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Topic: RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle. (Read 2314 times) |
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Mermaid
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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #30 on: 2004-05-22 15:53:36 » |
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[JD 2] Yes. You can lose the protections of the conventions if you breach
them.
[Mermaid]Does the geneva convention say anything about misusing or using white flags?? misuse a white flag...get your balls sizzled?
[Limbic]I do not think anyone was getting their balls shocked by US troops. It appears they were getting threatened with torture & roughed up, not directly
tortured.
[Mermaid]HUH? where have you been? and where are you getting this information from?
[JD]This cannot be said of the US breaches which have been exposed,
denounced and the miscreants are in the process of being punished.
[Mermaid]Punished by those who exposed the 'breaches'? Or punished by the miscreant themself? e.g. jerry sivets get one year in prison for taking the
pictures of the most famous prisoner abuse case(many have gone unreported in popular media) and for repeating under orders that the abuse was not conducted with full military permission, if not instructions.
[JD 2] Wrongdoing punished with the intention of preventing it happening
again.
[Mermaid]With one year in prison? all that pictures = one year in prison...plus..we have to take the word of this pig that it wasnt done under orders from above...how are we believe it? how are you fashioning this story?
[JD]Can anyone show me where the current Insurgents have signed up? Can anyone show me where they have ever respected these conventions?
[Mermaid]Imagine a burglar breaks into your house, steals all your stuff,
tries to kill you, rape your wife and daughters, passes electricity through
your penis and screams bloody murder when you hit him with a stick. His
accomplice mumbles that you are not acting acc to the law.
[JD 2] And the awards for purple prose and false analogy go
to....MERMAID!!!!! Given what I wrote in the "Rumsfeld Wiggle" thread, is
this not plagiarism?
"Seems to me a bit like saying to a guy obeying Queensbury rules in a boxing match "Uh oh, one of your punches landed low, your opponents gloves are coming off!" whilst his opponent has been wearing knuckdusters and kicking for the groin all along."
[Mermaid]How is it 'plagiarism'? boxing match! as if i'd get THAT! i really dont see how anyone can justify the actions of the us army by declaring that an unorganised group of people didnt stick to the 'geneva convention'..esp since they didnt start the war or invade any country...the more this exchange goes on, it seems to indicate that you are calling the us army a bunch of terrorists...do you see the gaps in your argument? ...anyways...you will have to tell me the progression of your thoughts from evidence/facts to conclusion...i am sure it will be terribly interesting...i, for one, cannot see the logic or rationality of your thought process..it seems to me that you already have decided upon the conclusion and you are working your way backwards to the facts...it seems a little shoddy and messy...can i be right?
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simul
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Re: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #31 on: 2004-05-22 16:11:30 » |
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Perhaps the camera was there so the images could be leaked?
The intention being that we would incite a major Jihad.
I recall a theory that Bush & Co. are messianic lunatics trying to bring about a Christian apocalypse. The best way to do that is to create a political situation that justifies a nuclear attack (fire from god).
Self-fulfilling prophecy rears its hideous, misshapen head.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #32 on: 2004-05-22 17:40:57 » |
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Erik Aronesty
Sent: 22 May 2004 10:12 PM
Perhaps the camera was there so the images could be leaked?
The intention being that we would incite a major Jihad.
I recall a theory that Bush & Co. are messianic lunatics trying to bring
about a Christian apocalypse. The best way to do that is to create a
political situation that justifies a nuclear attack (fire from god).
Self-fulfilling prophecy rears its hideous, misshapen head.
---
[Blunderov] Much as I would like to say that it's impossible, who knows?
Maybe.
Getting back to the photographs; I see that an officer has resigned rather
than faces charges of photographing his female colleagues in the showers at
Abu Ghraib.
http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,9630291%255E1702,00.html
They really do seem to have had a thing for amateur photography in that
place. And plenty of cameras with which to indulge their creative impulses
too. Do armies really allow all their troops to take unofficial cameras into
battlezones? Think of the intelligence implications. What sort of general
would allow that to happen?
Best Regards
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rhinoceros
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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #33 on: 2004-05-22 22:39:19 » |
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[rhinoceros]
Yes, all those cameras in Abu Ghraib prison... where did they come from? Strange.
Naive conjecture 1: Snapshots from standard prison surveillance system. I don't have the technical knowledge to support this.
Naive conjecture 2: It became a fad among the guards.
(Dirty minded version: Someone would pay for the photos.)
Paranoid conjecture: A neocon expert on psychological warfare came up with a short-sighted theory that the shock would cause despair and paralysis to the majority of the Iraqis (in common speech, they would be terrorized).
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rhinoceros
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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #34 on: 2004-05-22 22:58:07 » |
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[Mermaid]
Imagine a burglar breaks into your house, steals all your stuff, tries to kill you, rape your wife and daughters, passes electricity through your penis and screams bloody murder when you hit him with a stick. His accomplice mumbles that you are not acting acc to the law.
[JD 2]
And the awards for purple prose and false analogy go to....MERMAID!!!!! Given what I wrote in the "Rumsfeld Wiggle" thread, is this not plagiarism?
"Seems to me a bit like saying to a guy obeying Queensbury rules in a boxing match "Uh oh, one of your punches landed low, your opponents gloves are coming off!" whilst his opponent has been wearing knuckdusters and kicking for the groin all along."
[rhinoceros]
It does not seem such a bad analogy to me. In fact I think it was a charitable one. The key phrase was "into your house" (i.e. Iraq), and we haven't heard any claim that the abused Iraqi captives were from those"foreign jihadist troublemakers" who behead businessmen.
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #36 on: 2004-05-23 07:33:18 » |
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rhinoceros
Sent: 23 May 2004 04:39 AM
[rhinoceros]
Yes, all those cameras in Abu Ghraib prison... where did they come from?
Strange.
Naive conjecture 1: Snapshots from standard prison surveillance system. I
don't have the technical knowledge to support this.
Naive conjecture 2: It became a fad among the guards.
(Dirty minded version: Someone would pay for the photos.)
Paranoid conjecture: A neocon expert on psychological warfare came up with a
short-sighted theory that the shock would cause despair and paralysis to the
majority of the Iraqis (in common speech, they would be terrorized).
----
[Blunderov] After much searching I have managed to find the following
article which seems to suggest that your (not very) naïve conjecture 2 is
the most probable explanation.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/866956
1.htm?1c
Abu Ghraib photos reveal effect of ubiquitous cameras
BY CAROL ROSENBERG
Miami Herald
<excerpt>
BAGHDAD, Iraq - An American general's bodyguard carries his camera in his
ammo vest. A U.S. Army medic tucks his camera in his first aid bag. Soldiers
protecting convoys bring cameras along inside their Humvees.
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simul
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Re: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #37 on: 2004-05-23 10:20:42 » |
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[rhinoceros]
: Paranoid conjecture: A neocon
: expert on psychological warfare
: came up with a short-sighted
: theory that the shock would
: cause despair and paralysis to the
: majority of the Iraqis (in common
: speech, they would be terrorized).
<Erik>
Super-paranoid conjecture: The pictures were taken and released to anger Muslims and ensure continued terrorist acts.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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rhinoceros
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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #38 on: 2004-05-23 11:47:44 » |
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[rhinoceros]
Strange. While Blunderov's last post came whole through email, half of it appeared cut off in the BBS.
[Blunderov] To be stationed at Abu Ghraib was apparently not without its compensations according to
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,9556450%255E401,00.html
<excerpt>
Private Lynndie England - who became notorious after a photo showing her holding an Iraqi prisoner on a dog's leash at Abu Ghraib prison became public - was seen engaged in graphic sex acts with other soldiers in front of Iraqi prisoners, Pentagon officials said.
One Congressman said: "Almost everybody was naked all the time."
Another added: "She was having sex with numerous partners. It appeared to be consensual."
</excerpt>
[rhinoceros]
They may have been having fun in their own way, but it makes you wonder if it has something to do with the sector of the art market I mentioned in the 4th post of that thread:
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=60;action=display;threadid=30256
Maybe Lunndie discovered a career option other than going to college to study Meteorology after all?
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JD
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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #39 on: 2004-05-23 12:17:07 » |
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
rhinoceros
Sent: 23 May 2004 03:58
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
[Mermaid]
Imagine a burglar breaks into your house, steals all your stuff, tries to
kill you, rape your wife and daughters, passes electricity through your
penis and screams bloody murder when you hit him with a stick. His
accomplice mumbles that you are not acting acc to the law.
[JD 2]
And the awards for purple prose and false analogy go to....MERMAID!!!!!
Given what I wrote in the "Rumsfeld Wiggle" thread, is this not plagiarism?
"Seems to me a bit like saying to a guy obeying Queensbury rules in a boxing
match "Uh oh, one of your punches landed low, your opponents gloves are
coming off!" whilst his opponent has been wearing knuckdusters and kicking
for the groin all along."
[rhinoceros]
It does not seem such a bad analogy to me. In fact I think it was a
charitable one. The key phrase was "into your house" (i.e. Iraq), and we
haven't heard any claim that the abused Iraqi captives were from
those"foreign jihadist troublemakers" who behead businessmen.
[JD 3] The key phrases for me were linking the idea of rape, theft and
murder with the US liberation of Iraq. This is good propaganda, but
otherwise bunk. You are welcome to sympathise with the Baathists and urge
their return or believe that the US GIs in Iraq are worse than the Islamists
who are trying to kill them or even that the US routinely violates the
Geneva Conventions whilst it's enemies respect those conventions. The
problem is that this drives us too far apart on this issue to maintain
discourse. We cannot appear unable agree on even fundamental facts. I am
happy to wait for history to show who of us are right and wrong.
Sometimes I wish that the Geneva Conventions were abandoned completely. We
do not benefit from them fighting this Islamist enemy only they do. You
would see that the Islamist enemies of the United States, never having
obeyed any restraint, will not behave any differently. They are doing their
worst already. It would however allow the US to finish this fight quickly
and show what real power is. When we say "Can the US win" we mean can the US
win with the handicaps of respect for enemy Human Rights (where the enemy
has no balancing duties), a hostile media elite, cowardly citizens and an
opportunist political bloc that is more focussed on hatred of Bush that the
US's long term strategic well being.
Perhaps some terrible day the US will get to Israel's position: Increasingly
unable to fight under these constraints, yet forced to fight by those
attacking it, the US will opt for Caesarean methods and total war.
I sincerely hope that day never comes. But abusing our system to benefit the
enemy will force reform. We'll soon see what those reforms entail.
Regards
JD
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Mermaid
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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #40 on: 2004-05-23 12:37:49 » |
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[rhinoceros]
Yes, all those cameras in Abu Ghraib prison... where did they come from?
Strange.
[Mermaid]dont worry! Rumsfield has saved the day!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1114150.htm
Rumsfeld bans camera phones in Iraq: report
Mobile phones fitted with digital cameras have been banned in United States Army installations in Iraq on orders from Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, The Business newspaper reported on Sunday.
Quoting a Pentagon source, the paper said the US Defence Department believes that some of the damning photos of US soldiers abusing Iraqis at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad were taken with camera phones.
"Digital cameras, camcorders and mobile phones with cameras have been prohibited in military compounds in Iraq," it said.
A "total ban throughout the US military" is in the works, it added.
Disturbing new photos of Iraqi prisoner abuse, which the US government had reportedly tried to keep hidden, were published on Friday in the Washington Post newspaper.
The photos emerged along with details of testimony from inmates at Abu Ghraib who said they were sexually molested by female soldiers, beaten, sodomised and forced to eat food from toilets.
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rhinoceros
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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #41 on: 2004-05-23 13:28:02 » |
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[Mermaid] dont worry! Rumsfield has saved the day!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1114150.htm
Rumsfeld bans camera phones in Iraq: report
Mobile phones fitted with digital cameras have been banned in United States Army installations in Iraq on orders from Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, The Business newspaper reported on Sunday.
[rhinoceros] Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil...
By the way, I found this piece (it first appeared in the Washington Post).
Time to Stop 'Stress and Duress'
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2004/05/13/usint8578.htm
<begin quote>
The Defense Department has adopted a 72-point "matrix" of types of stress to which detainees can be subjected. These include stripping detainees naked, depriving them of sleep, subjecting them to bright lights or blaring noise, hooding them, exposing them to heat and cold, and binding them in uncomfortable positions. The more stressful techniques must be approved by senior commanders, but all are permitted. And nearly all are being used, according to testimony taken by Human Rights Watch from post-Sept. 11 detainees released from U.S. custody.
None of these techniques is legal. Treaties ratified by the United States, including the Geneva Conventions and the U.N. Convention Against Torture, prohibit not only torture but also "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment." In ratifying the Convention Against Torture, the U.S. government interpreted this provision to prohibit the same practices as those proscribed by the U.S. Constitution. The Bush administration reiterated that understanding last June.
<snip>
But can't torture at least be used on someone who might know of an imminent terrorist act? Not without opening the door to pervasive torture. The problem with this "ticking bomb" scenario is that it is infinitely elastic. Why stop with the terrorist suspect himself? Why not torture his neighbor or friend who might know something about an attack? And why stop with an imminent attack? Aren't the potential victims of possible future attacks just as worthy of protection by torture? The slope is very slippery.
<end quote>
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #42 on: 2004-05-23 15:28:53 » |
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rhinoceros
Sent: 23 May 2004 07:28 PM
<snip>
But can't torture at least be used on someone who might know of an imminent
terrorist act? Not without opening the door to pervasive torture. The
problem with this "ticking bomb" scenario is that it is infinitely elastic.
Why stop with the terrorist suspect himself? Why not torture his neighbor or
friend who might know something about an attack? And why stop with an
imminent attack? Aren't the potential victims of possible future attacks
just as worthy of protection by torture? The slope is very slippery.
<end quote>
----
[Blunderov] Quite an important point. Recently I came across an interesting
example of logical chicanery that bears a haunting resemblance to some
evangelical rhetoric that I have heard sometimes.
It goes "If you had to torture 10 people in order to save a life, would
you?"
It attempts to establish the proposition that a certain amount of wrong can
be equal to a certain amount of right.
The trouble is if you answer yes to the question, you would also have to
answer yes to the question 'If you had to torture everyone on the planet in
order to save a life, would you?' in order not to be self-contradictory.
(The criteria are not quantifiable in any way that is not entirely
arbitrary.)
So really the question amounts to "Do you believe in torture or not?"
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