logo Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register.
2019-12-12 12:19:42 CoV Wiki
Learn more about the Church of Virus
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Donations now taken through PayPal

  Church of Virus BBS
  General
  Church Doctrine

  The CoV Memeplex
previous next
Pages: [1] Reply Notify of replies Send the topic Print 
   Author  Topic: The CoV Memeplex  (Read 1577 times)
Kolzene
Magister
**

Gender: Male
Posts: 21
Reputation: 6.19
Rate Kolzene



I am not a llama.

View Profile WWW
The CoV Memeplex
« on: 2010-11-21 18:06:36 »
Reply with quote

Hi there, new to the site. First let me say that I find this all very fascinating, being a fan of memetics, logic, etc. While I largely agree with the three virtues and choices for the three sins, I wouldn't say that I'm ready to "sign up" quite yet. I have a lot of reading yet to do and a lot of questions to answer before this meme properly "infects" me, but from what I can gather so far that should make just help make me a good candidate, yes?

Anyway, onto my first question. I'll apologize if this isn't exactly the correct forum for it, but it's the best fit I could find so far. One of the defining characteristics of this religion is stated that it has been memetically designed. I am curious to see this design and am wondering if it was ever made available. Things like, what are its bait, hook, and threat? What are its infection and replication strategies? Etc. I've done a little looking around and haven't found it yet. I know that I could probably deduce them with my own memetic analysis once I've read enough here and on the wiki, but I'd prefer, if at all possible, to see the original design, rather than working backwards and possibly getting it wrong somehow.

Thank you for any help!
Report to moderator   Logged
David Lucifer
Archon
*****

Posts: 2631
Reputation: 8.99
Rate David Lucifer



Enlighten me.

View Profile WWW E-Mail
Re:The CoV Memeplex
« Reply #1 on: 2010-11-25 10:24:33 »
Reply with quote


Quote from: Kolzene on 2010-11-21 18:06:36   

Hi there, new to the site. First let me say that I find this all very fascinating, being a fan of memetics, logic, etc. While I largely agree with the three virtues and choices for the three sins, I wouldn't say that I'm ready to "sign up" quite yet. I have a lot of reading yet to do and a lot of questions to answer before this meme properly "infects" me, but from what I can gather so far that should make just help make me a good candidate, yes?

Yes indeed


Quote:

Anyway, onto my first question. I'll apologize if this isn't exactly the correct forum for it, but it's the best fit I could find so far. One of the defining characteristics of this religion is stated that it has been memetically designed. I am curious to see this design and am wondering if it was ever made available. Things like, what are its bait, hook, and threat? What are its infection and replication strategies? Etc. I've done a little looking around and haven't found it yet. I know that I could probably deduce them with my own memetic analysis once I've read enough here and on the wiki, but I'd prefer, if at all possible, to see the original design, rather than working backwards and possibly getting it wrong somehow.

Thank you for any help!

The design has never been explicated as such. To date it has been more of a bottom-up, organic process rather that a top-down design, though I am certainly open to trying different approaches.

Most of my efforts have gone into the meta-process called Meridion, the reputation and voting system that we use here to continuously develop the design of the CoV. For example Meridion was used most recently to illuminate our 3rd saint, St. Alan Turing.

Report to moderator   Logged
Kolzene
Magister
**

Gender: Male
Posts: 21
Reputation: 6.19
Rate Kolzene



I am not a llama.

View Profile WWW
Re:The CoV Memeplex
« Reply #2 on: 2010-11-26 17:14:19 »
Reply with quote


Quote:
The design has never been explicated as such. To date it has been more of a bottom-up, organic process rather that a top-down design, though I am certainly open to trying different approaches.

Most of my efforts have gone into the meta-process called Meridion, the reputation and voting system that we use here to continuously develop the design of the CoV. For example Meridion was used most recently to illuminate our 3rd saint, St. Alan Turing.

Ah yes, the anascopic method. I know it well, from study and experience, so I am aware of its pros and cons. It seems to me to have the best effect when one has a) very large numbers to work with (people, funds, etc.), or b) really good luck, usually a mix of the two. For example, Google devotes a portion of its employees' time to work on whatever project they want. This helps unleash their creativity and occasionally they get a really good idea out of it. But I find for smaller groups that don't have Google's resources and workforce, efficiency is the key, and that is why I have been researching the katascopic (top-down) method. If you're interested I could share with you what I've discovered so far.

Let me tell you a bit more about why I'm here. Like those here, I too am a supporter of a memeplex that challenges some strongly held traditions and beliefs of our society. But instead of dealing with the area of religion, we are attempting to bring a rational, objective, and scientific approach to the realm of economics. Naturally there has been a great deal of resistance to this point of view, which is why I have been researching things such as memetics and katascopic design, to help enhance our effectiveness.

It was that memetic research that led me here, and while I also have a personal interest in something like this, it occurs to me that given the similarities of these two projects, that they might not just be compatible, but possibly even mutually supportive. I don't know for sure since I am just starting out here, but I am excited by the possibility. Does this sound at all interesting to those in this project? If so I'd be happy to elaborate so we can look into the feasbility of such a collaboration. Let me know.
Report to moderator   Logged
Fritz
Archon
*****

Gender: Male
Posts: 1746
Reputation: 8.99
Rate Fritz





View Profile WWW E-Mail
Re:The CoV Memeplex
« Reply #3 on: 2010-11-26 17:32:52 »
Reply with quote


Quote from: Kolzene on 2010-11-26 17:14:19   


Quote:
The design has never been explicated as such. To date it has been more of a bottom-up, organic process rather that a top-down design, though I am certainly open to trying different approaches.

Most of my efforts have gone into the meta-process called Meridion, the reputation and voting system that we use here to continuously develop the design of the CoV. For example Meridion was used most recently to illuminate our 3rd saint, St. Alan Turing.

Ah yes, the anascopic method. I know it well, from study and experience, so I am aware of its pros and cons. It seems to me to have the best effect when one has a) very large numbers to work with (people, funds, etc.), or b) really good luck, usually a mix of the two. For example, Google devotes a portion of its employees' time to work on whatever project they want. This helps unleash their creativity and occasionally they get a really good idea out of it. But I find for smaller groups that don't have Google's resources and workforce, efficiency is the key, and that is why I have been researching the katascopic (top-down) method. If you're interested I could share with you what I've discovered so far.

Let me tell you a bit more about why I'm here. Like those here, I too am a supporter of a memeplex that challenges some strongly held traditions and beliefs of our society. But instead of dealing with the area of religion, we are attempting to bring a rational, objective, and scientific approach to the realm of economics. Naturally there has been a great deal of resistance to this point of view, which is why I have been researching things such as memetics and katascopic design, to help enhance our effectiveness.

It was that memetic research that led me here, and while I also have a personal interest in something like this, it occurs to me that given the similarities of these two projects, that they might not just be compatible, but possibly even mutually supportive. I don't know for sure since I am just starting out here, but I am excited by the possibility. Does this sound at all interesting to those in this project? If so I'd be happy to elaborate so we can look into the feasbility of such a collaboration. Let me know.

If Nothing else, my take on CoV is the exchange of ideas and their interaction, so I say "Bring it on!"

I sure the other voices of CoV will chime in as a chord is struck that resonates.

Cheers

Fritz
Report to moderator   Logged

Where there is the necessary technical skill to move mountains, there is no need for the faith that moves mountains -anon-
MoEnzyme
Archon
*****

Gender: Male
Posts: 2256
Reputation: 8.99
Rate MoEnzyme



infidel lab animal

View Profile WWW
Re:The CoV Memeplex
« Reply #4 on: 2010-11-26 18:54:15 »
Reply with quote


Quote from: Kolzene on 2010-11-26 17:14:19   

. . . I don't know for sure since I am just starting out here, but I am excited by the possibility. Does this sound at all interesting to those in this project? If so I'd be happy to elaborate so we can look into the feasbility of such a collaboration. Let me know.

Feel free to jump in. If you know our ethics (virtues & sins), and our saints (Hypatia, Darwin, and Turing), then you know us. For the basis of our dialog we try to keep it simple that way.
Report to moderator   Logged

I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme


(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
Kolzene
Magister
**

Gender: Male
Posts: 21
Reputation: 6.19
Rate Kolzene



I am not a llama.

View Profile WWW
Re:The CoV Memeplex
« Reply #5 on: 2010-11-28 00:44:39 »
Reply with quote

Alright, cool.   There are several things I want to say right now, so here they are. I'll try to keep them as short as I can:

1) I do know and agree with the virtues and sins, certainly, although I think that the description of "Apathy" could use some work. An issue for another time perhaps.

2) Only one post per day? Wow, that doesn't really give me much rope to hang myself with, does it? I guess that I had better join the Meridion thing so hopefully that will change soon. Until then I'm afraid I'm going to have to cram all I can into one message at a time. We can split the various topics later, if that's alright.

3) I'm not very familiar with memetic engineering. It was my research into that on the 'net that led me here. There seems to be very little information about how to do it on the Internet, but there are certainly people out there that do know how. Unfortunately they mostly seem to be co-opted by the system to help perpetuate it. So until I find more information on more specific techniques, I guess I'll just be winging it, unless anyone here knows more?

4) While I also don't have professional-level knowledge of the katascopic (top-down) method of design typically used by engineers and other project planners, my research into it has been more extensive, enough for me to have developed a working beta-version if you will that I have documented and lightly tested. Since I have only this one post today, I will only give a brief introduction to the idea that I can expand upon more later. If anyone else knows more about this kind of thing, I am happy to learn what you know if you are willing.

Basically, the process goes like this: The first step is to define your goal. In the case of the CoV (taken from the Wiki), that would likely be: "To compete with the traditional (irrational) religions in the human ideosphere with the idea that it would introduce and propagate memes which would ensure the survival and evolution of our species." The next step is to create "requirements" for this goal, starting in the most general sense. These might be, for example: A) The new memeplex must ensure the survival of human beings, B) The new memeplex must ensure the evolution of our species, C) The new memeplex must supplant other memeplex's that are inferior in accomplishing both A and B. There may be more at this level, but this is what I can take quickly from the Goal. Then, you treat each of those requirements as a new "goal", and make requirements for them. Some examples might be: A1: The new memeplex must not be autotoxic, A2: the new memeplex must not be exotoxic, A3: the new memeplex must anticipate all threats to human survival both on a individual level, and as a species, etc. The process continues making more sub-requirements for each requirement in greater detail in an iterative fashion. Mapped out graphically, this would look like a tree branching down (typically; could be any direction you like really) from the Goal.

The process can get quite big, depending on the size of the project, and even tedious. However the end results are great. If done properly, what you end up with is essentially a list of tasks to be taken up by anyone qualified to do so, a step-by-step guide to achieving the goal. It makes it easy for anyone to jump in and help out during the operational phase, encouraging participation. It also provides a standardized way of doing things, making them easier to learn and more internally consistent. It also creates a record of how to achieve the goal, so that in the event of lowered participation, valuable knowledge is not lost by the loss of members. In fact, the entire thing could be abandoned in theory, and then restarted by someone completely new, without having to do so completely from scratch. This helps the survivability of the meme.

There's more to it than that of course, including types of requirements, but we can get into that later. This process can be done entirely authoritarian-style, with a select group in sole control of the katascopic plan, or it can be combined with an anascopic element, allowing members to monitor and improve the plan, like an open-source project (like this one). Properly done, it can combine the best attributes of both katascopic and anascopic design methodology.

5) Regarding the two project collaboration: As I mentioned before, I am a proponent of a memeplex designed to bring a rational, objective, and scientific approach to the field of economics. This idea is called Technocracy. It was designed in response to a strictly objective and scientific analysis of the economy of North America (as was its focus at the time), dealing with measurable things like energy production and consumption, units of production, etc., instead of the usual economic vagueries like "value" and "price". The result was a design for use in an area capable of post-scarcity production, like North America, and with it most of the current social problems like economic instability, pollution, poverty, and more, are gone, or at least significantly reduced. Again, I won't go into great detail here in this one post, but I will later if there is interest, and of course there is the webpage that I linked to. I recommend starting with the Technocracy for Beginners page.

The reason I came here, aside from personal interest, is because having been involved with Technocracy for over 10 years, I have seen how difficult it is for people to contribute to the movement. This is not unlike the problems faced by open-source programmers in that the more time they spend on their own projects, the less time they can spend on making a profit and thus improving their lives. There are a number of strong social pressures that prevent greater participation in the movement, despite interest, and I have been looking for a solution to this problem. It occurred to me when looking at all the effort that some religious people put in the the propagation of their memes that perhaps what is needed is a "lifestyle" element to the memeplex, one that encourages simpler, easier behaviours that strengthen one's resolve for the harder tasks, and perhaps even impart the kind of mental discipline in things like logic, skepticism and science that a Technocrat (or really, any human being) should have. While I was not looking for (or to create) a religion per se, I think that it is possible that something like that could fill that requirement. Thus, a religion such as the CoV who's values are congruent with Technocracy may help strengthen the advocacy of the movement.

Conversely, Technocracy may be able to help this religion as well. One possibility is by helping people looking at the religion to be able to envision what a rational, scientific society might look like. Having something like this to look forward to, and work toward may help the propagation of this memeplex. Also, should it ever be established, the kind of environment that a Technocratic society could provide would make it far easier for people to see the benefits of such a world-view.

Anyway, that's probably enough for now. If you have any questions I am certainly happy to answer them, about anything I've said here.

6) Should I start getting actively involved in this community, the areas I could help with could include 1) helping any coordination between the CoV and Technocracy projects, 2) helping build the CoV katascopic plan, 3) helping with the Virus memeplex, 4) writing for the wiki (I do a lot of writing, technical and otherwise). I would also be interested in learning more about Meridion to see if something like that might be useful to the Technocracy movement.
Report to moderator   Logged
MoEnzyme
Archon
*****

Gender: Male
Posts: 2256
Reputation: 8.99
Rate MoEnzyme



infidel lab animal

View Profile WWW
Re:The CoV Memeplex
« Reply #6 on: 2010-11-29 09:42:44 »
Reply with quote

I'm somewhat familiar with Technocracy. I wouldn't go so far as to say I really understand it, but I did check out your site. I liked the chart below for explaining the transition to a post-scarcity economy.

http://www.technocracy.ca/tiki-index.php?page=IB28
 three_curb_chart.jpg
« Last Edit: 2010-11-29 09:43:40 by MoEnzyme »
Report to moderator   Logged

I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme


(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)

MoEnzyme
Archon
*****

Gender: Male
Posts: 2256
Reputation: 8.99
Rate MoEnzyme



infidel lab animal

View Profile WWW
Re:The CoV Memeplex
« Reply #7 on: 2010-11-29 09:50:31 »
Reply with quote

I invite Kolzene to start a Technocracy Topic. "The CoV Memeplex" Subject line while appropriate for inquiry about CoV, doesn't serve as much reference for Technocracy.
Report to moderator   Logged

I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme


(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
MoEnzyme
Archon
*****

Gender: Male
Posts: 2256
Reputation: 8.99
Rate MoEnzyme



infidel lab animal

View Profile WWW
Re:The CoV Memeplex
« Reply #8 on: 2010-11-29 12:17:07 »
Reply with quote

A few of my thoughts on the CoV memeplex itself. From our wiki quoted by Kolzene re: our "goals":

Quote:
"To compete with the traditional (irrational) religions in the human ideosphere with the idea that it would introduce and propagate memes which would ensure the survival and evolution of our species." The next step is to create "requirements" for this goal, starting in the most general sense. These might be, for example: A) The new memeplex must ensure the survival of human beings, B) The new memeplex must ensure the evolution of our species, C) The new memeplex must supplant other memeplex's that are inferior in accomplishing both A and B.

In the past, and it seems currently as well, I criticize idea of "competing" and "supplanting" traditional religious memes. Of course all ideas ultimately compete for memespace to survive, however not all traditional ideas need discarding in order for our ethics and saints to take a cultural root. I think perhaps the advantage we can claim for the CoV memeplex is in its simplicity, and its lack of dogmatism. Other than the basic doctrine, we have no explicit rules, and that doctrine only offers a list of people and concepts from which one may draw out values and rules in an ad hoc fashion. Due to this ad hoc nature I hesitate to call ours a "religion", and consider it more of a spiritual program. Our concerns are more ethical than moral, and since ethics trump morality I would hesitate to characterize ourselves as being in direct competition with traditional moralities.

The few times I've actually conversed with other people "In Real Life" about the Church of Virus, I've generally framed the conversation in terms of the ethics. I offer no acceptance to any proposition except to whatever degree it appeals to reason, empathy, and vision, and to whatever extent it avoids hypocrisy, apathy, and dogmatism. No other claims of authority count for anything with me. Once I've made that much clear, the rest of the conversation tends to proceed more constructively if at all. The more purely atheistic (anti-religious) approach seems to operate more as a skeptical ambush where little to nothing is asserted as a positive foundation for dialog and the claims of the religious are generally shot down as they are proposed. It's certainly a fun game for scorekeepers, but very little happens in the way of persuasion.

So rather than pre-emptively declaring CoV ethics "in competition with" or "supplanting" traditional morality, I'd rather give individual traditionalists an opportunity to frame their ideas in terms our ethical language before immediately assuming their incompatibility. Yes, we will end up in competition with something at the end of the day if we are doing a good memetic job, but we need not compete against more things than actually necessary, and where some ideas can be converted to our own ethical uses I'd not be foreclosing such possibilities. In our own wiki, I'd tend to favor more language of "subversion". Perhaps I may propose some edits in that direction depending on others' feedback.
Report to moderator   Logged

I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme


(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
Kolzene
Magister
**

Gender: Male
Posts: 21
Reputation: 6.19
Rate Kolzene



I am not a llama.

View Profile WWW
Re:The CoV Memeplex
« Reply #9 on: 2010-11-30 00:24:38 »
Reply with quote


Quote:
I'm somewhat familiar with Technocracy. I wouldn't go so far as to say I really understand it, but I did check out your site. I liked the chart below for explaining the transition to a post-scarcity economy.

I'm glad it helped. It does take a while for anyone to really understand Technocracy; partly because it is a big topic, but also it is very different from what most people are used to. My understanding of it evolved over many years, and many things I had to figure out myself because so much of the "official" material is so old. That is why it is one of my main interests as a writer to try is to make it easier to understand, which is why I put up the site and wrote so many articles, and the FAQ.


Quote:
I invite Kolzene to start a Technocracy Topic. "The CoV Memeplex" Subject line while appropriate for inquiry about CoV, doesn't serve as much reference for Technocracy.

Of course. I guess I was just too impatient excited to wait to write all that down.


Quote:
A few of my thoughts on the CoV memeplex itself.

I think I see what you mean, and you raise some good points there. Since this process works with open source, anyone can certainly help hash out exactly what the goal is, or should be worded, as well as the requirements. I just gave a quick starting point to show how it is done. Is there a specific place where a project like this would best be located? Or is a thread in the forums good enough? Maybe start with something like "Defining the goal of CoV". Or does this exist already somewhere? And is there any interest in doing something like this?
Report to moderator   Logged
Pages: [1] Reply Notify of replies Send the topic Print 
Jump to:


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Church of Virus BBS | Powered by YaBB SE
© 2001-2002, YaBB SE Dev Team. All Rights Reserved.

Please support the CoV.
Valid HTML 4.01! Valid CSS! RSS feed