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rhinoceros
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My point is ...
  
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EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
« on: 2004-04-04 16:52:41 » |
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You've probably heard about the 500 million euros fine to Microsoft by the European Union competition commissioner and the reactions across the pond.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/microsoft/Story/0,2763,1178459,00.html
I couldn't resist looking up the full press release of Bill Frist, Senate Majority Leader. This type is improbable! After giving a free lecture on economics and the European "stagnation" as opposed to the USA prosperity, he goes on to advice:
http://frist.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=1599
<snip>
This preposterous demand, by a foreign government, will hurt one of America’s most successful companies and harm the hundreds of American IT companies that rely on the multimedia functionality in Windows to offer their own innovative products and services – companies that are responsible for thousands of high-paying American jobs. As the New York Times noted in an editorial last Saturday (March 20), the Commission’s demands ‘would threaten Microsoft’s business model and, more important, harm consumers. The very definition of a computer operating system would essentially be frozen where it is today.’
“In imposing this anti-consumer, anti-innovation penalty, the Commission has blatantly undercut the settlement that was so carefully and painstakingly crafted with Microsoft by the U.S. Department of Justice and several state antitrust authorities. There can be no question that the U.S. Government was entitled to take the lead in this matter – Microsoft is a U.S. company, many if not all of the complaining companies in the EU case are American, and all of the relevant design decisions took place here. Had the Commission been cognizant of America’s legitimate interests in this matter, it would have acted in a manner that complemented the U.S. settlement. Needless to say, the Commission instead selected a path that places its resolution of this case in direct conflict with ours – and threatens the vitality of America’s IT industry in the process.
“The Commission’s complete indifference to the negative impact of its ruling on American jobs, American consumers, and the U.S. economy – and its total disregard of the Department of Justice – are intolerable.
“The European Commission has, of course, on many occasions paid lip service to the importance of international coordination in the area of competition, and on the need for other countries to be sensitive to extraterritorial effects of their antitrust rulings. But actions speak louder than words, and with the Microsoft ruling the Commission appears intent on saying that it considers the Department of Justice, the U.S. courts, and principles of open and fair international trade largely irrelevant.
“It is critical that the Departments of State and Justice to stand up not only for an important American company, but also for U.S. industry, U.S. shareholders, and American workers. If the U.S. Government does not make a clear and strong statement objecting to the EU actions, we will lose influence and credibility for years to come to the detriment of the U.S. economy and U.S. consumers.”
<snip>
[rhinoceros]
I've got to run. I haven't finished digging my bunker yet. Do you think a flag with a "free market" logo would make it safer?
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Walter Watts
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Just when I thought I was out-they pull me back in
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Re: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
« Reply #1 on: 2004-04-04 17:34:24 » |
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Frist only likes "free markets" as long as you're not writing a book critical of the Bush administration's handling of 9-11.
Then you're a despicable opportunist.
FFFFFUUUUUUCCCCCKKKKKKK!!
My grandfather-in-law was right:
Dim republicans is a tricky bunch!!!!
Walter
rhinoceros wrote:
<snip>
Do you think a flag with a "free market" logo would make it safer?
--
Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Pursue the small utopias... nature, music, friendship, love"
--Kupferberg--
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Walter Watts
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No one gets to see the Wizard! Not nobody! Not no how!
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simul
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Re: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
« Reply #2 on: 2004-04-04 18:28:59 » |
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The term “free market” is politispeak for “a market which favors established players”
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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Kharin
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Re:EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
« Reply #4 on: 2004-04-05 07:29:53 » |
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Quote:| " After giving a free lecture on economics and the European "stagnation" as opposed to the USA prosperity" |
Hmm. What be the reason for the quote marks around stagnation? It doesn't seem an especially unreasonable description, given that Germany's economy grew at 0-0.2% in the fourth quarter of 2003, the French economy grew at 0.5%, while the US economy grew at 4.8% in the same period. Looking at figures for the third quarter of 2003, Holland grew by 0.1%, while Italy contracted by 0.1%.
That said, obviously Frist's speech is piffle. Microsoft is not an American firm, it is a multinational and employs European staff as much as American staff. Conversely the idea that the EU should lose sleep over US jobs is highly amusing.
Quote:| "I've got to run. I haven't finished digging my bunker yet. Do you think a flag with a "free market" logo would make it safer?" |
Well, I did note that those words were actually absent from Frist's speech, presumably because the US has been little better than Europe on that score. Steel and softwood tariffs spring to mind. If there had been a free market in this case, the EU would hardly have needed to take the action it did.
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simul
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Re: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
« Reply #5 on: 2004-04-05 11:22:50 » |
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So, some group of Internet idealists defines a term... Do you really think that's how it's used?
Hell no.
Currently “free trade” means deregulating tarriffs for corporations, while retaining import taxes for individuals.
It means that governments provide corporate regulatory loopholes via unrestricted international outsourcing.
Meanwhile they impose massive regulation in small business markets. For example, you need various licenses to do business, there are all sorts product regulations (FCC, FDA, FTC)and compliance, complex tax laws, etc that favor large corporations. We even go so far as to invest government money directly into corporate subsidies, agribusiness loans and, yes, “cash injections” to the stock market.
All in the name of preserving “free trade”
Free trade is the biggest buzzword bullshit ever served up to the mouths of the citizens of this world.
Anyone who thinks it's real is either uninformed, an idiot, or a self-serving mouthpiece or member of the ruling class.
-----Original Message-----
From: "Jonathan Davis" <jonathan.davis@lineone.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 11:59:20
To:<virus@lucifer.com>
Subject: RE: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
No so fast Erik. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market
JD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Erik Aronesty
Sent: 04 April 2004 23:29
To: Church of Virus
Subject: Re: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
The term "free market" is politispeak for "a market which favors established
players"
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<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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JD
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RE: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
« Reply #6 on: 2004-04-05 18:30:25 » |
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I am an uninformed, idiotic and self-serving mouthpiece & member of the
ruling class. That does not help change the fact that you are getting upset
about very little.
Free Trade is simply a term used to describe an economic concept. You appear
to be angry about the abuse of the term.
Don't confuse the two.
Free Trade in the news seems to mostly refer to trade agreements between
countries
http://news.google.com/news?q=free.trade
Corporations can also be very good.
Regards
Limbic
Http://www.limbicnutrition.com/blog/
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Erik Aronesty
Sent: 05 April 2004 16:23
To: Church of Virus
Subject: Re: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
So, some group of Internet idealists defines a term... Do you really think
that's how it's used?
Hell no.
Currently "free trade" means deregulating tarriffs for corporations, while
retaining import taxes for individuals.
It means that governments provide corporate regulatory loopholes via
unrestricted international outsourcing.
Meanwhile they impose massive regulation in small business markets. For
example, you need various licenses to do business, there are all sorts
product regulations (FCC, FDA, FTC)and compliance, complex tax laws, etc
that favor large corporations. We even go so far as to invest government
money directly into corporate subsidies, agribusiness loans and, yes, "cash
injections" to the stock market.
All in the name of preserving "free trade"
Free trade is the biggest buzzword bullshit ever served up to the mouths of
the citizens of this world.
Anyone who thinks it's real is either uninformed, an idiot, or a
self-serving mouthpiece or member of the ruling class.
-----Original Message-----
From: "Jonathan Davis" <jonathan.davis@lineone.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 11:59:20
To:<virus@lucifer.com>
Subject: RE: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
No so fast Erik. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market
JD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Erik Aronesty
Sent: 04 April 2004 23:29
To: Church of Virus
Subject: Re: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
The term "free market" is politispeak for "a market which favors established
players"
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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rhinoceros
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My point is ...
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Re:EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
« Reply #7 on: 2004-04-05 20:58:22 » |
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[rhinoceros]
After giving a free lecture on economics and the European "stagnation" as opposed to the USA prosperity
[Kharin]
Hmm. What be the reason for the quote marks around stagnation? It doesn't seem an especially unreasonable description, given that Germany's economy grew at 0-0.2% in the fourth quarter of 2003, the French economy grew at 0.5%, while the US economy grew at 4.8% in the same period. Looking at figures for the third quarter of 2003, Holland grew by 0.1%, while Italy contracted by 0.1%.
[rhinoceros]
What is funny is that actually I had used more quotation marks intitially, which I deleted. The one pair I left had the effect which Kharin's all-seeing eye noticed. 
Of course there has been stagnation and high unemployment in Europe in the last years. Many economists ascribe it to Europe's unwillingness to fully subscribe to the elusive concept of free market. (I call it elusive because free market does not really exist anywhere on this planet, probably because it would take huge amounts of state intervention to get those people running around crazily and forming joint ventures, trade unions, consumer unions, and other aggregations to fit the curves on the paper.) Another view is that USA's comparatively better growth record can be ascribed to their militant state-backed economic policy -- they stand firmly behind their big corporations, no matter if the corporations trade in Boeings or in bananas. This is something one can notice in Frist's press release.
[Kharin]
Well, I did note that those words were actually absent from Frist's speech, presumably because the US has been little better than Europe on that score. Steel and softwood tariffs spring to mind. If there had been a free market in this case, the EU would hardly have needed to take the action it did.
[rhinoceros]
Since what Frist is doing here is calling for American state intervention against European state intervention, there was not much room left for him to use the FM words. But it could be done! One of the paradoxes of the free market concept is that it is routinely being enforced by state intervention.
The patriotic tone of Frist's references to Microsoft and Innovation was (almost) amusing. I also noticed the (pinko?) reference to American workers. Should we suppose that Microsoft does not do outshoring?
[simul]
The term “free market” is politispeak for “a market which favors established players”
[Jonathan Davis]
No so fast Erik. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market
[simul]
So, some group of Internet idealists defines a term... Do you really think that's how it's used?
Hell no.
Currently “free trade” means deregulating tarriffs for corporations, while retaining import taxes for individuals.
<snip>
Free trade is the biggest buzzword bullshit ever served up to the mouths of the citizens of this world.
Anyone who thinks it's real is either uninformed, an idiot, or a self-serving mouthpiece or member of the ruling class.
[rhinoceros]
Erik, I often happen to agree with some of the things you say but at the same time I often flinch. Here are some thought, not exclusively addressed at you.
First, it is useful to keep in mind that the people who read what you write have very different outlooks of the world, different premises and different analytical tools. Some of them have arrived there after some study, thought and experience, and their mental coherence system tells them that their outlook is good enough. So, you (everyone) cannot get your point through by typing an one-line assertion, because that will only be understood by the ones who already share it to some degree. This is hardly productive.
It is true that you did elaborate a bit in your last post, but again, for example, even an insult will fall through if it is based on the concepts of class society and the ruling class, not to speak of the uninformed whom you didn't inform, the idiots on whom you gave up, and the self-serving mouthpieces at whom you just snickered. This is unproductive as well. (By the way, I do understand the concepts of class society, ruling class and the dominant ruling class ideology, but this is irrelevant.)
Second, I suggest you (everyone) take one more look at the Wikipedia entry on free market which Jonathan (with whom I almost always disagree) pointed out. Some of the Internet idealists who write those things in Wikipedia are university teachers. You will find that this particular entry is ballanced enough to allow for arguments against the viability of the concept of free market in an informed and technically valid ways. Your (everyone's) arguments will earn more respect if you can display some more or less solid knowledge of the jubject.
That said, politicians are not necessarily concerned with the pros, the cons, and the limitations of the concept of free market -- probably many of them have a very vague idea of what it is. They can always apply some of its terminology selectively either as an economic tool or as a propaganda tool.
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Kharin
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Re:EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
« Reply #8 on: 2004-04-06 06:35:51 » |
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Quote:| Of course there has been stagnation and high unemployment in Europe in the last years. Many economists ascribe it to Europe's unwillingness to fully subscribe to the elusive concept of free market. |
Needless to add, I think there are alternative explanations. Firstly, European economies are trade focussed in a way the American economy is not. Where domestic supply can be easily met in the US with domestic demand, this is not the case in Europe (though it is the driving force behind the idea of the single market and the common currency, an attempt to create a domestic market of comparable size to the US). Given this, slumps in world trade are something Europe is particularly sensitive to. Incidentally, it's always worth bearing <a href="
http://www.samuelbrittan.co.uk/text163_p.html">this in mind</a> when thinking about the European economy:
Quote:| Readers may be more surprised to find the name of Frederich Hayek given as the source of the alternative neoliberal interpretation. For most of today’s self-proclaimed Hayekians view everything to do with the EU with intense suspicion. Indeed I was sufficiently surprised myself to look up some of Hayek’s writings on the subject. Although he played no part in the post war institutional discussion, he had written at some length on the problems of federalism in the late 1930s. Hayek was among those who believed that some form of federalism, whether in Europe or on a wider basis, was an important step towards a more peaceful world. In a 1939 essay, remarkably anticipating the EU Single Market Act, he argued that a political union required some elements of a common economic policy, such as a common tariff, monetary and exchange rate policy, but also a ban on intervention to help particular producers. |
On the whole though, I think a lot of the issue can be resolved between differing types of economic measurement. The US has a growing population (largely by greater use of immigration) and accordingly scores well on GDP figures and economic growth. The EU has small population growth, lower immigration and demographic problems. That does mean that it scores well on GDP per capita though, and also has much more of a flat social system, as opposed to US inequality. There's a more full discussion of this at: http://www.philippelegrain.com/Articles/europe'smightyec.html
Quote:| (I call it elusive because free market does not really exist anywhere on this planet, probably because it would take huge amounts of state intervention to get those people running around crazily and forming joint ventures, trade unions, consumer unions, and other aggregations to fit the curves on the paper.) |
I've always been under the impression that a deregulated free market system of the kind most of its advocates aspire to would be impossible simply on the grounds of democracy. Such a system would produce such alarming inequalities without a safety net only denial of universal suffrage could permit its continuance. Equally, my impression is that free market policies have been historically incompatible with trade unions and consumer unions.
Quote:| Another view is that USA's comparatively better growth record can be ascribed to their militant state-backed economic policy -- they stand firmly behind their big corporations, no matter if the corporations trade in Boeings or in bananas. |
Yes, EU regulations prohibit state support for industry where it would give firms an unfair advantage over competitors from other European states.
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simul
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Re: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
« Reply #9 on: 2004-04-06 17:42:22 » |
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That doesn't change the fact that advocating free trade, in the current political environment is irresponsible at best.
-----Original Message-----
From: "Jonathan Davis" <jonathan.davis@lineone.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 23:30:25
To:<virus@lucifer.com>
Subject: RE: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
I am an uninformed, idiotic and self-serving mouthpiece & member of the
ruling class. That does not help change the fact that you are getting upset
about very little.
Free Trade is simply a term used to describe an economic concept. You appear
to be angry about the abuse of the term.
Don't confuse the two.
Free Trade in the news seems to mostly refer to trade agreements between
countries
http://news.google.com/news?q=free.trade
Corporations can also be very good.
Regards
Limbic
Http://www.limbicnutrition.com/blog/
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Erik Aronesty
Sent: 05 April 2004 16:23
To: Church of Virus
Subject: Re: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
So, some group of Internet idealists defines a term... Do you really think
that's how it's used?
Hell no.
Currently "free trade" means deregulating tarriffs for corporations, while
retaining import taxes for individuals.
It means that governments provide corporate regulatory loopholes via
unrestricted international outsourcing.
Meanwhile they impose massive regulation in small business markets. For
example, you need various licenses to do business, there are all sorts
product regulations (FCC, FDA, FTC)and compliance, complex tax laws, etc
that favor large corporations. We even go so far as to invest government
money directly into corporate subsidies, agribusiness loans and, yes, "cash
injections" to the stock market.
All in the name of preserving "free trade"
Free trade is the biggest buzzword bullshit ever served up to the mouths of
the citizens of this world.
Anyone who thinks it's real is either uninformed, an idiot, or a
self-serving mouthpiece or member of the ruling class.
-----Original Message-----
From: "Jonathan Davis" <jonathan.davis@lineone.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 11:59:20
To:<virus@lucifer.com>
Subject: RE: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
No so fast Erik. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market
JD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Erik Aronesty
Sent: 04 April 2004 23:29
To: Church of Virus
Subject: Re: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
The term "free market" is politispeak for "a market which favors established
players"
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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simul
Adept
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Re: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
« Reply #10 on: 2004-04-06 17:53:02 » |
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The “patriot act” is similarly named incorrectly, being that it is unpatriotic.
Likewise “Free trade” is not free.
It's beyond a misused term, it's a self-contained deception.
Analogously, you could pass a law restricting companies from setting prices on their goods, or restrict consumers from negotiating with vendors and call it “free trade”.
It's 100 percent crap.
-----Original Message-----
From: "Jonathan Davis" <jonathan.davis@lineone.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 23:30:25
To:<virus@lucifer.com>
Subject: RE: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
I am an uninformed, idiotic and self-serving mouthpiece & member of the
ruling class. That does not help change the fact that you are getting upset
about very little.
Free Trade is simply a term used to describe an economic concept. You appear
to be angry about the abuse of the term.
Don't confuse the two.
Free Trade in the news seems to mostly refer to trade agreements between
countries
http://news.google.com/news?q=free.trade
Corporations can also be very good.
Regards
Limbic
Http://www.limbicnutrition.com/blog/
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Erik Aronesty
Sent: 05 April 2004 16:23
To: Church of Virus
Subject: Re: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
So, some group of Internet idealists defines a term... Do you really think
that's how it's used?
Hell no.
Currently "free trade" means deregulating tarriffs for corporations, while
retaining import taxes for individuals.
It means that governments provide corporate regulatory loopholes via
unrestricted international outsourcing.
Meanwhile they impose massive regulation in small business markets. For
example, you need various licenses to do business, there are all sorts
product regulations (FCC, FDA, FTC)and compliance, complex tax laws, etc
that favor large corporations. We even go so far as to invest government
money directly into corporate subsidies, agribusiness loans and, yes, "cash
injections" to the stock market.
All in the name of preserving "free trade"
Free trade is the biggest buzzword bullshit ever served up to the mouths of
the citizens of this world.
Anyone who thinks it's real is either uninformed, an idiot, or a
self-serving mouthpiece or member of the ruling class.
-----Original Message-----
From: "Jonathan Davis" <jonathan.davis@lineone.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 11:59:20
To:<virus@lucifer.com>
Subject: RE: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
No so fast Erik. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market
JD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Erik Aronesty
Sent: 04 April 2004 23:29
To: Church of Virus
Subject: Re: virus: EU, Microsoft, and Bill Frist
The term "free market" is politispeak for "a market which favors established
players"
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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