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   Author  Topic: exploring religious thinking  (Read 5302 times)
Stringy
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Re:exploring religious thinking
« Reply #15 on: 2007-12-11 22:25:03 »
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Thank you Blunderov for your kind words and welcome. To be appreciated for thoughtfulness can be a rare in my life. Many of my rl companions are subscribers to magical thinking, which I too often find tiresome. I suspect that the believers far outnumber the skeptics. Which is why I think that an artificial God could perhaps be beneficial to the 6+ billion bipedal carbon units I identify with species-ally. To quote an unwise pop song, "sweet dreams are made of these, who am I to disagree...everybody's looking for something." To the extent that a religious meme-complex (I hope I'm using that term correctly) inspires ethical behavior, comforts the troubled, builds community, I support it.

I'm taking a devil's advocate role. Personally, I'd love to see an end to magical thinking (though not awe and wonder at the beauty of it all) and an adherence to rationality. But that's as much a fantasy as believing in the rapture. The diversity of events in this experience of being human, the human condition, exceeds the capacity of the rational mind to come to terms. Faith may be an opiate, but sometimes the pain requires numbing.

Yes the world would be different if religion ceased to exist; it would have to be a different world for the cessation to occur. The point I make (simply for argument's sake) is that it wouldn't be a better place. Religion is not the cause, but a symptom. Desire is the cause. Qualified more, misguided desire is the cause. Quality is the goal. Rationality is a means, but by no means is it a cure-all. The nature of reality is too diverse. Sometimes faith serves.

"Religion, IMV, does an immense disservice to humanity by enabling, and enobling, faulty thinking processes. It elevates rationalisation to a sublime art and it makes dissembling a virtue."

Yes, that is a supportable and valid view, but  not encompassing. Religion has also done service to humanity. Sometimes, rationalization is the best that can be managed, and comfort can be noble. The easing of fear, even if irrationally based, is still the easing of fear. "Fear is the mind killer."

I've gone on quite enough, but still must address intrinsic value. Oxygen has intrinsic value, you can breathe it. Water has intrinsic value, you can drink it and wash with it. Food has intrinsic value, you can eat it. Fuel has intrinsic value, you can stay warm, cook food to kill bacteria. Money, in and of itself has no intrinsic value (I suppose if you had enough you could burn it). It is purely artificial. Your assertion refers to subjectivity, and from that (valid) view, all value is assigned. I truly believe there is Actuality, a reality that exists with or without being perceived. But being a perceiving being, all reality is subjected to my perception.

And finally (finally with the finally), knowing the unknowable for what it is: it's unknowable. 

"What does that mean?"

Very little, actually, if you seek a rational explanation.
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I'm neither a scientist nor a scholar. I'm, primarily, an entertainer. That does not invalidate my ideas...but it does make them suspect.
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Re:exploring religious thinking
« Reply #16 on: 2007-12-12 10:14:01 »
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Hello Stringy and welcome to our forums.

A hint, honesty is more helpful to yourself, to others and will earn you a lot more respect than "playing the devils advocate." The suggestions you make about religion are not new. All have been repeatedly and painfully dissected - at great length - on these forums over the years. Reading in our archives may be beneficial here. The majority of active posters on the CoV forums are not ignorant of the possible arguments in favor of irrational religions, indeed, they probably know the possible arguments better than most believers, but also recognize that the acceptance of make-believe for reality is largely incompatible with the Virian Virtues and tends to lead directly to the Virian Sins.

You may find recourse to the FAQ area as well as the wiki helpful.

Ultimately, if you seek inspiration outside of yourself, I think that by and large you will fail. Because the meaning in life seems to be no more - or less - than the meaning we ascribe to it. You will discover should you read Church of Virus BBS, General, Philosophy & Religion, Virian Ethics: The End of God Referenced Ethics, Hermit,  2002-03-06 (and Church of Virus BBS, General, Philosophy & Religion, Virian Ethics: The Soul in the Machine and the Question of Virian Ethics. may be helpful in contextualizing this) that irrational religion cannot "inspire ethical behavior" , the appended Mark Twain story, "The Story of the Widow's Son" throws doubt upon the idea that irrational religion "comforts the troubled", and we learn from history that it is secularism that "builds community" rather than religion - unless by "community" you mean a group of people all containing the exact same hue of blue mud in their navels and prone to violent attacks on those with other hues. The latter being a  fact which explains to a large extent the history of the USA - which in turn explains why, of all the industrialized world, it is only the retrogressive USA that still clews in any significant measure to fantastical myths about impossible creatures as having relevance in peoples' lives. And even in that sick society, the assertions of belief are made suspect by the facts of church attendance.

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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
Stringy
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Re:exploring religious thinking
« Reply #17 on: 2007-12-12 14:19:53 »
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“Hello Stringy and welcome to our forums.”

Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here: interesting minds with articulation skills.

“A hint, honesty is more helpful to yourself, to others and will earn you a lot more respect than ‘playing the devils advocate.’"

Point taken, though I doubt I was being dishonest. That phrase was meant in part to be a pun, playing the “Devil’s” advocate speaking in defense of “God.”

“The suggestions you make about religion are not new. All have been repeatedly and painfully dissected - at great length - on these forums over the years.”

And what, pray tell (tongue in cheek) is new? As a newbie, I’m likely to post sophomorically. I have read many pages of the CoV site once. Forgive me if I’m unable to assimilate the information rapidly enough to extend the knowledge base here. I hope you’re not like one of those professors (I’m on staff at a community college) who resent teaching remedial level courses and have disdain for those students. How are the underprepared, the ignorant, the damaged, to be brought into the folds of the Church of Reason? I do sympathize with the English and Speech teachers who must endure yet another poorly constructed piece about why paint ball guns aren’t dangerous or why recycling is so very important. Most have banned abortion as a topic. I do appreciate you taking time to provide me positive suggestions. I’m starved for meaningful communication.

I do understand it is tiresome to read ideas articulated ad nauseam. After 9+ years here, I suspect you’ve heard it all. A respectful request: if a point has been well articulated by one of the “majority of active posters on the CoV forums” who “probably know the possible arguments better than most believers,” post me a link to that particular forum topic. Perhaps it’s me being lazy, but I find it difficult to search through so many pages of posts to find the gems. Is there a “greatest hits” of the forums somewhere?

I will commit to rereading the CoV pages.

“the acceptance of make-believe for reality is largely incompatible with the Virian Virtues and tends to lead directly to the Virian Sins.”

And so must be rejected when adhering to virtue and avoiding sin is your goal. If your life is such that these pursuits are exclusive, well done.

“You may find recourse to the FAQ area as well as the wiki helpful.”

I will start my reading there.

“Ultimately, if you seek inspiration outside of yourself, I think that by and large you will fail.
Because the meaning in life seems to be no more - or less - than the meaning we ascribe to it.”

Is this existential view truly supportable by rationality, reason, and logic? I suppose I will know more when I’ve finished your suggested reading list.

“…irrational religion cannot ‘inspire ethical behavior’"

I disagree, based on personal observation.

“…unless by "community" you mean a group of people all containing the exact same hue of blue mud in their navels and prone to violent attacks on those with other hues.”

I believe you speak of the real and dangerous politically motivated wing(nuts) of the imaginary solutions institutions. The positive work of church is not in the headlines, or even much in the public eye. Easing fear on the deathbed with stories of a better place does no harm to reason and rationality. Imaginary solutions are perfectly understandable when there is no solution.

“it is only the retrogressive USA that still clews in any significant measure to fantastical myths about impossible creatures as having relevance in peoples' lives.”

Perpetuated in part I believe by the fanatical priests and members of the church of money to keep the sheep bleating slogans of “all men are created equal, but some are more equal than others” to maintain the inequity of wealth and resources.

But I’m sure that’s been said before as well.

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Stringy.
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I'm neither a scientist nor a scholar. I'm, primarily, an entertainer. That does not invalidate my ideas...but it does make them suspect.
ADRIANMAHDI
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Re:exploring religious thinking
« Reply #18 on: 2008-08-18 10:12:13 »
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MoEnzyme
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Re:exploring religious thinking
« Reply #19 on: 2008-08-18 12:53:36 »
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme


(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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Re:exploring religious thinking
« Reply #20 on: 2008-08-18 22:35:22 »
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Quote:
[ADRIANMAHDI]Are there any members among you who are of the Masonic Order?

Master Mason with the Merricksville #55 Lodge (AF&AM) in Ontario, Canada 17 years.

Cheers

Fritz


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Where there is the necessary technical skill to move mountains, there is no need for the faith that moves mountains -anon-
MoEnzyme
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Re:exploring religious thinking
« Reply #21 on: 2008-09-05 22:45:24 »
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme


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Fritz
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Re:exploring religious thinking
« Reply #22 on: 2008-09-06 00:46:18 »
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Quote:
Reply #21 on: Today at 20:45:24 [Mo Enzyme]<snip>My Virian thoughts about the Masonic Order. I find it very interesting.<snip>

I agree with your thoughts having seen and experienced the same.

I would add that my journey through masonry to date (albeit less complete then you Mo) and especially my initial degrees were extremely visceral and emotionally provocative; very unscientific yet not in the least religious but still unsettling to me. The novel from Aldus Huxley “Doors of Perception Heaven and Hell” a book I had read in my self indulgent youth, resurfaced in my mind and I reread it. (I would highly recommend it as mandatory reading for anyone wishing to contextualize social and spiritual emotions). My emotional reactions the “deja vue” the I know this, been there done this feelings; a relevance and context for Masonry began to present it self to me.

The degree to which Free Masonry is inculcated into day to day life in symbolism, in law, in everyday language and in tribal rituals left me astounded in its self, but even more, how much more encompassing it was to me then Christendom, which has a rather heavy hand in most of our existence.

The History that seems to just keeps going back in time, the interleaving with; the battle fields of war, to small town commerce, helping local kids with scholarships and all the way up to the Shrine.

Our lodge night still syncs somewhat with the full moon because when it was chosen it used to make getting to lodge and home with horse and buggy through the woods and fields do able at night.

For me it still holds a solid reminder that a moral compass does exist and we must be on the level with whom ever we touch.

And not least, a place to go that still knows a good Scotch Whiskey and that it needs to be shared.

Cheers

Fritz


PS:Stumbled across this site and found it interesting, not the least the historical take.
THE GRAND PRIORY OF THE KNIGHTS TEMPLAR IN SCOTLAND
.
 animatedmason.gif
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Where there is the necessary technical skill to move mountains, there is no need for the faith that moves mountains -anon-
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