terrorising air passengers..
« on: 2004-02-09 02:51:14 »
<a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/07/state2118EST0136.DTL">Pilot suggested passengers discuss Christianity during LA-to-New York flight </a>
An American Airlines pilot flying passengers from Los Angeles to New York asked Christians on board to identify themselves and then suggested that non-Christian passengers discuss the faith with them, the airline confirmed Saturday.
The pilot, whose identity was not released, had been making flight announcements before he asked that the Christians on board raise their hands, said American Airlines spokesman Tim Wagner.
Wagner said the pilot told airline officials he then suggested the other passengers use the flight time to talk to the Christians about their faith.
The pilot later told passengers he himself would be available at the end of the flight to talk about his first announcement.
Wagner said the airline was investigating the incident.
"It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job," he said.
The pilot had just returned to work from a weeklong mission trip to Costa Rica, Wagner said.
[Mermaid] And one wonders why air travel is so dangerous these days..
An American Airlines pilot flying passengers from Los Angeles to New York asked Christians on board to identify themselves and then suggested that non-Christian passengers discuss the faith with them, the airline confirmed Saturday.
The pilot, whose identity was not released, had been making flight announcements before he asked that the Christians on board raise their hands, said American Airlines spokesman Tim Wagner.
Wagner said the pilot told airline officials he then suggested the other passengers use the flight time to talk to the Christians about their faith.
The pilot later told passengers he himself would be available at the end of the flight to talk about his first announcement.
Wagner said the airline was investigating the incident.
"It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job," he said.
The pilot had just returned to work from a weeklong mission trip to Costa Rica, Wagner said.
[Mermaid] And one wonders why air travel is so dangerous these days..
[Blunderov]
Truly fascinating! Does he have less of a right to speak his own mind freely if he is working for someone? Or is there always a sort of Faustian pact implicit in accepting employment?
Without wishing to flog a rather weary horse, I cannot help but remember that Mussolini conceived of fascism as being strongly affiliated with big business. Is it possible that government can rely upon industry to undermine those rights of the citizenry that the government dare not molest?
What if the pilot had made a political speech instead? If the airline had the power to forbid such a speech, would it not simultaneously have the power to insist that the pilot deliver a speech of the airlines own devising instead?
I am beginning to suspect that we are in the grip of a terrible Frankenstein; since the end of the cold war it seems the only ideology left in the world is 'money'.
Re:terrorising air passengers..
« Reply #2 on: 2004-02-09 08:12:42 »
[Blunderov] Truly fascinating! Does he have less of a right to speak his own mind freely if he is working for someone? Or is there always a sort of Faustian pact implicit in accepting employment?
[Mermaid]Are you supporting the right of public and private sector employees to bring in their personal viewpoints with the general populace they are servicing?
[Blunderov] Truly fascinating! Does he have less of a right to speak his own mind freely if he is working for someone? Or is there always a sort of Faustian pact implicit in accepting employment?
[Mermaid]Are you supporting the right of public and private sector employees to bring in their personal viewpoints with the general populace they are servicing?
[Blunderov1] Yes I do believe I am. Unless they express opinions which militate against the venture that they have undertaken to foster, I can see no reason to preclude them from expressing themselves as they see fit. Presuming that the passengers were under no compulsion to comply with the pilot's suggestion, it is not clear to me that the pilot had harmed the airlines interests and, who knows, he may even have enhanced them.
I am not in favour of absolute freedom of speech - the famous example of shouting 'fire' in a crowded cinema when there is no danger is salutary. But I am very jealous of as broad a right to free speech as is reasonably possible and any attempt to constrain it arouses within me a deep suspicion.
RE: virus: terrorising air passengers..
« Reply #5 on: 2004-02-09 14:57:21 »
> [Original Message] > From: Blunderov <squooker@mweb.co.za> > To: <virus@lucifer.com> > Date: 02/09/2004 3:03:39 AM > Subject: RE: virus: terrorising air passengers.. > > Mermaid > Sent: 09 February 2004 09:51 AM > <a > href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/ > 07/state2118EST0136.DTL">Pilot suggested passengers discuss Christianity > during LA-to-New York flight </a> > > An American Airlines pilot flying passengers from Los Angeles to New > York asked Christians on board to identify themselves and then suggested > that non-Christian passengers discuss the faith with them, the airline > confirmed Saturday. > > The pilot, whose identity was not released, had been making flight > announcements before he asked that the Christians on board raise their > hands, said American Airlines spokesman Tim Wagner. > > Wagner said the pilot told airline officials he then suggested the other > passengers use the flight time to talk to the Christians about their > faith. > > The pilot later told passengers he himself would be available at the end > of the flight to talk about his first announcement. > > Wagner said the airline was investigating the incident. > > "It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be > appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job," he said. > > The pilot had just returned to work from a weeklong mission trip to > Costa Rica, Wagner said. > > > [Mermaid] And one wonders why air travel is so dangerous these days.. > > [Blunderov] > > Truly fascinating! Does he have less of a right to speak his own mind > freely if he is working for someone? Or is there always a sort of > Faustian pact implicit in accepting employment? > > Without wishing to flog a rather weary horse, I cannot help but remember > that Mussolini conceived of fascism as being strongly affiliated with > big business. Is it possible that government can rely upon industry to > undermine those rights of the citizenry that the government dare not > molest? > > What if the pilot had made a political speech instead? If the airline > had the power to forbid such a speech, would it not simultaneously have > the power to insist that the pilot deliver a speech of the airlines own > devising > instead?
I think the real problem lies in the fact that in this case there is a captive audience whose lives are literally in the hands of the pilot, who takes crass advantage of this situation to spout his religious program on them. If he were doing the same thing in the airport terminal instead of on the plane, it would be a much simpler issue for passengers to ignore him and issues of free speech would more understandably take precedence. I think that someone grown up in entirely different culture and religion would find this situation downright intimidating, where American non-Christians (Atheists, Jews, etc.) might just chalk it up as yet another asinine instance among many. If this pilot can't stop himself from this behavior, I think he should lose his job.
RE: virus: Re:terrorising air passengers..
« Reply #6 on: 2004-02-09 15:18:51 »
> [Original Message] > From: Blunderov <squooker@mweb.co.za> > To: <virus@lucifer.com> > Date: 02/09/2004 9:28:21 AM > Subject: RE: virus: Re:terrorising air passengers.. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf > Of Mermaid > Sent: 09 February 2004 03:13 PM > To: virus@lucifer.com > Subject: virus: Re:terrorising air passengers.. > > > [Blunderov] > Truly fascinating! Does he have less of a right to speak his own mind > freely if he is working for someone? Or is there always a sort of > Faustian pact implicit in accepting employment? > > [Mermaid]Are you supporting the right of public and private sector > employees to bring in their personal viewpoints with the general > populace they are servicing? > > [Blunderov1] > Yes I do believe I am. Unless they express opinions which militate > against the venture that they have undertaken to foster, I can see no > reason to preclude them from expressing themselves as they see fit. > Presuming that the passengers were under no compulsion to comply with > the pilot's suggestion, it is not clear to me that the pilot had harmed > the airlines interests and, who knows, he may even have enhanced them. > > I am not in favour of absolute freedom of speech - the famous example of > shouting 'fire' in a crowded cinema when there is no danger is salutary. > But I am very jealous of as broad a right to free speech as is > reasonably possible and any attempt to constrain it arouses within me a > deep suspicion. > > Best Regards In this country, and every country that has a tradition of free speech, jurisprudence has always recognized time place and manner restrictions on free speech. Indeed, I don't think you can successfully have a free society without respecting some restrictions like this. Here the pilot and the passengers are not in an equal situation. They are quite literally a captive audience. Even if I didn't like what the pilot was saying, I would still have to listen to him in the possibility that something he might say would have some relevance to my personal safety. To put his actions under the label of free speech is much more destructive than promoting of free speech. You can safely turn off the TV or radio, put down the newspaper or magazine, or walk away from or simply ignore a person trying to talk to you in an ordinary public place. Indeed airport terminals have been long judicially recognized as public places with wide free speech latitude. But the same does not hold true with the captive audience of a commercial pilot on his airline. I think either the airline or the FAA would be perfectly in line to forbid this kind of behavior, and I bet just about any court would not find this a violation of free speech.
> I think the real problem lies in the fact that in this case there is a > captive audience whose lives are literally in the hands of the pilot, who > takes crass advantage of this situation to spout his religious program on > them. If he were doing the same thing in the airport terminal instead of > on the plane, it would be a much simpler issue for passengers to ignore him > and issues of free speech would more understandably take precedence. I > think that someone grown up in entirely different culture and religion > would find this situation downright intimidating, where American > non-Christians (Atheists, Jews, etc.) might just chalk it up as yet another > asinine instance among many. If this pilot can't stop himself from this > behavior, I think he should lose his job.
Quite so. Imagine if Moslems of Buddhists or priests of any other religion started preaching in a similar way trying to convert people. They would be shouted quiet or thrown out of the plane.
Criticizing preaching about christianity is almost as anathema as criticizing jews in america => earns you an immediate condemnation of anti-semitism and followed by demands for apologies. - Jews can do no wrong, and neither can the fundamentalist christians of America.
RE: virus: terrorising air passengers..
« Reply #8 on: 2004-02-09 15:42:29 »
I think the pilot should lose his job, or at least be well chastized. Subjecting a captive audience, there for a practical and commercial purpose, to religious proselytizing without due warning was incredibly rude, inappropriate, and, in my opinion, memetically abusive. As others have noted, the passengers did not have the option to avoid the speech. Not only non-Christian passengers, but those Christian passengers who did not feel comfortable evangelizing, were put in a very awkward position.
If an establishment advertises itself as religiously oriented, such as by, say, being a church, or by putting a cute little Jesus fish in their Yellow Pages ad, then I have no problem with their religious speech--I had warning and could choose to avoid their place of business.
I was once on an Alaska Airlines flight and found a Christian prayer included with my dinner, complete with an invocation of "Our Lord Jesus". I felt creeped out and unwelcome, based on their assumption that I would be happy to participate in Christian practice just because I was on their plane. I wrote a letter of complaint to the airline. Please note that I would not have objected had I ordered the kosher meal (which I sometimes do) and found a Hebrew prayer. I'm not Jewish, but it's a reasonable conclusion to reach based on my ordering kosher.
The pilot can do what he likes on his own time, but I don't want him telling me to seek Christ when I'm just there to fly to Denver, thanks.
RE: virus: terrorising air passengers..
« Reply #10 on: 2004-02-09 18:21:40 »
...if i'm allowed to smoke on the plane, i'll let them preach to me. i impose on them, they impose on me. perhaps they should consider a conversation and a non-conversation section if what we're speaking of is another humans "right" to engage you without your permission. it starts sounding pretty silly doesnt it?
...if an airline did such things on a regular basis, i would fully expect people to actively seek a less annoying company to fly with. the market would either support it or not.
DrSebby. "Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows---- From: "Jake Sapiens" <every1hz@earthlink.net> Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com To: "virus" <virus@lucifer.com> Subject: RE: virus: terrorising air passengers.. Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:57:21 -0800
> [Original Message] > From: Blunderov <squooker@mweb.co.za> > To: <virus@lucifer.com> > Date: 02/09/2004 3:03:39 AM > Subject: RE: virus: terrorising air passengers.. > > Mermaid > Sent: 09 February 2004 09:51 AM > <a > href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/ > 07/state2118EST0136.DTL">Pilot suggested passengers discuss Christianity > during LA-to-New York flight </a> > > An American Airlines pilot flying passengers from Los Angeles to New > York asked Christians on board to identify themselves and then suggested > that non-Christian passengers discuss the faith with them, the airline > confirmed Saturday. > > The pilot, whose identity was not released, had been making flight > announcements before he asked that the Christians on board raise their > hands, said American Airlines spokesman Tim Wagner. > > Wagner said the pilot told airline officials he then suggested the other > passengers use the flight time to talk to the Christians about their > faith. > > The pilot later told passengers he himself would be available at the end > of the flight to talk about his first announcement. > > Wagner said the airline was investigating the incident. > > "It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be > appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job," he said. > > The pilot had just returned to work from a weeklong mission trip to > Costa Rica, Wagner said. > > > [Mermaid] And one wonders why air travel is so dangerous these days.. > > [Blunderov] > > Truly fascinating! Does he have less of a right to speak his own mind > freely if he is working for someone? Or is there always a sort of > Faustian pact implicit in accepting employment? > > Without wishing to flog a rather weary horse, I cannot help but remember > that Mussolini conceived of fascism as being strongly affiliated with > big business. Is it possible that government can rely upon industry to > undermine those rights of the citizenry that the government dare not > molest? > > What if the pilot had made a political speech instead? If the airline > had the power to forbid such a speech, would it not simultaneously have > the power to insist that the pilot deliver a speech of the airlines own > devising > instead?
I think the real problem lies in the fact that in this case there is a captive audience whose lives are literally in the hands of the pilot, who takes crass advantage of this situation to spout his religious program on them. If he were doing the same thing in the airport terminal instead of on the plane, it would be a much simpler issue for passengers to ignore him and issues of free speech would more understandably take precedence. I think that someone grown up in entirely different culture and religion would find this situation downright intimidating, where American non-Christians (Atheists, Jews, etc.) might just chalk it up as yet another asinine instance among many. If this pilot can't stop himself from this behavior, I think he should lose his job.
Re: virus: terrorising air passengers..
« Reply #12 on: 2004-02-10 01:11:38 »
Cool! can I bring my crack pipe and a rock or two? I mean if we're gonna fly, let's fly!! I could probably put up with a lot more preachy bad behavior if they would just let me smoke pot on the plane.
Love,
-Jake
> [Original Message] > From: Erik Aronesty <erik@zoneedit.com> > To: <virus@lucifer.com> > Date: 02/09/2004 6:47:24 PM > Subject: Re: virus: terrorising air passengers.. > > They have smoking flights. > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
--- Jake Sapiens --- every1hz@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
Yes I do believe I am. Unless they express opinions which militate against the venture that they have undertaken to foster, I can see no reason to preclude them from expressing themselves as they see fit. Presuming that the passengers were under no compulsion to comply with the pilot's suggestion, it is not clear to me that the pilot had harmed the airlines interests and, who knows, he may even have enhanced them.
[Mermaid]Ok. Here is another example. What about a visit to your neighbourhood post office and the clerk behind the counter passes on religious literature(say..passages from the koran that she finds fascinating after her recent conversion) along with your book of stamps. You dont know her. You are not a moslem. She is not doing it in her free time, but slips it as its a splendid opportunity to spread her passion during her work hours.
1.How would you react?
2.How would someone who is not you react?
3.How should the post office which pays her salary for her time spent behind the counter to do her job react?
4.Do you also believe that stealing office stationery and supplies is alright?
An employer pays an employee for his time and skill. One is hired for one's time and one's abilities to add value to the employer's raw resources. If a pilot's actions/words loses an airline customers, it most definitely interferes with the airline's ability to do business profitably. It is no more about rights, but it becomes an issue of abused resources by the employee. Just my two cents.
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