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JD
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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #15 on: 2004-05-18 10:07:41 »
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The problem is they *are* insurgents, being as they are an irregular armed
force that fights a stronger force by sabotage and harassment. Some of the
people trying to destroy the US efforts have also resorted to terror tactics
making them terrorists unless you are somehow claiming that car bombs
outside mosques and buses full of burning schoolchildren are somehow NOT
terrorism.

Also many the fighters are foreigners - mostly Iranian and Syrian - not
Iraqis at all.

Regards

Jonathan



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Erik Aronesty
Sent: 18 May 2004 13:48
To: Church of Virus
Subject: Re: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.

<Jonathan Davis>

Skipping over your arguments to an important point:

Can we, at COV, agree to stop using the word "insurgents" or "rebels" or
"terrorists" to describe the people in Iraq that are fighting the US.

I mean, clearly they have been living there longer than we have.

"Iraqi fighters", "Iraqi natives", or "Iraqi defenders" might be
appropriate, but not "Iraqi insurgents"

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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #16 on: 2004-05-18 10:07:55 »
Reply with quote

Jonathan Davis
Sent: 18 May 2004 01:31 PM

Oh no! Does this mean that they will lose the "protections" of having their
captives beheaded, enemy combatants disguised as civilians, the enemy firing
from holy places and the enemy using false surrender to launch attacks? Now
I pity them!

Of course I am just gently ribbing you B, but there is a serious point here.


Firstly in this war they have never been protected by the conventions anyway
because the enemy simply did not operate under their constrictions. White
flags used as tactical ruses and the beating (and murder) of captives was
and is routine. These breaches have not been disavowed by the enemy
leadership nor were they exceptional. This cannot be said of the US breaches
which have been exposed, denounced and the miscreants are in the process of
being punished. The USA is a signatory of the conventions and overwhelmingly
accepts and applies the provisions of those conventions.

Can anyone show me where the current Insurgents have signed up? Can anyone
show me where they have ever respected these conventions?

Seems to me a bit like saying to a guy obeying Queensbury rules in a boxing
match "Uh oh, one of your punches landed low, your opponents gloves are
coming off!" whilst his opponent has been wearing knuckdusters and kicking
for the groin all along.

[Blunderov] What I had more in mind was any future opponent - say Iran or
North Korea, who knows, maybe one day even China.

In the future, anyone can claim that the USA considers the Geneva convention
'obsolete' and 'quaint' and does not therefore qualify for its protections.
Or that their forces are de facto terrorists.

The British AFIK have been very quiet on the subject of the Geneva
Convention but then I think they might be signatories to the International
Criminal Court. Either that or it's English circumspection.

Best Regards


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Re: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #17 on: 2004-05-18 11:48:18 »
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: [Blunderov] What I had more in
: mind was any future opponent
: say Iran or North Korea, who
: knows, maybe one day even China.

If you know anything about memetics, you know that prophecy is self-fulfilling.

Do you want to create that reality, Blunderov?

Watch your words, and watch the world you are creating with them.
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Re: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #18 on: 2004-05-18 11:51:32 »
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So, the definition of “insurgents” are “a smaller force” that need to use “sabotage and harassment” in order to survive.

If they were a larger force, would they still be insurgents?

If they were more well-armed, so that they could fight conventionally, would they be insurgents?
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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #19 on: 2004-05-18 12:07:10 »
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I am not sure if they are or are not signatories, but regardless the US is
compelled to obey the rules as long as the other side does too - signatory
or not.

I think the quaintness and obsolescence is brought about by the fact that
interstate warfare is now less common whilst a whole new type of asymmetric
fighting is emergent.

The Geneva conventions by their very nature are agreements between countries
(which seldom fight anymore) whereas modern wars are increasingly civil or
guerrilla type wars. Here you often have a non-state actor against a
state-actor with the state-actor showing restraint in the face of
non-restraint where such restraint not always rational.

It is for this reason that I think they may need to be updated to reflect
modern reality and modern warfare. I fully support the Geneva Conventions
and similar efforts to attenuate the horror of war.  But if they are struck
irrelevant and abandoned because off change circumstances it would be a
greater pity than if they were to be realistically reappraised and their
place in modern war assured. One immediate reform could be to make explicit
its moral authority vis-à-vis Islamic rules of war that accord with the
conventions.

Regards

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Blunderov
Sent: 18 May 2004 15:08
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.

SNIP

[Blunderov] What I had more in mind was any future opponent - say Iran or
North Korea, who knows, maybe one day even China.

In the future, anyone can claim that the USA considers the Geneva convention
'obsolete' and 'quaint' and does not therefore qualify for its protections.
Or that their forces are de facto terrorists.

The British AFIK have been very quiet on the subject of the Geneva
Convention but then I think they might be signatories to the International
Criminal Court. Either that or it's English circumspection.

Best Regards


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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #20 on: 2004-05-18 13:12:36 »
Reply with quote

Erik Aronesty
Sent: 18 May 2004 05:48 PM

: [Blunderov] What I had more in
: mind was any future opponent
: say Iran or North Korea, who
: knows, maybe one day even China.

If you know anything about memetics, you know that prophecy is
self-fulfilling.

Do you want to create that reality, Blunderov?

Watch your words, and watch the world you are creating with them.
---
[Blunderov] Certainly I don't wish to create it. But Iran and North Korea
are possible flash points.

If I recall correctly, the USA has a defense treaty with Taiwan and there is
the potential for confrontation there, however slight that may appear for
now. (This might become less slight if China somehow gets the idea that the
USA is capricious about meeting inconvenient treaty commitments.)

Best Regards.


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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #21 on: 2004-05-18 13:29:25 »
Reply with quote

Jonathan Davis
Sent: 18 May 2004 06:07 PM

I am not sure if they are or are not signatories, but regardless the US is
compelled to obey the rules as long as the other side does too - signatory
or not.

I think the quaintness and obsolescence is brought about by the fact that
interstate warfare is now less common whilst a whole new type of asymmetric
fighting is emergent.

The Geneva conventions by their very nature are agreements between countries
(which seldom fight anymore) whereas modern wars are increasingly civil or
guerrilla type wars. Here you often have a non-state actor against a
state-actor with the state-actor showing restraint in the face of
non-restraint where such restraint not always rational.

It is for this reason that I think they may need to be updated to reflect
modern reality and modern warfare. I fully support the Geneva Conventions
and similar efforts to attenuate the horror of war.  But if they are struck
irrelevant and abandoned because off change circumstances it would be a
greater pity than if they were to be realistically reappraised and their
place in modern war assured. One immediate reform could be to make explicit
its moral authority vis-à-vis Islamic rules of war that accord with the
conventions.

[Blunderov] There is a very nice historical overview of the rules of war at

http://gi.grolier.com/wwii/wwii_warcrimes.html

<excerpt>
There are at least four compelling reasons for the existence of rules of
war. First, every belligerent has a selfish interest not to provoke
reprisals from the enemy, and not to provoke neutrals to join the enemy.
Second, wars, however bitter, are to usher in a new era of peace. Hence,
reconciliation should not be made too difficult: yesterday's enemy may be
needed as a friend tomorrow. Third, nations do not wish their armed forces
to "get out of hand; for, as history has also shown, they may otherwise
easily turn against their own government and conationals. Last, but not
least, war has always been decried, for humanitarian and many other reasons;
if wars cannot be prevented their cruelty and destructiveness must at least
be limited, for the purpose of sheer self-preservation. For all of these
reasons, the law of war is the oldest and one of the most important parts of
international law. Especially since the Middle Ages, the rules of war--as
well as the conditions under which it is lawful to start a war--have greatly
occupied the attention of governments, jurists, and, indeed, military men...

Since the rules of war are part of international law, no nation can
one-sidedly change them. No legislature or government or general can decree
that something which is a war crime is permitted to their own forces...

</excerpt>
Best Regards

PS. Completely unrelated but my vote for quote of the day goes to Rhinoceros
for the phrase 'cremation is still under fire'. ROFL.


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Re: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #22 on: 2004-05-18 14:57:59 »
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[Blunderov] Certainly I don't wish to create it. But Iran and North Korea
are possible flash points.

<Erik>
There you are, doing it again.  Sheesh. 

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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #23 on: 2004-05-18 22:44:49 »
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[[ author reputation (1.72) beneath threshold (3)... display message ]]

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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #24 on: 2004-05-19 04:15:00 »
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Quote from: Jonathan Davis on 2004-05-18 07:30:48   


Firstly in this war they have never been protected by the conventions anyway
because the enemy simply did not operate under their constrictions.

I dont understand why you are labelling the American troops as terrorists. Granted that they are kinda pushing the boundries of decency and humanity, but that doesnt mean that they cannot learn!!

[JD]White flags used as tactical ruses and the beating (and murder) of captives was and is routine. These breaches have not been disavowed by the enemy
leadership nor were they exceptional.

[Mermaid]Thats right! Misuse the White flag and have a wire stuck up your testicles!!

[JD]This cannot be said of the US breaches which have been exposed, denounced and the miscreants are in the process of
being punished.

[Mermaid]Punished by those who exposed the 'breaches'? Or punished by the miscreant themself? e.g. jerry sivets get one year in prison for taking the pictures of the most famous prisoner abuse case(many have gone unreported in popular media) and for repeating under orders that the abuse was not conducted with full military permission, if not instructions.

[JD]Can anyone show me where the current Insurgents have signed up? Can anyone show me where they have ever respected these conventions?

[Mermaid]Imagine a burglar breaks into your house, steals all your stuff, tries to kill you, rape your wife and daughters, passes electricity through your penis and screams bloody murder when you hit him with a stick. His accomplice mumbles that you are not acting acc to the law.
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My point is ...

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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #25 on: 2004-05-19 08:38:43 »
Reply with quote

[Joe Dees]
Sly Sy at it Again
Joel Mowbray
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/joelmowbray/jm20040518.shtml

Reading the "hot" new New Yorker "expose" ,which has the rest of the media in a tizzy, and has many Democrats even hungrier for Rumsfeld's resignation, can lead one to believe that the Defense Secretary had a hand in the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal.

Reading it more closely, however, leads one to realize that Rumsfeld knew, well, nothing.

Reading it with the author's credibility problems in mind, and the Pentagon's seemingly obligatory denials seem more credible.
<snip>


[rhinoceros]
I found the New Yorker article. It hadn't the media here in a tizzy, you see.

The Gray Zone
http://www.newyorker.com/printable/?fact/040524fa_fact

Do you suggest I do not chek the author's argument because of his credibility problems you mentioned?

By the way, Salon run a similar story.

How high does it go?
The more we find out about what happened at Abu Ghraib, the less it looks like a case of renegade soldiers.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/05/18/chain/index.html
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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #26 on: 2004-05-19 20:18:27 »
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Mermaid
Sent: 19 May 2004 09:15
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.


[quote from: Jonathan on 2004-05-18 at 05:30:48]

Firstly in this war they have never been protected by the conventions anyway
because the enemy simply did not operate under their constrictions.

I dont understand why you are labelling the American troops as terrorists.
Granted that they are kinda pushing the boundries of decency and humanity,
but that doesnt mean that they cannot learn!!

[JD]White flags used as tactical ruses and the beating (and murder) of
captives was and is routine. These breaches have not been disavowed by the
enemy leadership nor were they exceptional.

[Mermaid]Thats right! Misuse the White flag and have a wire stuck up your
testicles!!

[JD 2] Yes. You can lose the protections of the conventions if you breach
them. I do not think anyone was getting their balls shocked by US troops. It
appears they were getting threatened with torture & roughed up, not directly
tortured.

[JD]This cannot be said of the US breaches which have been exposed,
denounced and the miscreants are in the process of being punished.

[Mermaid]Punished by those who exposed the 'breaches'? Or punished by the
miscreant themself? e.g. jerry sivets get one year in prison for taking the
pictures of the most famous prisoner abuse case(many have gone unreported in
popular media) and for repeating under orders that the abuse was not
conducted with full military permission, if not instructions.

[JD 2] Wrongdoing punished with the intention of preventing it happening
again. 

[JD]Can anyone show me where the current Insurgents have signed up? Can
anyone show me where they have ever respected these conventions?

[Mermaid]Imagine a burglar breaks into your house, steals all your stuff,
tries to kill you, rape your wife and daughters, passes electricity through
your penis and screams bloody murder when you hit him with a stick. His
accomplice mumbles that you are not acting acc to the law.

[JD 2] And the awards for purple prose and false analogy go
to....MERMAID!!!!! Given what I wrote in the "Rumsfeld Wiggle" thread, is
this not plagiarism?

"Seems to me a bit like saying to a guy obeying Queensbury rules in a boxing
match "Uh oh, one of your punches landed low, your opponents gloves are
coming off!" whilst his opponent has been wearing knuckdusters and kicking
for the groin all along."

Flattery or tactical reflection or great minds thinking alike (albeit from
opposite sides of this issue)?

Regards

JD

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Re: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #27 on: 2004-05-19 22:44:43 »
Reply with quote

Those who are ill-equipped to fight conventionally must resort to unconventional warfare.  Just like we did in the revolutionary war.

Those who are native to the country can easily claim moral high ground. 


-----Original Message-----
From: "Jonathan Davis" <jonathan.davis@lineone.net>
Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 01:18:27
To:<virus@lucifer.com>
Subject: RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Mermaid
Sent: 19 May 2004 09:15
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.


[quote from: Jonathan on 2004-05-18 at 05:30:48]

Firstly in this war they have never been protected by the conventions anyway
because the enemy simply did not operate under their constrictions.

I dont understand why you are labelling the American troops as terrorists.
Granted that they are kinda pushing the boundries of decency and humanity,
but that doesnt mean that they cannot learn!!

[JD]White flags used as tactical ruses and the beating (and murder) of
captives was and is routine. These breaches have not been disavowed by the
enemy leadership nor were they exceptional.

[Mermaid]Thats right! Misuse the White flag and have a wire stuck up your
testicles!!

[JD 2] Yes. You can lose the protections of the conventions if you breach
them. I do not think anyone was getting their balls shocked by US troops. It
appears they were getting threatened with torture & roughed up, not directly
tortured.

[JD]This cannot be said of the US breaches which have been exposed,
denounced and the miscreants are in the process of being punished.

[Mermaid]Punished by those who exposed the 'breaches'? Or punished by the
miscreant themself? e.g. jerry sivets get one year in prison for taking the
pictures of the most famous prisoner abuse case(many have gone unreported in
popular media) and for repeating under orders that the abuse was not
conducted with full military permission, if not instructions.

[JD 2] Wrongdoing punished with the intention of preventing it happening
again. 

[JD]Can anyone show me where the current Insurgents have signed up? Can
anyone show me where they have ever respected these conventions?

[Mermaid]Imagine a burglar breaks into your house, steals all your stuff,
tries to kill you, rape your wife and daughters, passes electricity through
your penis and screams bloody murder when you hit him with a stick. His
accomplice mumbles that you are not acting acc to the law.

[JD 2] And the awards for purple prose and false analogy go
to....MERMAID!!!!! Given what I wrote in the "Rumsfeld Wiggle" thread, is
this not plagiarism?

"Seems to me a bit like saying to a guy obeying Queensbury rules in a boxing
match "Uh oh, one of your punches landed low, your opponents gloves are
coming off!" whilst his opponent has been wearing knuckdusters and kicking
for the groin all along."

Flattery or tactical reflection or great minds thinking alike (albeit from
opposite sides of this issue)?

Regards

JD

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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #28 on: 2004-05-20 18:01:55 »
Reply with quote

[[ author reputation (1.72) beneath threshold (3)... display message ]]

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RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #29 on: 2004-05-22 15:33:35 »
Reply with quote

[Blunderov] Even more visual horror is leaking out of the Abu Ghraib prison
and evidence is beginning to accumulate that Rumsfeld's hands are not clean.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=523724
<excerpt>
Compelling evidence is emerging that responsibility for the abuse goes right
to the Pentagon, where an ultra-secret "black operation" was set up to run
the interrogation process. This unit, under the direction of Stephen
Cambone, under-secretary of defence for intelligence, reportedly used
theories developed by an academic to guide the torture of the detainees.

The book, The Arab Mind by the late cultural anthropologist Raphael Patai,
includes a 25-page chapter on Arabs and sex, stating that the biggest
weakness of Arabs is shame and humiliation. Patai's book was described by
The New Yorker's Seymour Hersh as providing an intellectual and practical
underpinning of the culture of torture at Abu Ghraib.
</excerpt>
<excerpt>
Mr Rumsfeld is fighting for his political life. The New Yorker report
suggests he approved the covert operation, to which he appointed Dr Cambone
as leader in order to obtain fast, "actionable" intelligence in pursuit of
Mr Bush's "war on terror". The pressure to obtain this information - and the
increasingly important role of the army's military intelligence soldiers and
civilian interrogators - grew as the Iraqi insurgency against US forces
developed.
</excerpt>

All that aside, something else is puzzling me. The sheer volume of material
emerging from Abu Ghraib. I have read accounts of 1800 images and videos
besides. In 3 or 4 months? The only thing that I can think of to account for
this is that perhaps these materials were used to intimidate other
prisoners.

(Either that or some sort of virulent photographic meme ran like wildfire
through the guards which seems, well, unlikely.)

I wondered whether perhaps I had underestimated the volume of material that
digital technology makes possible but if I understand matters aright, all
these images, or at least most of them, are of seperate incidents.

And the cameras seem always to have been there to record them.

Thoughts? Links? What am I missing here?

Best Regards.







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