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Blunderov
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RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« on: 2004-10-12 12:20:18 »
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[Blunderov] Dirty work at the crossroads but
http://www.indymedia.org/en/index.shtml is still up and running. Some
snippets from this site:

<snip>"Uruguay has a long history of media repression. We don't have the
money to pay for web hosting, and so we rely on the solidarity of other
countries. Actions like the seizure of the servers make the whole world
insecure for free media," says Libertinus, an Indymedia volunteer from
Uruguay, one of many Indymedia web sites that was caught in the FBI
actions as a bystander. "Uruguay's national elections will take place on
October 31st. It's a bad time for this to happen." </snip>

<snip>Suppress the Vote
It has become clear that the Republican Party is attempting to suppress
the vote of people in marginalized communities from Florida to Arizona.
A Republican legislator in Michigan has said that they need to "suppress
the Detroit vote"--the city of Detroit is over 80 percent people of
color--while the head of (flawed) voting machine manafacturer Diebold
has promised to deliver the swing state of Ohio to the Republicans.

In response, thousands of activists are traveling to swing states to
help protect the hard-won right of marginalized communities to vote and
human-rights NGO Global Exchange is sponsoring an international team of
election observers.

Meanwhile, the Democratic Party is conducting their own state by state
campaign to keep third-party candidate Ralph Nader off the ballot.
</snip>

Things that make you go hmmm...

Best Regards.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3732718.stm

US seizes independent media sites

Indymedia reports on the anti-globalisation movement
The FBI has shut down some 20 sites which were part of an alternative
media network known as Indymedia.
A US court order forced the firm hosting the material to hand over two
servers in the UK used by the group.

Indymedia says it is a news source for the anti-globalisation movement
and other social justice issues.

The reasons behind the seizure are unclear but the FBI has reportedly
said the action was taken at the request of Italian and Swiss
authorities.

Legal action

The servers affected were run by Rackspace, a US web hosting company
with offices in London.

It said it had received a court order from the US authorities last
Thursday to hand over the computer equipment at its UK hosting facility.


The way this has been done smacks more of intimidation of legitimate
journalistic inquiry than crime-busting

Aidan White, International Federation of Journalists 
"Rackspace is acting as a good corporate citizen and is cooperating with
international law enforcement authorities," said a statement by the
company.

It said it was responding to an order issued under the Mutual Legal
Assistance Treaty. Under the agreement, countries assist each other in
investigations such as international terrorism, kidnapping and money
laundering

The reasons behind the action against the Indymedia websites are
unclear.

The group said the servers affected had hosted the sites of more then 20
local collectives and audio streams for several radio stations, as well
as several other projects.

"Indymedia had been asked last month by the FBI to remove a story about
Swiss undercover police from one of the websites hosted at Rackspace,"
said the group in a statement.

"It is not known, however, whether Thursday's order is related to that
incident since the order was issued to Rackspace and not to Indymedia."

'Intolerable and intrusive'

A FBI spokesperson told the AFP news agency that it was not an FBI
operation, saying the order had been issued at the request of Italian
and Swiss authorities.

The seizure has sparked off protests from journalist groups.

"We have witnessed an intolerable and intrusive international police
operation against a network specialising in independent journalism,"
said Aidan White, general secretary of the International Federation of
Journalists.

"The way this has been done smacks more of intimidation of legitimate
journalistic inquiry than crime-busting."

The UK site of Indymedia is back up and running but several of the other
20 sites affected are still offline.

In the US, the civil liberties group, the Electronic Frontier Foundation
(EFF) said it was working with Indymedia over how to react to the
seizures.

"The constitution does not permit the government unilaterally to cut off
the speech of an independent media outlet, especially without providing
a reason or even allowing Indymedia the information necessary to contest
the seizure," said EFF Staff Attorney Kurt Opsahl.




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Joe Dees
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RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #1 on: 2004-10-12 13:34:21 »
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RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #2 on: 2004-10-12 13:36:31 »
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RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #3 on: 2004-10-12 13:42:48 »
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RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #4 on: 2004-10-12 13:48:55 »
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RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #5 on: 2004-10-12 13:50:26 »
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RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #6 on: 2004-10-12 13:52:20 »
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RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #7 on: 2004-10-13 15:30:12 »
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Joe Dees, you are flooding the main list again. Please stop.
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RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #8 on: 2004-10-13 19:09:10 »
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RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #9 on: 2004-10-13 20:31:40 »
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Dear Mermaid, I understand your intentions to be well meaning, but in the future you  might want to exercise greater care when entering a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

That Joe is still allowed to post at all in this forum is an example of the lengths to which this list will go in order to be tolerate of all views, rational or not.

TTFN, I must go now to assist the masons and the trilateral commission in the construction of the new world order over at the knights templar headquarters...and unfortunately I'm running late, again. 
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Joe Dees
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RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #10 on: 2004-10-13 22:24:13 »
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Casey
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RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #11 on: 2004-10-14 13:01:57 »
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[Joe Dees]
JerryLee is apparently confused and mistaken; he must somehow think that Mermaid was arguing with him, not me, for he is the person who just manifestly demonstrated disarmed, rather than disarming, wit.  For instance, he apparently considers it to be an act of magnanimous and beneficient tolerance that I am allowed to post here at all; however, I consider the fact that my emails are, alone of all the members, not publicly sent to the list members at large to be the most shameful badge of intolerance and ideological bigotry I have ever seen on a list.

[Casey]
So, why do you continue to post to this list if this is such an intorable and ideologically bigoted list? 

[Joe Dees]
But it gets even worse than that.  These same enlightened angels of beneficient tolerance and love of progressive diversity also attempted to prevent me from even posting to the BBS; if I could post neither to the email list nor to the BBS, I would be effectively and totally  disenfranchised - there would be no practical, pragmatic distinction between such a status and that of a nonmember. 

[Casey]
If you're reputation rises, then this is a non-issue.  But, your reputation, per Meridion, is at a low level because your posts are, more often that not, cut and pasted articles, with nary a word of your own contributed to the discussion.

[Joe Dees]
They seem to have contracted not only a memetic disease, but one that seems fundamentalist and totalitarian in nature; one that views any dissent from the dogmatic party line as anathema to be inoculated against and attacked via personal insult, shunning, silencing and, finally, a shamefully co-ordinated ratification of list dhimmitude. 

[Casey]
Take a look in the mirror, Joe.  You've become a neo-conservative memebot; having gone off the deep end with your neo-conservative-laced cut and pasted articles.

[Joe Dees]
At least Hermit, as execrable as he was in his comments concerning my mother and as much as he waged warfare against me for calling him to account for his wildly inaccurate predictions concerning Afghanistan, (where, contrary to his crystal ball and candle stylings, the US military didn't die en masse, the Afghani people didn't die in masse of cold or starvation, the Taliban was deposed in an amazingly short time, there was a subsequent mass return of refugees rather than mass exodus, and a democratic election was just held in which 90% of the eligible people signed up and voted  - including 44% of the vote being cast by women), he at least had the stones to EXPLICITLY endeavor to expel this dissenter and morph this list into a clone of Smirkingchimp.com or moveon.org and a cyberarm of George Soros, Michael Moore and the Democratic campaign.

[Casey]
You raised the issue of personal insult, yet you tossed one out here referring to Hermit as "execrable".  It's a two-way street.  Your words have already come back to haunt you here. 

In regards to Afghanistan - the US went there with the explicit goal to root out Osama bin Laden.  That goal has NOT been met.    The US cannot consider it a success until Osama has been apprehended.  Going into Afghanistan with the troops levels the US used was simply a mistake on the war planners parts.  If we had used our troops, instead of Northern Alliance troops that were often times enemies of one another, then we might have apprehended/killed Osama.  But, the US didn't.  Chalk that mistake on the Bush administration. 

[Joe Dees]
It seems that the chickendoves who are still yet attempting to fulfill his foul legacy of changing this list from one that studies many memetic infections in general to one that embodies one memetic infestation in particular are only willing to move in these directions implicitly, rather than to with honesty, clarity and integrity own up to them in word as well as in deed.

[Casey]
I think I speak with clarity when I say that studying your neo-conservative memetic infection is trite.    We've seen you display it time and time again and it's appalling what a memetic infection like your own can do to a once-rational and intelligent individual. 

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RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #12 on: 2004-10-14 14:42:07 »
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #13 on: 2004-10-14 16:04:57 »
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'Knowing full well'? Actually I thought Joe Dees had been banned altogether. I am not a habituee of the BBS - I keep meaning to check in more regularly- and prefer the e-mail list for various reasons.

Last I heard, Joe had been kicked for also flooding the BBS. Plainly I got the wrong impression or there have been subsequent developments.

Cut and paste postings by me? I dispute that but in any case I think the issue is more one of volume than it is of format. In this respect, and in many another, I feel certain the congregation will have no difficulty in distinguishing the differences between us.

In truth, I do not miss Joe's postings on the e-mail list, nor have I any desire to read them on the BBS. I have no more stomach for American foreign 'policy', nor words to describe my utter contempt for the political process that has made it possible.

As Always.





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RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #14 on: 2004-10-15 06:55:16 »
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Casey
Sent: 14 October 2004 18:02
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites


[Joe Dees]
JerryLee is apparently confused and mistaken; he must somehow think that
Mermaid was arguing with him, not me, for he is the person who just
manifestly demonstrated disarmed, rather than disarming, wit.  For instance,
he apparently considers it to be an act of magnanimous and beneficient
tolerance that I am allowed to post here at all; however, I consider the
fact that my emails are, alone of all the members, not publicly sent to the
list members at large to be the most shameful badge of intolerance and
ideological bigotry I have ever seen on a list.

[Casey]
So, why do you continue to post to this list if this is such an intorable
and ideologically bigoted list? 

[Jonathan] I think Joe continues to post and read here because he loves a
good fight and enjoys the non-political posts.

[Joe Dees]
But it gets even worse than that.  These same enlightened angels of
beneficient tolerance and love of progressive diversity also attempted to
prevent me from even posting to the BBS; if I could post neither to the
email list nor to the BBS, I would be effectively and totally
disenfranchised - there would be no practical, pragmatic distinction between
such a status and that of a nonmember. 

[Casey]
If you're reputation rises, then this is a non-issue.  But, your reputation,
per Meridion, is at a low level because your posts are, more often that not,
cut and pasted articles, with nary a word of your own contributed to the
discussion.

[Jonathan] Meridion is not really much use in this case. A consensus has
built up about Joe, some of it justified, some of it manipulated (he has
definitely been baited at times). We need heterodoxy. We need contrarians.
We need diversity. If we do not have these then we will become dogmatic and
a facsimile of the theist churches.
Meridion-as-popularity-contest-and-license-to-post is rife with internal
contradictions. There is no mechanism for reform. We are stuck forever with
the views and likes (or dislikes) of the founding members. It is like equity
(the actors union). You cannot be an actor without an equity card and you
cannot get an equity card if you have not acted professionally. A closed
shop as they say in trade unionism. Is this what we want for the CoV?

Meridion will only really work for this sort of thing when we are large and
diverse enough to have the "wisdom of crowds" phenomenon apply. By using it
to decide policy and rules now risks a logical short circuit.

It is no unlike capitalism in its mechanism. "Reputation" concentrates with
a few people who use it to reform the church in ways that make it more and
more inhospitable for certain types of people and eventually those other
people leave. You get positive feedback (bad thing, despite its name). We
end up having dogma.

What would this church do if we had 20 deeply (politically) conservative
atheist rationalists join us.  Big Bush supporters, but otherwise
rationalist atheists. Say they formed a cabal, all rated each other 9 and
started targeting our more liberal members for political combat and even
ejection. Say they invited 40 more of their cronies. And suddenly the
lefties in the church are a minority. A OPPRESSED minority. What then?
Surrender to Meridion ratings? I don't think so.

Is Meridion your protection? What are the mechanisms to ensure that minority
rights are up-held (and I would think that right or reply is pretty much a
staple, something partially denied Joe Dees in this forum).

You get my point I hope. How we treat unpopular people is a measure of our
maturity and strength. Keep in mind popularity itself can be a bias and
weapon of unfairness and irrationality.


[Joe Dees]
They seem to have contracted not only a memetic disease, but one that seems
fundamentalist and totalitarian in nature; one that views any dissent from
the dogmatic party line as anathema to be inoculated against and attacked
via personal insult, shunning, silencing and, finally, a shamefully
co-ordinated ratification of list dhimmitude. 

[Casey]
Take a look in the mirror, Joe.  You've become a neo-conservative memebot;
having gone off the deep end with your neo-conservative-laced cut and pasted
articles.

[Jonathan] Casey, I have to disagree with you here. Joe is not a memebot but
he sometimes takes the fight to people here who spam the list with (unwanted
by me) leftist/anti-Bush/anti-American political pronouncements and
propaganda pieces .

Joe balances up. If there were more people like Joe in this church the
reply-to-propaganda load would be shared as it is by Joes opponents.

It is like measuring aggression by the number of punches a man throws, then
denouncing a man who is attacked by 5 people as "aggressive" because he
throws more punches (on average) than his foes.

Joe is at a disadvantage because he is massively outnumbered. But he
*represents* a very valid (and dare I say it, popular) viewpoint. We can
shut our ears to it, ban it, denounce it, but it will not go away.

[Joe Dees]
At least Hermit, as execrable as he was in his comments concerning my mother
and as much as he waged warfare against me for calling him to account for
his wildly inaccurate predictions concerning Afghanistan, (where, contrary
to his crystal ball and candle stylings, the US military didn't die en
masse, the Afghani people didn't die in masse of cold or starvation, the
Taliban was deposed in an amazingly short time, there was a subsequent mass
return of refugees rather than mass exodus, and a democratic election was
just held in which 90% of the eligible people signed up and voted  -
including 44% of the vote being cast by women), he at least had the stones
to EXPLICITLY endeavor to expel this dissenter and morph this list into a
clone of Smirkingchimp.com or moveon.org and a cyberarm of George Soros,
Michael Moore and the Democratic campaign.

[Casey]
You raised the issue of personal insult, yet you tossed one out here
referring to Hermit as "execrable".  It's a two-way street.  Your words
have already come back to haunt you here. 

[Jonathan] No, Joe said here "as execrable as he was *in his comments
concerning my mother*". Hermit's comments were just that. Not even he
defends them.

Lets be fair Casey. Joe is mainly *responding*. Double standards are
routinely applied to Joe.

We discussed this in June. It might be worth rereading what I said then in
the context of quoting the scripture of Joe's own words against himself.

http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=3041
4;post=47




[Casey] In regards to Afghanistan - the US went there with the explicit goal
to root out Osama bin Laden.  That goal has NOT been met.    The US cannot
consider it a success until Osama has been apprehended. 

[Jonathan] This is simply not true. The aims (and there are many) included
destroying Al Qaeda's base of operations (achieved), kill or capture Osama
bin Laden (I believe he is dead), install a democracy (achieved) etc etc.

These are massive successes.


[Casey] Going into Afghanistan with the troops levels the US used was simply
a mistake on the war planners parts.  If we had used our troops, instead of
Northern Alliance troops that were often times enemies of one another, then
we might have apprehended/killed Osama.  But, the US didn't.  Chalk that
mistake on the Bush administration. 

[Jonathan] This is simply wrong. Osama is probably dead and his escape (if
he made it) was simply luck. You cannot move thousands of troops into the
Hindu Kush in days and it is likely he was (and if he lives, is) hiding in
that region since before 9/11. The strategy of getting the Northern Alliance
to fight on the ground was brilliant and ALL the dire predictions that
people like Hermit made turned out to be completely and utterly wrong
exactly as Joe has stated.

[Joe Dees]
It seems that the chickendoves who are still yet attempting to fulfill his
foul legacy of changing this list from one that studies many memetic
infections in general to one that embodies one memetic infestation in
particular are only willing to move in these directions implicitly, rather
than to with honesty, clarity and integrity own up to them in word as well
as in deed.

[Casey]
I think I speak with clarity when I say that studying your neo-conservative
memetic infection is trite.    We've seen you display it time and time again
and it's appalling what a memetic infection like your own can do to a
once-rational and intelligent individual. 

[Jonathan] This vituperation and ire is in my view misplaced. You and Joe
agree on far far more than you disagree ( bit like Kerry and Bush then huh?)
:-)


Fond regards,

Jonathan


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