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MoEnzyme
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Re:Mumbai
« Reply #15 on: 2008-12-01 13:20:03 »
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2008-12-01 11:59:23   
well..we have an election coming up(next year..2009)...the right wing hindu party(crap..i didnt think i'd say that combination of words in my lifetime) is trying to scramble back.

but here is the deal..work backwards. who gains most from the mumbai attacks and what is likely to happen in the near future...other than the most obvious, i.e. tension between india and pakistan. pakistani politicians arent stupid. we have been having show downs for 6 decades now and they have never tried anything like this. why now? why mumbai? why so blatant an attack? and esp...how could they afford this? why make britain, america and israel feel vulnerable now by specifically targetting them? having said that...consider this..how many brits, americans and israelis were killed in the attacks..the final figure is almost 200. and for a hostage situation, wasnt the strategy all wrong? if the idea is to negotiate, why have series of attacks all over the city, thinning the forces? who'd be negotiating after there has already been loss of life? why negotiate with the indian govt for foreign 'hostages' after killing indians and going on a rampage? was there even any kind of communication or demands? nothing. nada. what kind of 'hostage crisis' were they planning to cook up..and if they really werent..why the show of making britains, americans and israelis feel like they are victims too in this particular set of attacks. this, among many other details, screams 'false flag' to me.


All the news I'm hearing says that this plan hatched out of Pakistan. Although the government there may have been blissfully ignorant of this particular plan, they can't have been terribly surprised that their Madrassa culture was cooking up something like this, and whenever the critical mass of hot-headed male youngsters is achieved . . . well their Muslim masters have to do something before they move on to some other criminal activity (which would only hit Pakistanis at home) or lose interest completely and decide that the domestication of civilization is worth it. As for affording it, it seems that the cost was simply the value of several dozen pent-up male Pakastani youth. In actuarial terms I'm sure that may not be as big a cost as you might imagine. Plus the cost of training and equipping them, but then it seems that's globally known to be in great supply in Pakistan. I'm sure there were some inefficient and nonsensical decisions made by the youngsters they sent, but I'm still not feeling convinced that this adds up to a false-flag operation.

Seriously though, I'm making these judgements at a distance. I know that Mermaid is far more familiar with the actual lay of the cultural and political landscape over there. So I'm continuing to ask, is there some real conspiracy at work to make it seem this way to me (and likely the rest of the spectating world at this point), or is this really as simple as a bunch of youngsters out of Pakistan hopped up on testosterone, religion, and nationalism? Of course they specifically asked for Americans and Brits (and with specific Jewish/Israeli targets already chosen), but it seems that most of their victims were Indian whether Hindu or Muslim. I'm sure that we (me being of the American contingent of the unholy trinity) were just the scapegoat/stigma to give their otherwise horrifically unconscionable acts an aura of justice so they could procede in their already-planned butchery. If this is really a false-flag operation (ie something other than I've described above), I'm still feeling the need to have some confirmation however thin or speculative on who would be flying the false flag and why? While I'm sure political Hindu nationalists coincidentally benefit, how would they actually pull this off or meaningfully contribute beyond simply inspiring the savage ire of these Pak/AlQeda testosterone infants?
« Last Edit: 2008-12-01 13:40:27 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Mumbai
« Reply #16 on: 2008-12-02 11:18:24 »
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Some group planned it (it didn't take much planning) and implemented it (and it seems to have been badly implemented). Strategically it changed nothing, although the economy of Mumbai is likely to suffer. What it will achieve is additional tensions in India and Pakistan, a swing further into Fascism (irrespective of party) and extremism (irrespective of religion), and the purchase of more weapons. As the trend for all three has been in that direction anyway, I think that any impact is likely to be minimal.

That said, I don't see it as a "false flag" operation, indeed, I don't see it as any kind of "flag" operation. I see it as some bunch of criminals on a mission from their gods or masters. If others can view it the same way, perhaps Southern Asia can avoid following the USA into a panicked over-reaction, but it seems less likely than ever. Consider that India, Bangladesh and Pakistan's rapidly growing populations, crashing water supplies and declining food production almost certainly mean really nasty resource wars in the near future (measured in years, not decades I think). When that happens a little unpleasantness, such as this in Mumbai, irrespective of the source, is going to be forgotten. Just as 9/11 really wasn't significant on any geopolitical scale, except that some of the minds viewing it were incredibly small and frightened and easily stampeded into massive stupidities, but those massive stupidities have resulted in dwarfing 9/11 in the minds of everyone but the most delusional.

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Re:Mumbai
« Reply #17 on: 2008-12-02 15:36:20 »
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Re:Mumbai
« Reply #18 on: 2008-12-03 03:02:08 »
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Hermit: "I see it as some bunch of criminals on a mission from their gods or masters. If others can view it the same way, perhaps Southern Asia can avoid following the USA into a panicked over-reaction, but it seems less likely than ever."

Hermit,

From one spectator to another I think yours is a rather astute observation. Mostly I think the common thread between 9/11 and Mumbai . . . aside from Islamist terrorism . . . was that they (the terrorists) surprised the world more than usual. Long before 9/11, Laurie Anderson - an American performance artist I respect - said that at the end of times terrorists would be the last artists because they will still know how to surprise people. I don't think she would have made that comment today, however it remains as true or even more so now. Mostly it seems that the authorities in Mumbai having some vague warnings of an attack expected and prepared for the usual suicide stealth bombers. Little did they know the surplus testosterone-intoxicated human resources the Pak/Al-Queda masters had at their disposal.

When you least expect it, the terrorists make a full frontal attack just to throw you off. And until it was too late, somehow we never fully appreciated the carnage possible from a combination of airliners and super-skyscrapers, and how dangerous an unlocked cockpit door can be. I guess it shows that even idiots with a lot of time on their hands can surprise other people trying to actually live a meaningful life. Perhaps if we could have simply viewed 9/11 as a reminder to lock the cockpit door instead of a religious call to invade Muslim countries the world would be a better place today. Maybe this is an opportunity for SOMEONE (other than the US) to finally get it right.

-Mo (giving optimism a chance)

PS. I've always known that Islamic martyrs were crazy, firstly because they were hoping for a thousand virgins in heaven. A man with any sense knows that a thousand sluts would be much more fun.

Quote from: Hermit on 2008-12-02 11:18:24   
Some group planned it (it didn't take much planning) and implemented it (and it seems to have been badly implemented). Strategically it changed nothing, although the economy of Mumbai is likely to suffer. What it will achieve is additional tensions in India and Pakistan, a swing further into Fascism (irrespective of party) and extremism (irrespective of religion), and the purchase of more weapons. As the trend for all three has been in that direction anyway, I think that any impact is likely to be minimal.

That said, I don't see it as a "false flag" operation, indeed, I don't see it as any kind of "flag" operation. I see it as some bunch of criminals on a mission from their gods or masters. If others can view it the same way, perhaps Southern Asia can avoid following the USA into a panicked over-reaction, but it seems less likely than ever. Consider that India, Bangladesh and Pakistan's rapidly growing populations, crashing water supplies and declining food production almost certainly mean really nasty resource wars in the near future (measured in years, not decades I think). When that happens a little unpleasantness, such as this in Mumbai, irrespective of the source, is going to be forgotten. Just as 9/11 really wasn't significant on any geopolitical scale, except that some of the minds viewing it were incredibly small and frightened and easily stampeded into massive stupidities, but those massive stupidities have resulted in dwarfing 9/11 in the minds of everyone but the most delusional.

Kindest Regards

Hermit
« Last Edit: 2008-12-03 04:03:52 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Mumbai
« Reply #19 on: 2008-12-03 12:26:39 »
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[letheomaniac] I'm with the false flag crowd. The whole thing stinks. Very convenient that there is a 'lone surviving terrorist' IMHO. Lone gunman eh? Heard that one before...

http://www.counterpunch.com/khan12022008.html

Is Pakistan to Blame?
Mumbai Terror Attacks

By AYESHA IJAZ KHAN

Watch Indian television and Pakistan is decidedly the culprit of the atrocious 26/11 attacks in Mumbai.  Star News projects cartoon images of Muslim terrorists receiving training in Pakistan.  Since 9/11 Bollywood has been successfully perpetuating the image of Muslims as terror-mongers and Star News clips reinforce the stereotype.  Other channels, such as NDTV, however, are less jingoistic and their very balanced Group Editor, Barkha Dutt, is doing her best to assuage knee-jerk reactions against both Muslims within India (about 14% of India’s population) and calls for war on Pakistan.  But even on her show, guest panellist Simi Garewal, who is a media personality in her own right and hosts a talk show that has previously enjoyed popularity in Pakistan, sounds worse than Donald Rumsfeld when she says, “We need to carpet bomb Pakistan.  Shock and awe.  That is why America has not had an attack since 2001.  That is what we need to do.”

Pakistani television channels, initially sympathetic, soon turned reactionary and hostile.  Some of the more hawkish anchors are telecasting scenes from the Gujarat massacre of Muslims in 2002, when thousands were killed in communal violence.  But other, more balanced anchors are asking more relevant questions.  Given the evidence that we have thus far, is Pakistan really to blame?

The fact that the Indian government is accusing Pakistan is taken with a grain of salt as this is not the first time the Indian government has blamed Pakistan, only to find later that Pakistan had nothing to do with the violence it was being accused of.  Interestingly, four times previously the Indian government falsely accused Lashkare Taiba directly as the organization sponsoring violent incidents in India, and Pakistan indirectly for harbouring the militant group, although Pakistan officially banned the outfit in 2002.

In each of the incidents, namely, the Chattisinghpura massacre, the attack on the Indian Parliament on 13 December 2001, the Malagaon blasts and the Samjhota Express incident, investigations were either refused or revealed that neither Lashkare Taiba nor Pakistan but groups from within India were responsible.
  In the Chattisinghpura incident, for example, on 20 March 2000, one day before President Bill Clinton was due to arrive in India, 35 Sikhs were killed in the village of Chattisinghpura.  It was said that about 15 uniformed men belonging to Lashkare Taiba and trained in Pakistan were responsible.  Five days later, five men were killed by paramilitary forces in a village called Pathribal, claiming that the “foreign militants” responsible for the Sikh massacre had been found and duly eliminated.  When local village people protested, investigations began.  When the final results of the investigation were made public, it was found that local police was responsible for the massacre of the Sikhs.

The Samjhota Express incident is more disconcerting, and one that Pakistanis remember bitterly.  On 18 February 2007, two bombs went off near the Indian city of Panipat on the Samjhota Express twice-weekly train between Lahore and Delhi, initiated as its name suggests (Samjhota means Agreement in both Hindi and Urdu) to enhance cordial relations between the two countries.  The terrorist attack, which killed 68 (mostly Pakistanis) and injured many others was blamed once again on Lashkare Taiba.  Indian authorities claimed that the alleged perpetrator was named Rana Shaukat Ali and a photograph of the terrorist was provided.  Four months later, investigations revealed that neither Rana nor Lashkare Taiba but a serving lieutenant colonel of the Indian army, Lt. Col. Purohit was responsible for the attack.  Purohit, it was found, had links with Hindu militant groups and provided training to extremists.

For Pakistan, the most troubling aspect of the 26 November 2008 terror attacks in Mumbai is the fact that the three brave men who had been tasked with finalizing the findings of both the Samjhota Express incident and the Malegaon blasts linking Lt. Col. Purohit conclusively to the terrorist attacks were all killed.  Mr. Hemant Karkare, in charge of the investigation, was one of the first people shot by the terrorists, followed by DIG Ashok Kale and encounter specialist Vijay Salazar.

If this is a coincidence, it is definitely a godsend for the extremist Hindu groups and the right-wing BJP, waiting to unseat the Congress government in the upcoming elections.  But many in Pakistan suspect something more sinister may be involved.

It is alleged that the perpetrators of the 26/11 violence entered Mumbai by sea and arrived by trawlers from Karachi.  Karachi is 500 nautical miles from Mumbai; not an easy distance to cover in a trawler.  Even if one were to assume that this was the case, India has twenty-one separate radar systems that monitor the coastal line between Karachi and Mumbai.  More importantly, Sir Creek is the un-demarcated boundary along the Arabian Sea and the Rann of Kutch, straddling Pakistan’s Sindh province and the Indian state of Gujarat.  This is both an international border and a source of dispute between India and Pakistan.  The 1965 war between the two nations began at the Rann of Kutch.

In August 1999, a Pakistani surveillance aircraft was shot down by the Indian Air Force in the Rann of Katch.  The area is heavily patrolled.  How the trawler made it all the way to Mumbai without being detected is a mystery, especially since fishermen on both sides of the border, both Indian and Pakistani, regularly find themselves apprehended as they mistakenly cross over into hostile territory.  Every year, both countries arrest hundreds of fishermen for illegal intrusion.  Fishermen complain that they don’t know whose side they are on because of the dispute.  Every time Pakistan and India decide to re-start their peace process, one of the first measures taken is the release of the poor fishermen, who are caught and detained, through no fault of their own, their boats confiscated upon arrest.

But somehow the trawler dodged all patrols and made it all the way to Mumbai.  Regular procedure for boats and ships docking at Mumbai entails thorough checks, but it appears that the terrorist trawler was able to evade that as well.

Too many questions remain.  Too few answers are being given.  India and Pakistan have an equal interest in finding out who is behind this terrible mayhem that has clutched Mumbai.  The investigation must be thorough and conducted without prematurely blaming any organization or country.  India and Pakistan must root out all those who would like to see terror grip the region and derail peace processes, regardless of whether they are Hindu or Muslim.

Ayesha Ijaz Khan is a London-based lawyer and political commentator and can be contacted via her website www.ayeshaijazkhan.com
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Re:Mumbai
« Reply #20 on: 2008-12-03 13:46:13 »
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[letheomaniac] I'm with the false flag crowd. The whole thing stinks. Very convenient that there is a 'lone surviving terrorist' IMHO. Lone gunman eh? Heard that one before...

[Hermit] A false flag operation doesn't mean you blame the wrong people afterwards (Afghanistan, Saddam Hussein, etc.), it means that you set up an operation, and pretend to be somebody else. So if for example, the BJP set this up, intending Pakistan get the blame, that would make it a false flag operation. The trouble with theories about hair brained schemes like that is that the reason they are hair brained is that conspiracies have a tendency not to stay secret - especially if somebody who knows that it was a false flag operation is left alive - and most people outside the USA, even religious extremists, have the ability to recognize this.

[Hermit] Yes it is possible that the operatives didn't know who their bosses were and never suspected a thing. Just as it is possible that it was caused by US or Israeli agents hoping to increase the amount of money India wastes on arms purchases. Or even by antiabortion campaigners disgusted that India permits abortions at all. But all of these are complicated hypothesis, requiring external parties with motivation, capacity and opportunity, being made in the absolute absence of evidence (speculation isn't evidence). An additional factor is that, from what the Indian authorities knew before the operation, it is clear that the only people less competent than the criminals were the authorities. Which may not be atypical, but also speaks to this being no more than a criminal act. In otherwords, in the absence of some less speculative "evidence," I'd label such theories as rather less probable than the straightforward idea that a bunch of stupid criminals tried to strike a blow against their tribal enemies and, or the crusaders.

Kindest Regards

Hermit

PS Smuggling tends to stop when there is about a 4% loss of goods due to interception. The British achieved that for a very short while, but massive endemic corruption scuppered their attempts, and the gold and drug smuggling operations resumed as they have in that part of the world since time immemorial, with scarcely a hiccough. So I very much doubt that the waterways are nearly as impervious as the CounterPunch article suggests.
« Last Edit: 2008-12-03 21:16:45 by Hermit » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Mumbai
« Reply #21 on: 2008-12-03 14:52:55 »
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The water cooler talk at the home office from the kids linked to India clearly agree, idiot terrorist not able to play nicely in the world did it and it will not precipitate an India/ Pakistan armed conflict, largely because of a different maturity level not grasped by North Americans. I hope they are correct.

Cheers

Fritz


PS:Article below; is for contrast.

Source: Debka
Author: NA
Date: December 1, 2008, 9:18 AM (GMT+02:00)

Three US aircraft carriers with strike groups, task forces and nuclear submarines have piled up in the waters of the Arabian Sea opposite the shores of India, Pakistan and Iran, and in the Persian Gulf.

DEBKAfile's military sources report that the US began massing this formidable array of floating firepower at the outset of the Islamist terrorist attack on the Indian city of Mumbai last Wednesday, Nov. 26.

Tehran responded typically with a threat of retaliation should the Americans decide to use the Mumbai terrorist attack to hit Iran.

It is more likely, according to our military sources, that the Americans are on the ready in case the rising tensions between India and Pakistan over the New Delhi's charge of Pakistani involvement in the Mumbai atrocity explodes into an armed clash on their border.



This is indicated by the units now deployed:

1. the USS John C. Stennis, which carries 80 fighter-bombers and 3,200 sailors and airmen and leads a strike group..

This carrier joins two already there, the USS Theodore Roosevelt, which patrols the northern Arabian Sea, part of whose strike group cruises opposite Iran's southern coast; and the USS Iwo Jima, which carries a large marine contingent on board.

2. New to these waters, according to DEBKAfile's military sources, is the Destroyer Squadron 50/CTF 55, which has two task forces: Patrol Forces Southwest Asia (PATFORSWA) for strikes against warships and the rapid deployment of marines to flashpoint arenas; and Mine Countermeasures Division 31, which stands ready to prevent New Delhi or Islamabad from mining the Arabian Sea routes connecting their ports. Those routes are vital waterways for US marine traffic supporting the war in Afghanistan.

3. To manage this armada, the command and control vessel, USS Mount Whitney, has been brought over from the Mediterranean.

4. Four nuclear submarines.

The arrival of the southwest Asian marine patrol carrier Stennis and the Mount Whitney to the Arabian Sea opposite Iran's shores set alarm bells ringing in Tehran. Our Iranian sources note that the Islamic republic's rulers remember that after al Qaeda's attack on the United States on Sept. 11, 2001, the Americans did not only invade Afghanistan, but also Iraq and they fear a similar sideswipe.

The Iranian chief of staff, Maj. Gen. Ataoallah Salehi sounded a warning when he stated Sunday, Nov. 30: The "heavy weight" of enemy warships provides the Iranian side with an ideal opportunity for launching successful counter-attacks.
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Re:Mumbai
« Reply #22 on: 2008-12-03 15:01:08 »
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Quote from: MoEnzyme on 2008-12-03 03:02:08   
PS. I've always known that Islamic martyrs were crazy, firstly because they were hoping for a thousand virgins in heaven. A man with any sense knows that a thousand sluts would be much more fun.




[Blunderov] <awards Mo his rightful prize for calling the shots so good lately>
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Re:Mumbai
« Reply #23 on: 2008-12-03 20:52:47 »
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to Mo:

sorry..this has nothing to do with religion and all about politics. there has always been religious strife in the region. indian muslims and hindus have managed to live together...it may not be perfect, but it has been done. it is mind numbingly stupid to pull off like this for 'religious' lessons. people who have been at each other's throats for centuries know the amount of pressure they can apply to the jugular and they know how far they can push the other. and for someone who is allegedly al-queda..and who has pulled off some spectacularly co-ordinated attacks in various parts of the world, it is rather shabby logic to think that this botched up sorry excuse of a 'jihad' in mumbai will convert the region into islam...doesnt the whole al-queda logic seem full of holes?..you got a bunch of religious nuts who kill others that dont subscribe to their religion...to what end? to convert them? to convince them? to kill them all?...REALLY?...who is dumb? this shadowy group, al-queda or the those of us who think that such an outfit like al-queda exists? the only thing it has achieved(and i believe that it had meant to achieve in the first place) is to rouse the regional players and make the brits.americans and israelis vulnerable enough to want to intrude in the region's affairs.

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Re:Mumbai
« Reply #24 on: 2008-12-03 21:32:42 »
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2008-12-03 20:52:47   

to Mo:

sorry..this has nothing to do with religion and all about politics. there has always been religious strife in the region. indian muslims and hindus have managed to live together...it may not be perfect, but it has been done. it is mind numbingly stupid to pull off like this for 'religious' lessons. people who have been at each other's throats for centuries know the amount of pressure they can apply to the jugular and they know how far they can push the other. and for someone who is allegedly al-queda..and who has pulled off some spectacularly co-ordinated attacks in various parts of the world, it is rather shabby logic to think that this botched up sorry excuse of a 'jihad' in mumbai will convert the region into islam...doesnt the whole al-queda logic seem full of holes?..you got a bunch of religious nuts who kill others that dont subscribe to their religion...to what end? to convert them? to convince them? to kill them all?...REALLY?...who is dumb? this shadowy group, al-queda or the those of us who think that such an outfit like al-queda exists? the only thing it has achieved(and i believe that it had meant to achieve in the first place) is to rouse the regional players and make the brits.americans and israelis vulnerable enough to want to intrude in the region's affairs.



Thanks for your perspective Mermaid. Even as I have my doubts that this is a false flag operation (I certainly know I could be wrong, keep me posted) I think your attitude is particularly sane in either case. I don't know what things look like from your place in the world, but I would like to believe the way that Fritz has encapsulated it:

"The water cooler talk at the home office from the kids linked to India clearly agree, idiot terrorist not able to play nicely in the world did it and it will not precipitate an India/ Pakistan armed conflict, largely because of a different maturity level not grasped by North Americans. I hope they are correct."

Me too.

-Mo
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Re:Mumbai
« Reply #25 on: 2008-12-03 21:46:30 »
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Quote from: Blunderov on 2008-12-03 15:01:08   

Quote from: MoEnzyme on 2008-12-03 03:02:08   
PS. I've always known that Islamic martyrs were crazy, firstly because they were hoping for a thousand virgins in heaven. A man with any sense knows that a thousand sluts would be much more fun.





[Blunderov] <awards Mo his rightful prize for calling the shots so good lately>


Aw shucks. Thanks Blunderov, . . . ya think you can introduce me to that chick on the right going down on the microphone   When my new religious cult gains more recognition, sluts will recieve that special blessing that most other religions have wrongfully denied them, and Monica Lewinsky will be recognized as the patriot she truly is.

Much love,

-Mo
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Re:Mumbai
« Reply #26 on: 2008-12-04 14:50:02 »
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i think at this point, the most important question we have to ask is not 'how to stop al-queda'...but what IS al-queda..and if does indeed exist?

i have been thinking this past week..seriously..what exactly do we know about al-queda again and whats the proof that we are basing our assumptions on again?


Quote from: MoEnzyme on 2008-12-03 21:32:42   


Quote from: Mermaid on 2008-12-03 20:52:47   

to Mo:

sorry..this has nothing to do with religion and all about politics. there has always been religious strife in the region. indian muslims and hindus have managed to live together...it may not be perfect, but it has been done. it is mind numbingly stupid to pull off like this for 'religious' lessons. people who have been at each other's throats for centuries know the amount of pressure they can apply to the jugular and they know how far they can push the other. and for someone who is allegedly al-queda..and who has pulled off some spectacularly co-ordinated attacks in various parts of the world, it is rather shabby logic to think that this botched up sorry excuse of a 'jihad' in mumbai will convert the region into islam...doesnt the whole al-queda logic seem full of holes?..you got a bunch of religious nuts who kill others that dont subscribe to their religion...to what end? to convert them? to convince them? to kill them all?...REALLY?...who is dumb? this shadowy group, al-queda or the those of us who think that such an outfit like al-queda exists? the only thing it has achieved(and i believe that it had meant to achieve in the first place) is to rouse the regional players and make the brits.americans and israelis vulnerable enough to want to intrude in the region's affairs.



Thanks for your perspective Mermaid. Even as I have my doubts that this is a false flag operation (I certainly know I could be wrong, keep me posted) I think your attitude is particularly sane in either case. I don't know what things look like from your place in the world, but I would like to believe the way that Fritz has encapsulated it:

"The water cooler talk at the home office from the kids linked to India clearly agree, idiot terrorist not able to play nicely in the world did it and it will not precipitate an India/ Pakistan armed conflict, largely because of a different maturity level not grasped by North Americans. I hope they are correct."

Me too.

-Mo

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Re:Mumbai
« Reply #27 on: 2008-12-04 19:50:06 »
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2008-12-04 14:50:02   

i think at this point, the most important question we have to ask is not 'how to stop al-queda'...but what IS al-queda..and if does indeed exist?

i have been thinking this past week..seriously..what exactly do we know about al-queda again and whats the proof that we are basing our assumptions on again?

Hmmm. Well, I'm certainly not a 9/11 conspiracy "Truther", so for me the question of what is Al-qeda more or less starts with the criminal thugs lead by Osama Bin Laden and his fellow Mujahadeen buddies based in Afghanistan and scattered about "Dar al Islam" at the time of the attack. Of course I know that's simply my US-centric definition, but at least I'm honest about it that way. Of course Al-qeda is obviously something different today, but I think that covers its historical origins in a nutshell. Do we agree on this much?
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Re:Mumbai
« Reply #28 on: 2008-12-04 23:22:22 »
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honestly? i am not so sure anymore.


Quote from: MoEnzyme on 2008-12-04 19:50:06   


Quote from: Mermaid on 2008-12-04 14:50:02   

i think at this point, the most important question we have to ask is not 'how to stop al-queda'...but what IS al-queda..and if does indeed exist?

i have been thinking this past week..seriously..what exactly do we know about al-queda again and whats the proof that we are basing our assumptions on again?

Hmmm. Well, I'm certainly not a 9/11 conspiracy "Truther", so for me the question of what is Al-qeda more or less starts with the criminal thugs lead by Osama Bin Laden and his fellow Mujahadeen buddies based in Afghanistan and scattered about "Dar al Islam" at the time of the attack. Of course I know that's simply my US-centric definition, but at least I'm honest about it that way. Of course Al-qeda is obviously something different today, but I think that covers its historical origins in a nutshell. Do we agree on this much?

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Re:Mumbai
« Reply #29 on: 2008-12-05 00:57:51 »
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Highlights from Wikipedia, much longer fuller article and useful text links there. Al Qaeda

Al-Qaeda, alternatively spelled al-Qaida and sometimes al-Qa'ida, (Arabic: translation: The Base) is an international Sunni Islamist movement founded in 1988. Al-Qaeda have attacked civilian and military targets in various countries, the most notable being the September 11 attacks in 2001. These actions were followed by the US government launching a military and intelligence campaign against al-Qaeda called the War on Terror.<
Characteristic techniques include suicide attacks and simultaneous bombings of different targets.[5] Activities ascribed to it may involve members of the movement, who have taken a pledge of loyalty to Osama bin Laden, or the much more numerous "al-Qaeda-linked" individuals who have undergone training in one of its camps in Afghanistan or Sudan but not taken any pledge.[6] Al-Qaeda's objectives include the end of foreign influence in Muslim countries and the creation of a new Islamic caliphate. Reported beliefs include that a Christian-Jewish alliance is conspiring to destroy Islam,[7] and that the killing of bystanders and civilians is Islamically justified in jihad. Its management philosophy has been described as "centralization of decision and decentralization of execution."[8] Following 9/11 and the launching of the War on Terrorism, it is thought al-Qaeda's leadership has "become geographically isolated", leading to the "emergence of decentralized leadership" of regional groups using the al-Qaeda "brand name."[9][10] . . . .

. . . . Saad Al-Faqih, a Saudi expert on al-Qaida, has stated that the name al-Qaida, "...originated from a documentation system in the Bait al-Ansar guesthouse back in the 1980s."[30] The United Kingdom politician Robin Cook, who served as the United Kingdom Foreign Secretary and Leader of the House of Commons described Al-Qaeda as meaning "the database" and a product of western miscalculation. Cook wrote, "Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians."[31] . . . .

. . . . The origins of the group can be traced to the Soviet war in Afghanistan. The United States viewed the conflict in Afghanistan, with the Afghan Marxists and allied Soviet troops on one side and the native Afghan mujahedeen on the other, as a blatant case of Soviet expansionism and aggression. The U.S. channelled funds through Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency to the native Afghan mujahedeen fighting the Soviet occupation in a CIA program called Operation Cyclone.[42][43][dubious – discuss]<
At the same time, a growing number of foreign Arab mujahedeen (also called Afghan Arabs) joined the jihad against the Afghan Marxist regime, facilitated by international Muslim organizations, particularly the Maktab al-Khidamat,[44] whose funds came from some of the $600 million a year donated to the jihad by the Saudi Arabia government and individual Muslims - particularly wealthy Saudis who were approached by Osama bin Laden.[45] Maktab al-Khidamat was established by Abdullah Azzam and Bin Laden in Peshawar, Pakistan, in 1984. From 1986 it began to set up a network of recruiting offices in the United States, the hub of which was the Al Kifah Refugee Center at the Farouq Mosque in Brooklyn's Atlantic Avenue. Among notable figures at the Brooklyn center were "double agent" Ali Mohamed, whom FBI special agent Jack Cloonan called "bin Laden's first trainer,"[46] and "Blind Sheikh" Omar Abdel-Rahman, a leading recruiter of mujahideen for Afghanistan . . . .

. . . . just a small fraction of the wiki on this one to orient the CoV. Be sure to read the whole entry for Al Qaeda.




« Last Edit: 2008-12-05 00:59:05 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme


(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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