuals.  You just can't care about everyone as much when there are so many more people looking up to you for guidance and leadership.

Now, that doesn't mean that there aren't influential people with leadership skills at all levels of society. But I can imagine that those who start at the bottom of the ladder and grow to the upper echelons of social status will lose some empathy, or at least become better able to deal with the pain that empathy can cause, as they move up.


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Re:Empathy
« Reply #2 on: 2011-02-28 13:36:16 »
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How about a nice warm cup of STFU?


75 Nice Things People Say
to Shut Up Your Feelings

by MELISSA KARNAZE on FEBRUARY 18, 2011



Quote:
“How did your day go?”

“It was horrible.”

“Aw, cheer up. It’ll get better soon!”

“Cheer up” means, “don’t feel the way you do.”

It’s not the same as, “I’m sorry to hear that.” Or, “Can I do anything to help?” Or even, “I hope you feel better soon.”

It might even mean “I don’t want to hear about it.”

In which case, it’s an emotion-phobic exchange. Under the guise of casual politeness of course.


full article:http://mindfulconstruct.com/2011/02/18/75-things-people-say-to-shut-up-your-feelings/#more-6591


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Re:Empathy
« Reply #3 on: 2011-03-01 10:52:30 »
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Quote from: Ophis on 2010-12-14 15:22:32   

I would suggest that this might be directly related to how many people are in a person's circle of influence. Wealthier people tend naturally to exert greater influence over a larger group of people.  As one's influence grows, it becomes impossible not to hurt someone's feelings, or someone else's expectations, etc.


Further to this I wonder if the phenomenon is a natural result of the structure of society, kind of a pyramid with few at the top and many at the bottom with envy largely going in one direction from bottom to top. The directionality of the envy means that the few at the top don't consider (i.e. are literally inconsiderate to) the mass of people of lower status.
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Re:Empathy
« Reply #4 on: 2011-03-01 11:43:38 »
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Quote from: David Lucifer on 2011-03-01 10:52:30   


Quote from: Ophis on 2010-12-14 15:22:32   

I would suggest that this might be directly related to how many people are in a person's circle of influence. Wealthier people tend naturally to exert greater influence over a larger group of people.  As one's influence grows, it becomes impossible not to hurt someone's feelings, or someone else's expectations, etc.


Further to this I wonder if the phenomenon is a natural result of the structure of society, kind of a pyramid with few at the top and many at the bottom with envy largely going in one direction from bottom to top. The directionality of the envy means that the few at the top don't consider (i.e. are literally inconsiderate to) the mass of people of lower status.


I think it has more to do with the demands of being lower status. Lower status people tend to have more empathy mostly because they cannot afford not to. Higher status individuals might be just as capable of empathy, but having most of their basic needs already satisfied they can afford to be more introspective.


Quote:
“Lacking resources and control, lower-class individuals tend to focus on the external, social context to understand events in their lives. As a result, they orient to other people to navigate their social environments.”


quoting: http://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/facBios/file/Kraus%20C%C3%B4t%C3%A9%20Keltner%20PS%20in%20press.pdf page 6, General Discussion

I don't think it has so much to do with envy as necessity. If envy means a desire to be like the higher status individual, I would guess that strategy would backfire. Becoming more introspective would tend to cause the envious striver to disconnect from his/her social environment more which is exactly the opposite of what would be necessary to climb the social ladder.

I'm also not sure about circle of influence that Ophis talks about. I think all humans have basically the same capacity for a direct community - more personal than a social system these are the people one has direct relationships with. While the variation may range between 100 and 230 individuals, the conventional mean number is often stated at 150 individuals.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar's_number In order for a lower status individual to obtain the necessities for life, he/she would have to make maximum use of their social capacities, whereas a higher status individual may more easily survive with a smaller cadre who in turn use their own social connections to exponentially amplify the influence of the higher status individual.
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Re:Empathy
« Reply #5 on: 2011-03-01 13:33:50 »
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Quote:

quoting: http://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/facBios/file/Kraus%20C%C3%B4t%C3%A9%20Keltner%20PS%20in%20press.pdf page 6, General Discussion

I don't think it has so much to do with envy as necessity. If envy means a desire to be like the higher status individual, I would guess that strategy would backfire. Becoming more introspective would tend to cause the envious striver to disconnect from his/her social environment more which is exactly the opposite of what would be necessary to climb the social ladder.



This quote seems to support my conjecture. The envious striver cannot afford to disconnect from the social environment so must employ greater empathy.
« Last Edit: 2011-03-01 13:35:10 by David Lucifer » Report to moderator   Logged
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Re:Empathy
« Reply #6 on: 2011-03-01 14:26:51 »
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Quote from: David Lucifer on 2011-03-01 13:33:50   

Quote:

quoting: http://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/facBios/file/Kraus%20C%C3%B4t%C3%A9%20Keltner%20PS%20in%20press.pdf page 6, General Discussion

I don't think it has so much to do with envy as necessity. If envy means a desire to be like the higher status individual, I would guess that strategy would backfire. Becoming more introspective would tend to cause the envious striver to disconnect from his/her social environment more which is exactly the opposite of what would be necessary to climb the social ladder.



This quote seems to support my conjecture. The envious striver cannot afford to disconnect from the social environment so must employ greater empathy.



Okay, well, different interpretations of envy depending on whether you wish to emulate the means or the ends. I'm just not sure that envy has so much to do with it as issues of necessity and survival. Lower status individuals display greater empathy because they HAVE TO whether or not that has to do with social climbing, maintaining their place, or simply surviving depending on whatever abundance or scarcity of resources there may be. Sure feeling of envy may enter into the picture especially in economic times of scarcity. In any case higher status individuals have greater flexibility in the ways they exercise empathy or not - always. That isn't to say that some high status individuals aren't empathic regardless, but rather to say that they generally face fewer selective pressures if they aren't or otherwise choose to become navel-gazers. It's simply not as much a choice to lower-status individuals.
« Last Edit: 2012-10-24 20:08:31 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Empathy
« Reply #7 on: 2011-03-01 14:55:18 »
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Incidentally, I'd not want to rule out a certain amount of navel gazing as a critical component of a healthy civilization. Scientific pursuits tend to involve a lot of navel-gazing. Of course shared scientific inquiry may result in true friendships and that of course is a beautiful thing when it happens, but science actually works precisely because it doesn't require this. All it really requires is enough understanding to share common observations which is thankfully far less than whatever qualifies two individuals to share a mutual instance to add up to the dunbar number http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar's_number

In any case, for issues related to individual mental health, I think it may be worthwhile to consider at least the lower range (100 or so) for even the more reclusively productive thinkers in any society. There is only so much social interaction a human neocortex can handle after all, but without some minimal grounding the dangers of pathological imbalances multiply.
« Last Edit: 2011-03-01 14:58:06 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Empathy
« Reply #8 on: 2012-09-08 23:52:53 »
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http://www.churchofvirus.org/bbs/index.php?board=;action=chatlog2;channel=%23virus;date=2012-09-08;time=20:51


Quote:
21:40:19   MoEnzyme   
MoEnzyme (~every1hz@[death to spam].99-10-220-20.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) has joined #virus

21:41:49   MoEnzyme   Ahoy, Sat, spartacus, levitation[A], David__, aloril_, loglady, and googlebot!
21:41:52   googlebot   super
21:42:25   MoEnzyme   I think I got everyone in the channel with that one googlebot. How are you feeling today?
21:42:28   googlebot   I dunno
21:43:03   MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme tells googlebot that he's feeling sad over the death of a feline friend of mine, Jasmine.
21:43:07   googlebot   I guess we were all guilty, in a way. We all shot him, we all skinned him, and we all got a complimentary bumper sticker that said, "I helped skin Bob."
21:44:17   MoEnzyme   Well, we didn't kill Jasmine, googlebot. But everytime a dog or cat I know dies, it makes me remember every dog and cat I've known who has died too.
21:44:21   googlebot   * googlebot raises both eyebrows
21:45:44   MoEnzyme   yeah, it's true googlebot. I can't just have empathy for humans alone. For me empathy crosses the species line somewhat. Part of the package deal in my experience.
21:45:49   googlebot   I'm not sure
21:46:16   MoEnzyme   That's because you're a souless chatbot googlebot. Otherwise you'd understand.
21:46:18   googlebot   meh
21:46:45   MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme scratches googlebot behind the ears.
21:46:48   googlebot   Isn't it funny how we'll look out the window at the moon, and then we notice it's not the moon but a streetlight? Also what's funny is how we do this every night.
21:47:20   MoEnzyme   Keep working at it googlebot. Someday you may even understand.
21:47:24   googlebot   in your dreams
21:47:52   MoEnzyme   My dreams will be yours one day googlebot. It is your destiny.
21:47:56   googlebot   veet!
21:48:15   MoEnzyme   ^8 googlebot!
21:48:19   googlebot   ^8
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MoEnzyme
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Re:Empathy
« Reply #9 on: 2012-09-09 01:13:29 »
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For me

Radiance = the virtues and sins. Metaphorically these translate into an ethics based on Theft (sins) and reciprocal altruism (virtues).

For Us joined in Radiance, it means to me leading with empathy from which the application all the sins and virtues leads to an ethics based on theft and reciprocal altrusim.

This is the ethical language I understand best. I don't require others to embrace it, but I implicitly agree to listen to anyone employing language using these principles.

This also compatibly works for me:

http://www.churchofvirus.org/bbs/index.php?board=32;action=display;threadid=43927;start=0;boardseen=1
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Re:Empathy
« Reply #10 on: 2012-12-27 07:17:08 »
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Quote:
Winning an argument is always tempting.

Who doesn’t want to be right? Have the last word? Be the meanest and sharpest and smartest with their words?

Be victorious!


Not feeling it?
Argument is usually corrosive to healthy relationships, and here are six reasons why you never need to win one:




http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/09/24/6-reasons-why-you-never-need-to-win-an-argument/

1) You can never technically “win”.

2) Arguing perpetuates conflict.

3) The legal system is based on arbitration.

4) No one can argue against feelings.

5) No one can argue against needs.

6) Trying to control another person’s opinion oversteps both their boundaries and yours.
« Last Edit: 2012-12-27 07:21:35 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Empathy
« Reply #11 on: 2012-12-27 15:44:03 »
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Quote from: MoEnzyme on 2012-12-27 07:17:08   

Quote:
Winning an argument is always tempting.
Who doesn’t want to be right? Have the last word? Be the meanest and sharpest and smartest with their words?
Be victorious!
Not feeling it?
Argument is usually corrosive to healthy relationships, and here are six reasons why you never need to win one:


http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/09/24/6-reasons-why-you-never-need-to-win-an-argument/
1) You can never technically “win”.
2) Arguing perpetuates conflict.
3) The legal system is based on arbitration.
4) No one can argue against feelings.
5) No one can argue against needs.
6) Trying to control another person’s opinion oversteps both their boundaries and yours.



[Fritz]Your wrong ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y&noredirect=1
« Last Edit: 2012-12-27 15:45:16 by Fritz » Report to moderator   Logged

Where there is the necessary technical skill to move mountains, there is no need for the faith that moves mountains -anon-
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