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  RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
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   Author  Topic: RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.  (Read 2415 times)
Blunderov
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RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
« on: 2004-03-27 05:57:14 »
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[Blunderov]
I think it was Parmenides who formalized the rule that 'nothing comes
from nothing' (ex nihilo nihil fit). IM(V)HO Plato may have
misunderstood Parmenides argument when he said (if I recall correctly)
that this must imply that nothing could change; my understanding of
Parmenides is that he said everything that exists, has always existed. I
do not understand him to mean that 'existence' is synonymous with
'form'.

The thought strikes me that 'nothing comes from nothing' may offer a
litmus-test in the problem of how to discriminate between abstract and
concrete. How about the proposition that: if a thing can be described as
having the ability to increase without this increase being at the
expense of some other thing, then that concept is an abstract concept?

For instance is it possible that we can imagine more 'love' in the world
without it being at the expense of something else? Quite easily it seems
to me. Abstract.

Likewise with 'information'.

Conversely, is it possible to imagine more chairs in the world without
them being at the expense of some other thing. Well, no. Concrete.

I ran into a bit of a difficulty with 'chastity'. I'm not too sure
whether chastity wouldn't be at the expense of 'sex' and vice versa,
although I suspect that this may not be necessarily true. I can't make
up my mind as to whether this falsifies my notion or not.

(Much more likely is that I have overlooked some completely obvious
falsification.)

Any thoughts?

Best Regards



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simul
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Re: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
« Reply #1 on: 2004-03-27 09:59:50 »
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All things have some expense. 

Information is gained at the expense of storage and transmission capacity.

Memes fight for concious mindshare.  Conciousness is a very limited resource.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
Joe Dees
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RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
« Reply #2 on: 2004-03-27 10:23:16 »
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Joe Dees
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RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
« Reply #3 on: 2004-03-27 10:30:05 »
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RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
« Reply #4 on: 2004-03-27 10:46:32 »
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Welcome back Joe. I am genuinely delighted to see you back again. Thanks
Blunderov for husbanding this happy outcome.

It would be great if we could get all the great Virians back. With Joe back,
one in particular remains sorely missed.

Kind regards

Limbic
Http://www.limbicnutrition.com/blog/



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Joe Dees
Sent: 27 March 2004 15:23
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.


True enough; information (meaningful pattern) does not exist in the
abstract, as pure form.  It must be instantiated (coded) in matter/energy.
Even our 'abstract' thoughts likewise are encoded in dynamic energy patterns
flitting through our neurons and synapses.  Perceived pattern is meaningful
insomuch as it triggers a patterned response (recognition/recall based upon
relationship to past experience) in the cognitive neuron/synapse network
which it reaches via the senses (vision, audition, olfaction, gustation and
taction).  All concepts are grounded in percepts, and recurse to inform
them.

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Joe Dees
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RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
« Reply #5 on: 2004-03-27 12:01:59 »
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
« Reply #6 on: 2004-03-27 12:50:29 »
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Erik Aronesty
Sent: 27 March 2004 05:00 PM
To: Church of Virus
Subject: Re: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.

All things have some expense. 

Information is gained at the expense of storage and transmission
capacity.

Memes fight for concious mindshare.  Conciousness is a very limited
resource.

[Blunderov]Mmm. Not looking good for the hypothesis. But I haven't quiet
abandoned it yet - every daddys' duckling is a swan.

I still puzzling about whether information can be said to have an
existence which is in any way separate from its' residence. Can a thing
be said to be stored in itself? Would this make a difference either way?
I'm a bit stuck I admit.

Thanks to all who provided their thoughts. I've a long way to go with
this one.

Best Regards


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Lise Carlstrom
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RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
« Reply #7 on: 2004-03-27 14:57:28 »
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--- Blunderov <squooker@mweb.co.za> wrote:
> The thought strikes me that 'nothing comes from
> nothing' may offer a
> litmus-test in the problem of how to discriminate
> between abstract and
> concrete. How about the proposition that: if a thing
> can be described as
> having the ability to increase without this increase
> being at the
> expense of some other thing, then that concept is an
> abstract concept?
>
> For instance is it possible that we can imagine more
> 'love' in the world
> without it being at the expense of something else?
> Quite easily it seems
> to me. Abstract.

An abstract increases at the expense of other
abstracts.  "Love", for instance, could be said to
increase at the expense of "hate", "rejection", or
"disgust".  This thus does not seem like a good test
for abstractness to me, since you'd have to already
have determined whether the things it's at the cost of
are themselves abstracts.

--Eva

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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
« Reply #8 on: 2004-03-27 16:03:57 »
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Eva-Lise Carlstrom
Sent: 27 March 2004 09:57 PM

An abstract increases at the expense of other
abstracts.  "Love", for instance, could be said to
increase at the expense of "hate", "rejection", or
"disgust".  This thus does not seem like a good test
for abstractness to me, since you'd have to already
have determined whether the things it's at the cost of
are themselves abstracts.

[Blunderov]Surely not? If I have another child does it mean that my love
for any others becomes diminished? Or that my hate for, say,
infomercials is reduced?

(True, I'm clinging to my premise that information is abstract.)

Best Regards


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simul
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Re: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
« Reply #9 on: 2004-03-27 22:32:48 »
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Love itself is not a limited resource, since one can, quite easily, love all of mankind, or even the whole universe in one instant, and then, equally, think is's all a bunch of crap in the next.

Incidentally, I tend to waffle between those two states fairly often...

Love decreaes hate, but not love. 

Perhaps abstracts, when used or wielded (in the strictly nethackian sense) decrease the availability of inverse/competing abstracts, but not the availability of themselves, they are limited only by mind-space. 


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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
Blunderov
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RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
« Reply #10 on: 2004-03-28 01:36:20 »
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Jonathan Davis
Sent: 27 March 2004 05:47 PM
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.

Welcome back Joe. I am genuinely delighted to see you back again. Thanks
Blunderov for husbanding this happy outcome.

It would be great if we could get all the great Virians back. With Joe
back,
one in particular remains sorely missed.

[Blunderov]A pleasure Jonathan. Bear in mind that Joe deserves half of
the credit. Which reminds me -welcome back Joe! Other strayed sheep?
Well, we live in hope.
Best regards


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Joe Dees
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RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
« Reply #11 on: 2004-03-28 02:56:49 »
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Walter Watts
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Re: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
« Reply #12 on: 2004-03-28 11:49:30 »
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Like I said, Joe. Welcome back. Sincerely.

Since we're all in a warm,  fuzzy,  touchy-feely mood upon your return, I would CERTAINLY accept an apology from you for labeling me one of those "emotionally-blinded-to-logic-and-evidence dittohead (Hermit) minion" (s) when you left.

That is, unless you want to back it up with something I actually said.

Respectfully,
Walter
<looking forward to civility and peaceful discourse>

Joe Dees wrote:

> I sincerely hope that the Pied Piper guru of other-than-worshipful-clone totalitarian intolerance, logorrheal browbeating, Stalinist silencing, vicious, vituperative ad hominem, off-list conspiratorial plotting, and cornucopially vomitous and vile mother-slander is not being invited back from his most blessedly long absence to infect and inflict his megalomaniacal self upon this beleaguered site yet again.  That long absence is the only reason I agreed to forgive the unjust and unfair railroading I experienced here and return at all, hoping that time had clarified and cleansed the poisoned well which, with his twisted help, this forum had become.  I had actually despaired of its ever recovering from such extremist fanatically fervent zealotry as he had nurtured and, by example, inspired in some emotionally-blinded-to-logic-and-evidence dittohead minion sheeple here, and had actually, and sadly, expected him to succeed in his stated ambition of ramrodding this site into compl!
> etely abandoning any pretense to balance and objectivity and becoming just another nauseous Said-Rall-Fisk-Pilger+Chomsky-genuflecting clone of such paragon-of-fringe-mentality sites as the Democratic Underground, Indymedia, Zmag and the Yellow News.  I quite simply will not cohabit this site with such sick, demented and disgusting detritus.
>
> And thank you most muchly, Jonathan, for taking up the baton that was ripped from my unwilling hand and running with it so well.  Your blackness made you ideal for that purpose; it would've been ludicrous beyond measure for the former South African white boy (apologies to the much more rational and reasonable Blunderov) to have attempted to plaster YOU with the racist label he so mightily, pitifully and pathetically strove to staple to me with a superglue gun.
>
> ----
> This message was posted by Joe Dees to the Virus 2004 board on Church of Virus BBS.
> <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=30091>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>

--

Walter Watts
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"Pursue the small utopias... nature, music, friendship, love"
--Kupferberg--


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Joe Dees
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RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
« Reply #13 on: 2004-03-28 14:12:53 »
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David Lucifer
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Re: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.
« Reply #14 on: 2004-03-28 22:17:47 »
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If this is the kind of discussion we can expect now that Joe is back, I am out of here.

David

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Dees" <hidden@lucifer.com>
To: <virus@lucifer.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 2:56 AM
Subject: RE: virus: Parmenides and the problem of abstract and concrete.


>
> I sincerely hope that the Pied Piper guru of other-than-worshipful-clone totalitarian intolerance, logorrheal browbeating,
Stalinist silencing, vicious, vituperative ad hominem, off-list conspiratorial plotting, and cornucopially vomitous and vile
mother-slander is not being invited back from his most blessedly long absence to infect and inflict his megalomaniacal self upon
this beleaguered site yet again.  That long absence is the only reason I agreed to forgive the unjust and unfair railroading I
experienced here and return at all, hoping that time had clarified and cleansed the poisoned well which, with his twisted help, this
forum had become.  I had actually despaired of its ever recovering from such extremist fanatically fervent zealotry as he had
nurtured and, by example, inspired in some emotionally-blinded-to-logic-and-evidence dittohead minion sheeple here, and had
actually, and sadly, expected him to succeed in his stated ambition of ramrodding this site into completely abandoning any pretense
to balance and objectivity and becoming just another nauseous Said-Rall-Fisk-Pilger+Chomsky-genuflecting clone of such
paragon-of-fringe-mentality sites as the Democratic Underground, Indymedia, Zmag and the Yellow News.  I quite simply will not
cohabit this site with such sick, demented and disgusting detritus.
>
> And thank you most muchly, Jonathan, for taking up the baton that was ripped from my unwilling hand and running with it so well.
Your blackness made you ideal for that purpose; it would've been ludicrous beyond measure for the former South African white boy
(apologies to the much more rational and reasonable Blunderov) to have attempted to plaster YOU with the racist label he so mightily
, pitifully and pathetically strove to staple to me with a superglue gun.
>
> ----
> This message was posted by Joe Dees to the Virus 2004 board on Church of Virus BBS.
> <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=30091>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
>

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