RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #15 on: 2004-05-18 10:07:41 »
The problem is they *are* insurgents, being as they are an irregular armed force that fights a stronger force by sabotage and harassment. Some of the people trying to destroy the US efforts have also resorted to terror tactics making them terrorists unless you are somehow claiming that car bombs outside mosques and buses full of burning schoolchildren are somehow NOT terrorism.
Also many the fighters are foreigners - mostly Iranian and Syrian - not Iraqis at all.
Regards
Jonathan
-----Original Message----- From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of Erik Aronesty Sent: 18 May 2004 13:48 To: Church of Virus Subject: Re: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
<Jonathan Davis>
Skipping over your arguments to an important point:
Can we, at COV, agree to stop using the word "insurgents" or "rebels" or "terrorists" to describe the people in Iraq that are fighting the US.
I mean, clearly they have been living there longer than we have.
"Iraqi fighters", "Iraqi natives", or "Iraqi defenders" might be appropriate, but not "Iraqi insurgents"
"We think in generalities, we live in details"
RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #16 on: 2004-05-18 10:07:55 »
Jonathan Davis Sent: 18 May 2004 01:31 PM
Oh no! Does this mean that they will lose the "protections" of having their captives beheaded, enemy combatants disguised as civilians, the enemy firing from holy places and the enemy using false surrender to launch attacks? Now I pity them!
Of course I am just gently ribbing you B, but there is a serious point here.
Firstly in this war they have never been protected by the conventions anyway because the enemy simply did not operate under their constrictions. White flags used as tactical ruses and the beating (and murder) of captives was and is routine. These breaches have not been disavowed by the enemy leadership nor were they exceptional. This cannot be said of the US breaches which have been exposed, denounced and the miscreants are in the process of being punished. The USA is a signatory of the conventions and overwhelmingly accepts and applies the provisions of those conventions.
Can anyone show me where the current Insurgents have signed up? Can anyone show me where they have ever respected these conventions?
Seems to me a bit like saying to a guy obeying Queensbury rules in a boxing match "Uh oh, one of your punches landed low, your opponents gloves are coming off!" whilst his opponent has been wearing knuckdusters and kicking for the groin all along.
[Blunderov] What I had more in mind was any future opponent - say Iran or North Korea, who knows, maybe one day even China.
In the future, anyone can claim that the USA considers the Geneva convention 'obsolete' and 'quaint' and does not therefore qualify for its protections. Or that their forces are de facto terrorists.
The British AFIK have been very quiet on the subject of the Geneva Convention but then I think they might be signatories to the International Criminal Court. Either that or it's English circumspection.
Re: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #18 on: 2004-05-18 11:51:32 »
So, the definition of “insurgents” are “a smaller force” that need to use “sabotage and harassment” in order to survive.
If they were a larger force, would they still be insurgents?
If they were more well-armed, so that they could fight conventionally, would they be insurgents? --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #19 on: 2004-05-18 12:07:10 »
I am not sure if they are or are not signatories, but regardless the US is compelled to obey the rules as long as the other side does too - signatory or not.
I think the quaintness and obsolescence is brought about by the fact that interstate warfare is now less common whilst a whole new type of asymmetric fighting is emergent.
The Geneva conventions by their very nature are agreements between countries (which seldom fight anymore) whereas modern wars are increasingly civil or guerrilla type wars. Here you often have a non-state actor against a state-actor with the state-actor showing restraint in the face of non-restraint where such restraint not always rational.
It is for this reason that I think they may need to be updated to reflect modern reality and modern warfare. I fully support the Geneva Conventions and similar efforts to attenuate the horror of war. But if they are struck irrelevant and abandoned because off change circumstances it would be a greater pity than if they were to be realistically reappraised and their place in modern war assured. One immediate reform could be to make explicit its moral authority vis-à-vis Islamic rules of war that accord with the conventions.
[Blunderov] What I had more in mind was any future opponent - say Iran or North Korea, who knows, maybe one day even China.
In the future, anyone can claim that the USA considers the Geneva convention 'obsolete' and 'quaint' and does not therefore qualify for its protections. Or that their forces are de facto terrorists.
The British AFIK have been very quiet on the subject of the Geneva Convention but then I think they might be signatories to the International Criminal Court. Either that or it's English circumspection.
"We think in generalities, we live in details"
RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #20 on: 2004-05-18 13:12:36 »
Erik Aronesty Sent: 18 May 2004 05:48 PM
: [Blunderov] What I had more in : mind was any future opponent : say Iran or North Korea, who : knows, maybe one day even China.
If you know anything about memetics, you know that prophecy is self-fulfilling.
Do you want to create that reality, Blunderov?
Watch your words, and watch the world you are creating with them. --- [Blunderov] Certainly I don't wish to create it. But Iran and North Korea are possible flash points.
If I recall correctly, the USA has a defense treaty with Taiwan and there is the potential for confrontation there, however slight that may appear for now. (This might become less slight if China somehow gets the idea that the USA is capricious about meeting inconvenient treaty commitments.)
"We think in generalities, we live in details"
RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #21 on: 2004-05-18 13:29:25 »
Jonathan Davis Sent: 18 May 2004 06:07 PM
I am not sure if they are or are not signatories, but regardless the US is compelled to obey the rules as long as the other side does too - signatory or not.
I think the quaintness and obsolescence is brought about by the fact that interstate warfare is now less common whilst a whole new type of asymmetric fighting is emergent.
The Geneva conventions by their very nature are agreements between countries (which seldom fight anymore) whereas modern wars are increasingly civil or guerrilla type wars. Here you often have a non-state actor against a state-actor with the state-actor showing restraint in the face of non-restraint where such restraint not always rational.
It is for this reason that I think they may need to be updated to reflect modern reality and modern warfare. I fully support the Geneva Conventions and similar efforts to attenuate the horror of war. But if they are struck irrelevant and abandoned because off change circumstances it would be a greater pity than if they were to be realistically reappraised and their place in modern war assured. One immediate reform could be to make explicit its moral authority vis-à-vis Islamic rules of war that accord with the conventions.
[Blunderov] There is a very nice historical overview of the rules of war at
<excerpt> There are at least four compelling reasons for the existence of rules of war. First, every belligerent has a selfish interest not to provoke reprisals from the enemy, and not to provoke neutrals to join the enemy. Second, wars, however bitter, are to usher in a new era of peace. Hence, reconciliation should not be made too difficult: yesterday's enemy may be needed as a friend tomorrow. Third, nations do not wish their armed forces to "get out of hand; for, as history has also shown, they may otherwise easily turn against their own government and conationals. Last, but not least, war has always been decried, for humanitarian and many other reasons; if wars cannot be prevented their cruelty and destructiveness must at least be limited, for the purpose of sheer self-preservation. For all of these reasons, the law of war is the oldest and one of the most important parts of international law. Especially since the Middle Ages, the rules of war--as well as the conditions under which it is lawful to start a war--have greatly occupied the attention of governments, jurists, and, indeed, military men...
Since the rules of war are part of international law, no nation can one-sidedly change them. No legislature or government or general can decree that something which is a war crime is permitted to their own forces...
</excerpt> Best Regards
PS. Completely unrelated but my vote for quote of the day goes to Rhinoceros for the phrase 'cremation is still under fire'. ROFL.
Reading the "hot" new New Yorker "expose" ,which has the rest of the media in a tizzy, and has many Democrats even hungrier for Rumsfeld's resignation, can lead one to believe that the Defense Secretary had a hand in the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal.
Reading it more closely, however, leads one to realize that Rumsfeld knew, well, nothing.
Reading it with the author's credibility problems in mind, and the Pentagon's seemingly obligatory denials seem more credible. Investigative reporter Seymour Hersh has been a trailblazer on the Abu Ghraib scandal, breaking numerous stories. And his latest has tongues in Washington wagging.
In a piece titled "The Gray Zone," Hersh lays the blame for the scandal at the feet of Rumsfeld, who, Hersh writes, expanded a secret operations unit into Iraq. In the second sentence of the lead paragraph, Hersh leaves little doubt as to his personal conclusions: "Rumsfeld's decision embittered the American intelligence community, damaged the effectiveness of élite combat units, and hurt America's prospects in the war on terror."
The article is quite damning, that is, until the reader gets to the obligatory disclaimer.
Buried 3,300 words inside a roughly 4,500-word article is the following exoneration: "Rumsfeld may not be personally culpable." And further down near the end was another: "The former intelligence official made it clear that he was not alleging that Rumsfeld or General Myers knew that atrocities were committed."
In Hersh's line of work, opinion-based reporting, he is absolutely within bounds to attack Rumsfeld with as much tenacity as any rabidly partisan Democrat. But the problem is the treatment then given by the rest of the media.
When mainstream news outlets, such as the Associated Press, reported on Hersh's latest piece, there was nary a mention of Hersh's left-leaning bias.
Even more troubling is that there are more than 25 quotes attributed to "former intelligence officials" and only five to current officials anywhere in government. And all, save for one public official, are anonymous. Current officials deserve the cloak of anonymity, particularly when revealing information the public has a right to know and the act itself could cost the person's job. But what is the rationale for keeping nameless all the "former" officials? There are no jobs on the line, and "former" officials are routinely quoted on the record in most outlets. Does Hersh think this adds a layer of intrigue if names aren't there to clutter up a good story?
Most important, how can others judge the credibility of nameless individuals who could be doing nothing more than settling old scores? Readers, and the media at large, would also be wise to consider Hersh's credibility in past stories. While much of what he has written has been well-researched and true, he has not been without substantial error.
In November 2001, Hersh penned a New Yorker piece that portrayed a Pentagon mission to strike Mullah Omar in Afghanistan as a "near-disaster," completely contrary to the official line. (An excellent Slate article by former Naval intelligence officer Scott Shuger found multiple flaws in Hersh's reporting.)
One "fact" from the story that numerous conservative publications, from National Review to Washington Times, were quick to expose was one that even a junior New Yorker fact checker should have caught: "The mission was initiated by sixteen AC-130 gunships, which poured thousands of rounds into the surrounding area but deliberately left the Mullah's house unscathed."
There almost certainly could not have been 16 AC-130 gunships in one battle; the military has a worldwide total fleet of 21. In that November 2001 piece, the muckraker painted a bleak picture, leading the casual reader to believe that the U.S. might lose the campaign. The Taliban was toppled the next month.
And in April 2003, Hersh attacked the military capabilities of ground forces in Iraq (blaming, guess who, Rumsfeld). A week and a half later, Saddam's regime was no more.
Perhaps not surprisingly, the Pentagon has vehemently denied the allegations made in Hersh's article. Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita issued a statement calling the claims "outlandish, conspiratorial, and filled with error and anonymous conjecture."
Maybe Hersh's piece has quite a bit of truth in it. Even so, the worst that the article actually alleges (meaning with facts) is that Rumsfeld expanded a program that, unbeknownst to him, spiraled out of control. But with the nameless sourcing, apparently needlessly in most of the cases, determining the accuracy of Hersh's reporting becomes an essentially impossible task.
Let's hope that's not why he used almost solely anonymous sources.
Firstly in this war they have never been protected by the conventions anyway because the enemy simply did not operate under their constrictions.
I dont understand why you are labelling the American troops as terrorists. Granted that they are kinda pushing the boundries of decency and humanity, but that doesnt mean that they cannot learn!!
[JD]White flags used as tactical ruses and the beating (and murder) of captives was and is routine. These breaches have not been disavowed by the enemy leadership nor were they exceptional.
[Mermaid]Thats right! Misuse the White flag and have a wire stuck up your testicles!!
[JD]This cannot be said of the US breaches which have been exposed, denounced and the miscreants are in the process of being punished.
[Mermaid]Punished by those who exposed the 'breaches'? Or punished by the miscreant themself? e.g. jerry sivets get one year in prison for taking the pictures of the most famous prisoner abuse case(many have gone unreported in popular media) and for repeating under orders that the abuse was not conducted with full military permission, if not instructions.
[JD]Can anyone show me where the current Insurgents have signed up? Can anyone show me where they have ever respected these conventions?
[Mermaid]Imagine a burglar breaks into your house, steals all your stuff, tries to kill you, rape your wife and daughters, passes electricity through your penis and screams bloody murder when you hit him with a stick. His accomplice mumbles that you are not acting acc to the law.
Reading the "hot" new New Yorker "expose" ,which has the rest of the media in a tizzy, and has many Democrats even hungrier for Rumsfeld's resignation, can lead one to believe that the Defense Secretary had a hand in the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal.
Reading it more closely, however, leads one to realize that Rumsfeld knew, well, nothing.
Reading it with the author's credibility problems in mind, and the Pentagon's seemingly obligatory denials seem more credible. <snip>
[rhinoceros] I found the New Yorker article. It hadn't the media here in a tizzy, you see.
Firstly in this war they have never been protected by the conventions anyway because the enemy simply did not operate under their constrictions.
I dont understand why you are labelling the American troops as terrorists. Granted that they are kinda pushing the boundries of decency and humanity, but that doesnt mean that they cannot learn!!
[JD]White flags used as tactical ruses and the beating (and murder) of captives was and is routine. These breaches have not been disavowed by the enemy leadership nor were they exceptional.
[Mermaid]Thats right! Misuse the White flag and have a wire stuck up your testicles!!
[JD 2] Yes. You can lose the protections of the conventions if you breach them. I do not think anyone was getting their balls shocked by US troops. It appears they were getting threatened with torture & roughed up, not directly tortured.
[JD]This cannot be said of the US breaches which have been exposed, denounced and the miscreants are in the process of being punished.
[Mermaid]Punished by those who exposed the 'breaches'? Or punished by the miscreant themself? e.g. jerry sivets get one year in prison for taking the pictures of the most famous prisoner abuse case(many have gone unreported in popular media) and for repeating under orders that the abuse was not conducted with full military permission, if not instructions.
[JD 2] Wrongdoing punished with the intention of preventing it happening again.
[JD]Can anyone show me where the current Insurgents have signed up? Can anyone show me where they have ever respected these conventions?
[Mermaid]Imagine a burglar breaks into your house, steals all your stuff, tries to kill you, rape your wife and daughters, passes electricity through your penis and screams bloody murder when you hit him with a stick. His accomplice mumbles that you are not acting acc to the law.
[JD 2] And the awards for purple prose and false analogy go to....MERMAID!!!!! Given what I wrote in the "Rumsfeld Wiggle" thread, is this not plagiarism?
"Seems to me a bit like saying to a guy obeying Queensbury rules in a boxing match "Uh oh, one of your punches landed low, your opponents gloves are coming off!" whilst his opponent has been wearing knuckdusters and kicking for the groin all along."
Flattery or tactical reflection or great minds thinking alike (albeit from opposite sides of this issue)?
Firstly in this war they have never been protected by the conventions anyway because the enemy simply did not operate under their constrictions.
I dont understand why you are labelling the American troops as terrorists. Granted that they are kinda pushing the boundries of decency and humanity, but that doesnt mean that they cannot learn!!
[JD]White flags used as tactical ruses and the beating (and murder) of captives was and is routine. These breaches have not been disavowed by the enemy leadership nor were they exceptional.
[Mermaid]Thats right! Misuse the White flag and have a wire stuck up your testicles!!
[JD 2] Yes. You can lose the protections of the conventions if you breach them. I do not think anyone was getting their balls shocked by US troops. It appears they were getting threatened with torture & roughed up, not directly tortured.
[JD]This cannot be said of the US breaches which have been exposed, denounced and the miscreants are in the process of being punished.
[Mermaid]Punished by those who exposed the 'breaches'? Or punished by the miscreant themself? e.g. jerry sivets get one year in prison for taking the pictures of the most famous prisoner abuse case(many have gone unreported in popular media) and for repeating under orders that the abuse was not conducted with full military permission, if not instructions.
[JD 2] Wrongdoing punished with the intention of preventing it happening again.
[JD]Can anyone show me where the current Insurgents have signed up? Can anyone show me where they have ever respected these conventions?
[Mermaid]Imagine a burglar breaks into your house, steals all your stuff, tries to kill you, rape your wife and daughters, passes electricity through your penis and screams bloody murder when you hit him with a stick. His accomplice mumbles that you are not acting acc to the law.
[JD 2] And the awards for purple prose and false analogy go to....MERMAID!!!!! Given what I wrote in the "Rumsfeld Wiggle" thread, is this not plagiarism?
"Seems to me a bit like saying to a guy obeying Queensbury rules in a boxing match "Uh oh, one of your punches landed low, your opponents gloves are coming off!" whilst his opponent has been wearing knuckdusters and kicking for the groin all along."
Flattery or tactical reflection or great minds thinking alike (albeit from opposite sides of this issue)?
"We think in generalities, we live in details"
RE: virus: The Rumsfeld wriggle.
« Reply #29 on: 2004-05-22 15:33:35 »
[Blunderov] Even more visual horror is leaking out of the Abu Ghraib prison and evidence is beginning to accumulate that Rumsfeld's hands are not clean.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=523724 <excerpt> Compelling evidence is emerging that responsibility for the abuse goes right to the Pentagon, where an ultra-secret "black operation" was set up to run the interrogation process. This unit, under the direction of Stephen Cambone, under-secretary of defence for intelligence, reportedly used theories developed by an academic to guide the torture of the detainees.
The book, The Arab Mind by the late cultural anthropologist Raphael Patai, includes a 25-page chapter on Arabs and sex, stating that the biggest weakness of Arabs is shame and humiliation. Patai's book was described by The New Yorker's Seymour Hersh as providing an intellectual and practical underpinning of the culture of torture at Abu Ghraib. </excerpt> <excerpt> Mr Rumsfeld is fighting for his political life. The New Yorker report suggests he approved the covert operation, to which he appointed Dr Cambone as leader in order to obtain fast, "actionable" intelligence in pursuit of Mr Bush's "war on terror". The pressure to obtain this information - and the increasingly important role of the army's military intelligence soldiers and civilian interrogators - grew as the Iraqi insurgency against US forces developed. </excerpt>
All that aside, something else is puzzling me. The sheer volume of material emerging from Abu Ghraib. I have read accounts of 1800 images and videos besides. In 3 or 4 months? The only thing that I can think of to account for this is that perhaps these materials were used to intimidate other prisoners.
(Either that or some sort of virulent photographic meme ran like wildfire through the guards which seems, well, unlikely.)
I wondered whether perhaps I had underestimated the volume of material that digital technology makes possible but if I understand matters aright, all these images, or at least most of them, are of seperate incidents.
And the cameras seem always to have been there to record them.