Re:Howard Bloom on the Boston bombings
« Reply #1 on: 2013-05-16 00:54:23 »
Having wrestled just to hear what Bloom had to say (due to the the pathetic sound levels), I would suggest that if he had anything to say worth listening to that he needs to use a compressor to make his recordings audible, but he doesn't, so technical improvements would simply result in a further waste of time
Contra this bigoted diatribe's implications, that Islam is somehow special or worse than other religions; the assertions at 3:28 and following regarding Islam apply just as well, perhaps even better, to Judaic and Christian terrorists - for example to Irgun or the "Philadelphia Bible Riots", let alone the crusaders. When it comes to the Abrahamic religions, it doesn't matter whether the prophet was Moses, Jesus or Mohammed, the message remains, "Kill them all, god will know his own."
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
Having wrestled just to hear what Bloom had to say (due to the the pathetic sound levels), I would suggest that if he had anything to say worth listening to that he needs to use a compressor to make his recordings audible, but he doesn't, so technical improvements would simply result in a further waste of time
Contra this bigoted diatribe's implications, that Islam is somehow special or worse than other religions; the assertions at 3:28 and following regarding Islam apply just as well, perhaps even better, to Judaic and Christian terrorists - for example to Irgun or the , let alone the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade"]crusaders. When it comes to the Abrahamic religions, it doesn't matter whether the prophet was Moses, Jesus or Mohammed, the message remains, "Kill them all, god will know his own."
Hermit,
I somehow failed to draw the implication that he was comparing religions. I only heard him talk about Islam. Setting aside your belief that he implied some comparison to other religions, do you take issue with his assertions about Islam? And why would it be bigoted to point these things out?
While I don't find this implied comparison you made, I'll entertain it. While we can't say the same for Moses and Mohammed, Jesus didn't actually kill anyone. I personally have my doubts that the historical Jesus depicted in the gospels actually existed. Outside of the religious text there is scant independent historical verification of his life. Killing lots of people tends to get a person noticed, so perhaps if Jesus actually existed that might help explain why he didn't make much of a splash during his life outside of his community. I offer none of that as any real defense of Christianity. Christians have certainly killed plenty of people for religious reasons, however there's not really any way that they can justify this as following the example of their alleged prophet. Since you explicitly made up these comparisons yourself, I cannot agree with the false equivalency of these different prophets.
Re:Howard Bloom on the Boston bombings
« Reply #3 on: 2013-05-16 10:01:14 »
I didn't assert that Bloom made a comparison, I said that the comparison is unavoidably implied when Bloom imputes that one of the three primary branches of Abrahamic religion inspires bloodshed - and elides the fact that the other branches have historically had a far more extensive influence with a much worse outcome for many more people.
It is totally fair to say that Jesus of Christianity is as mythical as Zeus. There is no pre-5th century material relating to his existence, only alleged copies of supposed material relating to nebulous prototypes of arguable authenticity. Of course, this is even more the case for Abraham and Moses, particularly given that there is zero evidence for the Israelites ever having been in Egypt, except in so far as being insignificant defeated nomadic hill tribes living in the Palestine region prior to the time of the Merneptah Stele.
Having said that, there is the bloodstained evidence of the foundation of all of these religious groups, their writings, and the archaeological proof of widespread child sacrifice in Israel until at least the second century BCE (as the babble says (Judges 11), archaeology supports and religites attempt to explain away, "this was a custom in Israel") which confounds any honest attempt to lessen the Abrahamic religions' bellicose and bloodthirsty origins. From the many alleged acts of genocide by the Israelis, including their gods' personal involvement (e.g. Joshua 10), through to Jesus' alleged destruction of somebody else's olive tree in a fit of pique (Mark 11) all the way to the demand, honoured for so long as it could be by the church, to achieve what Jesus' demanded, "those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me" (Luke 19). Rooted in UTism, all of the Abrahamic religions are steeped in blood and responsible for centuries of murder. Singling out the branch historically least responsible for persecution and murder for "special treatment", through making the claims that Islam alone possesses the attributes asserted at 3:28 and following is completely invalid and blatant bigotry.
Now if he'd said, to the trashbin of history with all of them, he'd have had no argument from me. But he didn't, so I did and do.
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
Re:Howard Bloom on the Boston bombings
« Reply #4 on: 2013-05-16 16:11:27 »
Fair enough, however the video addressed the Boston Marathon bombing carried out by a Muslim team. I therefore don't find it bigoted to single out that faction for critical treatment in this case. Furthermore, between the characters Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed, Mohammed is the one who most likely actually existed as a real historical person, perhaps making it easier for his followers to use him as their personal example for committing homicide.
I didn't assert that Bloom made a comparison, I said that the comparison is unavoidably implied when Bloom imputes that one of the three primary branches of Abrahamic religion inspires bloodshed - and elides the fact that the other branches have historically had a far more extensive influence with a much worse outcome for many more people.
It is totally fair to say that Jesus of Christianity is as mythical as Zeus. There is no pre-5th century material relating to his existence, only alleged copies of supposed material relating to nebulous prototypes of arguable authenticity. Of course, this is even more the case for Abraham and Moses, particularly given that there is zero evidence for the Israelites ever having been in Egypt, except in so far as being insignificant defeated nomadic hill tribes living in the Palestine region prior to the time of the Merneptah Stele.
Having said that, there is the bloodstained evidence of the foundation of all of these religious groups, their writings, and the archaeological proof of widespread child sacrifice in Israel until at least the second century BCE (as the babble says (Judges 11), archaeology supports and religites attempt to explain away, "this was a custom in Israel") which confounds any honest attempt to lesson the Abrahamic religions' bellicose and bloodthirsty origins. From the many alleged acts of genocide by the Israelis, including their gods' personal involvement (e.g. Joshua 10), through to Jesus' alleged destruction of somebody else's olive tree in a fit of pique (Mark 11) all the way to the demand, honoured for so long as it could be by the church, to achieve what Jesus' demanded, "those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me" (Luke 19). Rooted in UTism, all of the Abrahamic religions are steeped in blood and responsible for centuries of murder. Singling out the branch historically least responsible for persecution and murder for "special treatment", through making the claims that Islam alone possesses the attributes asserted at 3:28 and following is completely invalid and blatant bigotry.
Now if he'd said, to the trashbin of history with all of them, he'd have had no argument from me. But he didn't, so I did and do.
Re:Howard Bloom on the Boston bombings
« Reply #5 on: 2013-05-17 03:03:04 »
The bombers didn't "do it for Mo", they have stated explicitly that their action was inspired by and a response to the USA's decade long industrial scale murder of Muslims (Refer e.g. HufPuf).
Given that 911 was a response to the USA's half century of reflexive support for Israel, and the stationing of US troops in Islamic countries, that the USA has murdered between 1990 and 3308 in Pakistan alone since 2004 (the vast majority under Obama, see e.g. http://rt.com/news/drones-us-al-qaeda-militants-649/), and that there are some 2.6 to 4.7 Muslims in the USA, the bloodshed could continue for a very long time.
The speculation as to whether having a a "real" founder leads to more or less thuggish behaviour by religites might be better answered by the better documented and bloody history of the Lutherans and Mormons compared with, e.g. adherents of Sufi and Bahai - only that might be perceived as turning your putative argument on its head...
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
Re:Howard Bloom on the Boston bombings
« Reply #6 on: 2013-05-17 10:49:32 »
Seems to me the idea that teaching religion should be considered child abuse, has manifested it self as a truism with these lads. I really am unable to discern any difference among the Christian sects. Be it Islam, Catholicism, Protestants(and all its flavours), and Judaism. Monotheism brain washes the young to accept; "One loud mouth with might makes Right" co-opting the reactive brain for responses rather then using measured and analytical part of our potential mind set.
I suspect when you combine the childhood brain washing with the western advertisers brainwashing 'to not think and buy motivation', we might well end up with more sociopathic behaviour as well.
When I collapse the timelines of history I see no difference in the monotheistic religions.
But I do not see western governments accepting their influence in fostering and nurturing through their aggression; the current round of Christian based aggression called Islamic Terrorism.
Until Humanity stops the childhood brain washing of belief and teaches the scientific method we are doomed as a species to belief based killing. But then with critical thinking in play; Who would buy the vast majority of consumer products or elect the 'Self Lubricating Uncaring Tyrants' ?
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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