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Topic: The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus (Read 5749 times) |
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Hermit
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #30 on: 2003-10-04 20:27:36 » |
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[Mermaid]Who are they? I have questions for them too.
[Hermit] As the CoV is not a cult of personality, our Wiki articles are unsigned except in so far as establishing page status.
[Hermit] This particular issue went through in excess of 20 edits in the course of its formulation, many of them driven by group discussions on IRC and the Wiki. I don't recall everyone who was involved, and even if I did, I think that if the people involved wish to submit to your interogations, they should speak for themselves.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #31 on: 2003-10-04 22:04:14 » |
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I am hoping that this is my final contribution to this thread...
I just read the discussion on disownment ..in the wiki...may I request you to conduct further virus related policy changes in #virus? I have been critical about the disownment and DiP right from the beginning and I dont remember being part of that discussion(the one linked from the wiki page) in #virus. I dont remember seeing it in the #virus logs either.
Re page history of DiP on the wiki
http://virus.lucifer.com/wiki/DisciplinaryProcess?action=PageHistory
The entire wiki entry is edited by you. Its not like I am dictating what has to go into the wiki or what you should add to the wiki. Its your idea and something you wanted to write about, which is ok by me...but I think I have to protest when it is imposed upon me and the rest of the community....It seems to me that there was sizable criticism of DiP and the Disownment policy elsewhere outside of the wiki going by the Page History. I know this because I protested. Right from the beginning. One of the reasons I joined the Meridion is to give voice to my protests. Please hear me out now.
The Disownment was passed by vote to deal with one particular miscreant, imo. It came to a point where Disownment seemed to be the only way to get rid of a certain unpleasantness. This neednt have been the case. I disagreed it with this then and I disagree with it now.
Self monitoring behaviour should arise out of respect and not fear. Any system has loopholes and so does DiP/Disownment. Coercing members to behave using a system that is open to abuse instead of holding the members to their integrity and self respect. We want members who are honest and sincere to the goals of CoV. We want members to watch their words and mind their actions ON THEIR OWN ACCORD because they care for CoV and not because they'd be disowned or 'disciplined. We can identify those who insist on making mischief. We may be a lot of things, but stupid isnt one of them. We dont want members who'd dodge to avoid getting caught by the rules and still have their way.
This is my proposal. I am not saying that DiP needs to be gotten rid of permanently. We just dont need it now. Let it stay in the wiki. We can refer to it in cases of unimaginable and terrible destruction that some think will befall on CoV. In simpler, less offensive language, hopefully.
For the chat...Instead of discussing DiP, lets discuss what the year 2004 holds for CoV. Lets draw a plan based on the common goals. Identifying a goal is not an achievement. Following it through is...After deciding on virian tasks for the year 2004, lets form committes. Meridion members can sign up for the different tasks. They WILL be held accountable. There WILL be deadlines. Honestly, I dont give a shit about people's personal view, political stance, choice of language etc in the bbs. The random right wing stance on the BBS doesnt not reflect who we are...neither does a drunken post ranting against another member....nor does paranoid rants about 'dangerous enemies'...
these are personal point of views...they have a right to exist. personal opinions stem from personal experiences and how each individual reacts to his environment, stress etc....that is not a reason to punish/disown/discipline anyone..even if they share goals with the url that states the common virian goal....Our goals and especially how we implement them does reflect who we are...anyone who creates a stink in an exceptionally noticeable way can be silenced by the sheriff. The conduct of Meridion members will be mirrored by their ratings. As we finish various sections of each of our assignments, there has to be a way to reflect it in the Meridion. As Meridion belongs to Lucifer, I will leave it up to him to design the new brownie point system.
Lets get that in our next chat...lets draw *specific* goals...lets form committees...we'll record our progress monthly..maybe bi-monthly or quarterly...
The other day, I was pondering on this saying..An idle mind is the devil's workshop...err..I hope not....
You are tiring me out with your long responses. To be honest, I barely finished reading the entire Colostomy post. So instead of going round and round and heading nowhere, I am ending this here. I think I have said everything I wanted to say. I have nothing to more to add.
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Hermit
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #32 on: 2003-10-04 23:31:30 » |
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As I have a lot of calls on my time, I do not care to have to spend what little I can find with those whose on-line behaviour or chatter I find annoying. In consequence I generally prefer to avoid #virus except during meetings with formal rules. There is another channel, #viruspolicy, where policy discussions take place. Virians wishing to meet with me on IRC are also aware of #hermit (usually unlogged).
As I choose not to have to meet with you in an environment where you have frequently and repeatedly chosen to attempt to insult or bad mouth me, and where I might again be tempted to rejoin, I would far rather discuss any policy issues you might like to raise on the BBS (In the wiki section of the Cathedral) and on the wiki itself.
As for the rest of what you said, I recommend again that you read http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/crime/windows.htm and consider the implications for an online forum. It is evident that what you advocate is "more of the same" that has lead to the nasty situations we have repeatedly experienced, along with a non-stop trickle of prods and jibes - which may amuse some - but lead to our forums seeming distinctly unattractive to many people. This may be nuts for you*, if you enjoy misbehaving, but seems nuts to me as it is in conflict with our goals.
Hermit
* Epitaph, from memory
Mary-Anne is laid to rest
Safe at last on Abraham's breast
This may be nuts for Mary-Ann
But it's certainly rough on old Abraham.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #33 on: 2003-10-04 23:53:29 » |
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[Hermit]As I choose not to have to meet with you in an environment where you have frequently and repeatedly chosen to attempt to insult or bad mouth me, and where I might again be tempted to rejoin, I would far rather discuss any policy issues you might like to raise on the BBS (In the wiki section of the Cathedral) and on the wiki itself.
[Mermaid]This is slander. Look what happens when I try to have a conversation with you on the bbs...? Knock yourself out...Any more attempt at a honest communication with you is a waste of my time.
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Re: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #34 on: 2003-10-05 00:28:58 » |
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At 08:25 PM 03/10/03 -0600, you wrote:
>[henson][...]Those who gravitate to "places" like CoV tend to be people
>who can't find a lot of local social support.
>
>[Mermaid]The simple version of it being that the CoV can give me social
>support... gotcha.
>
>[henson]Part of the reason the murder rate in Western culture is so low
>compared to life in tribes is that we can expel disruptive people from
>social groups.
>
>[Mermaid]I am not sure I agree with that. Can you back that up?
Put "primitive tribe murder rate" in Google and read a few articles. The
high murder rate for primitives was an unpleasant surprise for a lot of
people when studies showed this to be the case.
>I am also not so sure that tribes are less effective in expelling
>disruptive people from social groups. The law and the legal system, the
>western version of the tribal council, has loopholes like a slice of swiss
>cheese. I'd argue that its exactly the opposite of what you are suggesting.
The tribe *is* the social group. Being expelled is an effective death
sentence in really primitive situations, i.e., if the tribe expelling a
person doesn't kill the person, some tribal enemy usually does. I wasn't
even thinking of the legal system in Western culture, it suffices that a
person can be expelled from a community (for example a town) and *not* be
killed as an outlaw. This system was still in effect, though perhaps
starting to fade, at during the time Greece was the cultural center what
became the western world.
snip
Keith Henson
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #35 on: 2003-10-05 01:53:25 » |
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I suggest that this is a much better last word:
22:42:21 Mermaid people are rude online ..more so than in real life..because...well...because they can and get away with it too
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=chatlog2;channel=%23virus;date=2003-10-03;time=03:;start=900;max=60
The point of the Disciplinary Process is that if implemented appropriately, they cannot.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #36 on: 2003-10-05 11:04:26 » |
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[Hermit]I suggest that this is a much better last word:
22:42:21 Mermaid people are rude online ..more so than in real life..because...well...because they can and get away with it too
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=chatlog2;channel=%23virus;date=2003-10-03;time=03:;start=900;max=60
The point of the Disciplinary Process is that if implemented appropriately, they cannot.
[Mermaid]Are you saying now that if people sign up on CoV they cant be RUDE? They'd be disciplined if they *sound* rude to someone else? Rudeness...which btw is awfully subjective....is not "desired and acceptable behaviour"?
Rudeness, imo, can be anything from personal expressions to irresponsible parenting ... insecurity or inferiority complex...or just a creative mind or even intelligence...it can be out of ignorance as much as it can be out of spite. The reaction to rude behaviour is what monitors rudeness. Not a document that instructs people how to behave.
I thought DiP was for serious and potentially deadly disruptions? I would really like to know what I have signed up for....
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Re: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #37 on: 2003-10-05 11:35:10 » |
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[henson]Put "primitive tribe murder rate" in Google and read a few articles. The high murder rate for primitives was an unpleasant surprise for a lot of people when studies showed this to be the case.
[Mermaid] http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/crime71.html > I picked this one from the slew of google results.
It is not my argument that primitive tribes are not violent. My argument is that primitive tribes probably have much lower violence than non primitive tribes. Would you consider Texas frying thousands of 'criminals' every year as 'violence'? In that case, we can also consider tribe sanctioned killings as murder and hence violence.
On the other hand, its extrapolation that 'proves' that primitive tribes are more violent than non primitive tribes. How many cops and troops and lawyers and laws do the non primitive societies have? Are those figures extrapolated too? There are far fewer policing agencies in tribal societies than in non primitive socities. Extrapolate, if you want....Is there any specific study or paper that you have in mind? Because what I see online hasnt convinced me.
[henson]The tribe *is* the social group. Being expelled is an effective death sentence in really primitive situations, i.e., if the tribe expelling a person doesn't kill the person, some tribal enemy usually does.
[Mermaid]So are you saying that expelling a tribe member is an act of violence? And so primitive societies are more violent than non primitive societies?
[henson]I wasn't even thinking of the legal system in Western culture, it suffices that a person can be expelled from a community (for example a town) and *not* be
killed as an outlaw. This system was still in effect, though perhaps starting to fade, at during the time Greece was the cultural center what became the western world.
[Mermaid]Thats not how it works now. Felons cannot vote. So there is taxation without representation. Capital punishment is alive and well. Incarceration for petty crimes is high. Most important of all, poverty is the most violent form of punishment upon most of the disadvantaged. By contrast, white collar crimes go unnoticed which makes the punishment of the lower strata of society doubly violent. We should consider all factors before we compare tribal and modern societies. Extrapolation of one set of figures is bad science...err.i mean.. statistics...
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Re: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #38 on: 2003-10-05 12:24:58 » |
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At 09:35 AM 05/10/03 -0600, you wrote:
>[henson]Put "primitive tribe murder rate" in Google and read a few
>articles. The high murder rate for primitives was an unpleasant surprise
>for a lot of people when studies showed this to be the case.
>
>[Mermaid] http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/crime71.html > I picked this one
>from the slew of google results.
>
>It is not my argument that primitive tribes are not violent. My argument
>is that primitive tribes probably have much lower violence than non
>primitive tribes.
That's just not factual. I can understand why you would not want to
believe it, since the news was met with a great deal of disbelief over the
period of time where it came out in a number of studies.
>Would you consider Texas frying thousands of 'criminals' every year as
>'violence'? In that case, we can also consider tribe sanctioned killings
>as murder and hence violence.
Of course. I am talking about rates, killings per 100k of population per
year. It is one of the things you have to compensate for when comparing
societies. There are relatively few killings by primitives, but there are
even fewer primitives. People who study in this area find that up to 25%
of the male population died from violence. Try PREHISTORIC WARFARE IN THE
AMERICAN SOUTHWEST Steven LeBlanc review here:
http://hallamericanhistory.com/americas/667.shtml
Or this about another of his books:
http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues03/may03/books.html
There is a good sum up here: http://www.johnhorgan.org/work12.htm Quoting
a bit,
"The next tribe to be anointed noble savages were the Kung of Africa's
Kalahari Desert, who were celebrated in the book The Harmless People and
the movie The Gods Must Be Crazy. Actually, the murder rate among the Kung
is four times higher than in the U.S."
snip
(Re Yanomamo)
"Chagnon's most disturbing finding was a correlation between killing and
reproduction. Like most tribal societies, the Yanomamo are polygamous. Men
who killed the most had two times as many wives and three times as many
children as non-killers, according to Chagnon."
snip
"The best news I've got for you is that our world is much less violent than
it used to be. In the 20th century, about 100 million men, women, and
children died from war-related causes, including disease and famine. The
total would have been 2 billion if our rates of violence had been as high
as in the average primitive society. In other words, things are getting
better."
>On the other hand, its extrapolation that 'proves' that primitive tribes
>are more violent than non primitive tribes. How many cops and troops and
>lawyers and laws do the non primitive societies have? Are those figures
>extrapolated too? There are far fewer policing agencies in tribal
>societies than in non primitive socities. Extrapolate, if you want....Is
>there any specific study or paper that you have in mind? Because what I
>see online hasnt convinced me.
See above.
>[henson]The tribe *is* the social group. Being expelled is an effective
>death sentence in really primitive situations, i.e., if the tribe
>expelling a person doesn't kill the person, some tribal enemy usually does.
>
>[Mermaid]So are you saying that expelling a tribe member is an act of
>violence? And so primitive societies are more violent than non primitive
>societies?
See above
>[henson]I wasn't even thinking of the legal system in Western culture, it
>suffices that a person can be expelled from a community (for example a
>town) and *not* be
>killed as an outlaw. This system was still in effect, though perhaps
>starting to fade, at during the time Greece was the cultural center what
>became the western world.
>
>[Mermaid]Thats not how it works now. Felons cannot vote. So there is
>taxation without representation. Capital punishment is alive and well.
>Incarceration for petty crimes is high. Most important of all, poverty is
>the most violent form of punishment upon most of the disadvantaged.
I don't see how your comments are responsive to the statement you are
replying to.
>By contrast, white collar crimes go unnoticed which makes the punishment
>of the lower strata of society doubly violent. We should consider all
>factors before we compare tribal and modern societies. Extrapolation of
>one set of figures is bad science...err.i mean.. statistics...
You don't need to convince me about white collar crimes. Don't forget I am
a refugee because I tried to expose crimes in this class.
Keith Henson
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #39 on: 2003-10-05 13:37:26 » |
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Crime: Murders (per capita) Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap
1. Colombia 0.65 per 1000 people
2. South Africa 0.5 per 1000 people (Interpol data, reflects 59 murders per 100'000 ie 0.59 and Nedbank data indicates that South African farmers now suffer the highest murder rate in the world at 274 per 100'000.
3. Jamaica 0.33 per 1000 people
4. Venezuela 0.33 per 1000 people
5. Russia 0.2 per 1000 people
6. Mexico 0.13 per 1000 people
7. Lithuania 0.1 per 1000 people
8. Estonia 0.1 per 1000 people
9. Latvia 0.1 per 1000 people
10. Belarus 0.1 per 1000 people
11. Ukraine 0.09 per 1000 people
12. Papua New Guinea 0.09 per 1000 people
13. Kyrgyzstan 0.09 per 1000 people
14. Thailand 0.08 per 1000 people
15. Zimbabwe 0.08 per 1000 people
16. Zambia 0.08 per 1000 people
17. Moldova 0.08 per 1000 people
18. Seychelles 0.07 per 1000 people
19. Costa Rica 0.06 per 1000 people
20. Poland 0.06 per 1000 people
21. Georgia 0.05 per 1000 people
22. Uruguay 0.05 per 1000 people
23. United States 0.05 per 1000 people
24. Bulgaria 0.04 per 1000 people
25. Armenia 0.04 per 1000 people
26. Yemen 0.04 per 1000 people
27. India 0.04 per 1000 people
28. Azerbaijan 0.03 per 1000 people
29. Finland 0.03 per 1000 people
30. Dominica 0.03 per 1000 people
31. Slovakia 0.03 per 1000 people
32. Romania 0.03 per 1000 people
33. Portugal 0.02 per 1000 people
34. Malaysia 0.02 per 1000 people
35. Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of 0.02 per 1000 people
36. Mauritius 0.02 per 1000 people
37. Hungary 0.02 per 1000 people
38. Korea, South 0.02 per 1000 people
39. Slovenia 0.02 per 1000 people
40. Iceland 0.02 per 1000 people
41. France 0.02 per 1000 people
42. Czech Republic 0.02 per 1000 people
43. Australia 0.02 per 1000 people
44. Canada 0.02 per 1000 people
45. Chile 0.02 per 1000 people
46. United Kingdom 0.01 per 1000 people
47. Italy 0.01 per 1000 people
48. Spain 0.01 per 1000 people
49. Germany 0.01 per 1000 people
50. New Zealand 0.01 per 1000 people
51. Tunisia 0.01 per 1000 people
52. Netherlands 0.01 per 1000 people
53. Norway 0.01 per 1000 people
54. Denmark 0.01 per 1000 people
55. Ireland 0.01 per 1000 people
56. Indonesia 0.01 per 1000 people
57. Switzerland 0.01 per 1000 people
58. Greece 0.01 per 1000 people
59. Hong Kong 0.01 per 1000 people
60. Japan 0.01 per 1000 people
61. Saudi Arabia 0 per 1000 people
62. Qatar 0 per 1000 people
Total 180,304
Weighted Avg 0.06 per 1000 people
Perhaps Mermaid would like to try to rearrange these countries to show that the more tribal countries have lower murder rates.
There is one country where a direct contrast between Western Government and Tribalism is possible. This is of course South Africa. In the 44 years from 1950 to 1993, there was an average of 7036 murders per year. This covers the entire "apartheid period". About 60% of those murders were black on black, many in "hostel wars" which were purely tribal. However, since the ANC took office, the murder rate in South Africa has averaged 47 882 per year (Interpol Data) - and due to the South African governments "moratorium" on crime statistics (and lack of statisticians), we no longer have data on the tribal affiliations of murderers and their victims. More information available at http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html
Murder = "Unlawful killing". Judicial executions are not generally regarded as unlawful though they might be distasteful.
And while I generally agree that the death penalty should be abolished: Source: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGACT500052003?open&of=ENG-392
Quote:During 2002, at least 1,526 prisoners were executed in 31 countries and at least 3,248 people were sentenced to death in 67 countries. These figures include only cases known to Amnesty International; the true figures are certainly higher.
In 2002, 81 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran and the USA. In China, the limited and incomplete records available to Amnesty International at the end of the year indicated that at least 1,060 people were executed, but the true figure was believed to be much higher. At least 113 executions were carried out in Iran. Seventy-one people were executed in the USA. |
Given a total of 71 executions in the entire USA, perhaps Mermaid would like to reconsider her "Texas frying thousands of 'criminals' every year" claim.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #40 on: 2003-10-05 13:45:51 » |
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[Hermit 1] I suggest that this is a much better last word:
Quote:| 22:42:21 Mermaid people are rude online ..more so than in real life..because...well...because they can and get away with it too |
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=chatlog2;channel=%23virus;date=2003-10-03;time=03:;start=900;max=60
[Hermit 1] The point of the Disciplinary Process is that if implemented appropriately, "they" cannot.
[Mermaid 2] Are you saying now that if people sign up on CoV they cant be RUDE? They'd be disciplined if they *sound* rude to someone else? Rudeness...which btw is awfully subjective....is not "desired and acceptable behaviour"?
[Mermaid 2] Rudeness, imo, can be anything from personal expressions to irresponsible parenting ... insecurity or inferiority complex...or just a creative mind or even intelligence...it can be out of ignorance as much as it can be out of spite. The reaction to rude behaviour is what monitors rudeness. Not a document that instructs people how to behave.
[Mermaid 2] I thought DiP was for serious and potentially deadly disruptions? I would really like to know what I have signed up for....
[Hermit 3] Despite your brave defense of rudeness, it does not make for an attractive environment or pleasant reading. It also leads to rapid escalation. The difficulty of defining subjective issues is precisely why we don't have "laws" but instead rely on "reconciliation committees" to determine whether people have crossed the borderlines. The primary intent of the Disciplinary Process being to ensure that the CoV is an attractive and pleasant environment. People who wish to be "creatively rude" to others, need to seek other places to do it.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Kalkor
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RE: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #41 on: 2003-10-05 14:34:22 » |
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[Hermit]
As for the rest of what you said, I recommend again that you read
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/crime/windows.htm and consider the
implications for an online forum.
[Kalkor]
Hypothesis: The results of the study in the above url can be applied to our
online forum with similar results.
Experimental: Apply similar community policing procedures to our forum and
observe the results.
Sounds like we're in the process of this experiment. So far, what are the
results? Lets treat this like an experiment rather than just "consider the
implications". It sounds like, as a community, we've already
1) Considered the implications
2) Theorized that a similar process would be beneficial to the church
3) Enacted a similar process
4) Recieved experimental results
So what are they? Aside from, at least one person, saying "I didn't vote to
have policemen walking the streets of my town, I don't like seeing them"
Have we given it enough time to see if the results bear out the hypothesis?
And if so, what is the conclusion?
Kalkor
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #42 on: 2003-10-05 15:34:38 » |
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{Hermit 2] Nicely explained Kalkor.
[Kalkor 1] Sounds like we're in the process of this experiment. So far, what are the results? Lets treat this like an experiment rather than just "consider the implications". It sounds like, as a community, we've already:
1) Considered the implications
2) Theorized that a similar process would be beneficial to the church
3) Enacted a similar process
4) Recieved experimental results
[Hermit 2] I'd say that while we have enacted the process, we haven't yet really applied it. In other words, we are currently somewhere around your step 3. Tuesday's discussion will take us closer yet. I suggest that it is arguable that simply having a process available (even though there is clearly a lot of confusion about what the process is) has already resulted in generally better communications. Hopefully in the fullness of time we will be able to look back and determine whether the process works or not. If it doesn't, it will change.
[Kalkor 1] So what are they? Aside from, at least one person, saying "I didn't vote to have policemen walking the streets of my town, I don't like seeing them"
[Hermit 2] As already noted, the votes cast in multiple polls have indicated a strong preference for "order and control." The fact that there are some objections to this process even before its full implementation is not terribly surprising. All changes tend to draw reactions. And my first post on this thread left out an "awful lot of context." For which, my apologies. Then again, that is the purpose of these discussions, is it not.
[Kalkor 1] Have we given it enough time to see if the results bear out the hypothesis? And if so, what is the conclusion?
[Hermit 2] You have my opinion above. Does anybody disagree?
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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JD
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RE: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #43 on: 2003-10-05 18:54:27 » |
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Hermit
Sent: 04 October 2003 22:56
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
[Jonathan Davis] You failed to understand me and your post is too far off
the mark to help you get it. I will exert my influence elsewhere.
[Hermit] Is this meant to communicate something?
[Jonathan 2] Yes, you failed to understand me. Your post is too far off the
mark to help you get it. I will exert my influence elsewhere.
[Jonathan Davis] I suppose you might say that I know of a certain member who
has activated the disciplinary procedure for what I consider a petty and
possibly spiteful reasons. I consider this abuse. The system is obliged to
consider this persons claims, however silly, and that ties up resources of
reputable members. I would like to see the system improved to limit this
sort of situation.
[Hermit] Have you ever heard of the "broken Windows theory"? It is a proven
police methodology. It is because of this that I would like to see every
infraction, however small, dealt with by means of the "Disciplinary
Process." Usually, when valid grounds are established, only resulting in an
"acknowledgement." This makes it not only unneccesary for a person
perceiving a "swipe" at them to respond, but also means that they too will
consider an on-list response carefully, lest it result in a "Disciplinary
Process" being instituted for them.
[Hermit] Within a very short time, the members will tidy up their acts, and
our environment will become a much more pleasant place for all, enabling us
to pursue our larger goals more effectively. A highly recommended article
which explains the psychology behind this is "Broken Windows"
(http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/crime/windows.htm).
[Jonathan 2] I like the article on my blog last year [
http://www.ukpoliticsmisc.org.uk/weblog/archive/2002_10_25_old.php#85601645
] . Coincidentally, It was October of 2002. Just under one year ago.
I recommend you read a criticism of the theory (for balance):
Policing Disorder - Can we reduce serious crime by punishing petty offences?
[url]http://www.bostonreview.net/BR27.2/harcourt.html[/url].
[Jonathan Davis] On a personal level, your apparent deep involvement in the
system makes me distrust it.
[Hermit] The request was to keep the replies impersonal, so your comment is
off-topic. In addition, while you are welcome to hold any opinions you like,
expressing negative opinions of other members is not part of what this
community stands for.
[Jonathan 2] I will decide for myself what this community stands for.
Furthermore, my comment was a personal aside to you about an attitude of
mine. It is a relevant truth that may aid your understanding of me and so
further our goals of empathy, vision and reason.
Kind regards
Jonathan
---
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Hermit
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #44 on: 2003-10-05 20:03:19 » |
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[Hermit 2] Have you ever heard of the "broken Windows theory"? It is a proven police methodology. It is because of this that I would like to see every infraction, however small, dealt with by means of the "Disciplinary Process." Usually, when valid grounds are established, only resulting in an "acknowledgement." This makes it not only unneccesary for a person perceiving a "swipe" at them to respond, but also means that they too will consider an on-list response carefully, lest it result in a "Disciplinary Process" being instituted for them.
[Hermit 2] Within a very short time, the members will tidy up their acts, and our environment will become a much more pleasant place for all, enabling us to pursue our larger goals more effectively. A highly recommended article which explains the psychology behind this is "Broken Windows" (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/crime/windows.htm).
[Jonathan Davis 3] I like the article on my blog last year http://www.ukpoliticsmisc.org.uk/weblog/archive/2002_10_25_old.php#85601645 . Coincidentally, It was October of 2002. Just under one year ago.
[Hermit 4] A competent article. Incidently, as you would have found had you gone there, the same article as I refered to. And the first to appear in a google search. So a lot of people obviously feel the same way about it.
[Jonathan Davis 3] I recommend you read a criticism of the theory (for balance): Policing Disorder - Can we reduce serious crime by punishing petty offences? http://www.bostonreview.net/BR27.2/harcourt.html.
[Hermit 4] Also a good article, but not relevant to the circumstances here. Rather than a crackdown to prevent "serious crime" (which fortunately can't happen here), we have established a "community-librarian (to extend the parable - police is so authoritarian) relationship exercise" with the intent not of "arresting" more "offenders", but of reducing the inevitable progression of "disorder" to "more disorder" and by intervening early, reducing the need to invoke the only effective sanctions - other than community disapproval - we have - to dissassociate the community from the offender either through silencing or disownment.
[Jonathan Davis 1] On a personal level, your apparent deep involvement in the system makes me distrust it.
[Hermit 2] The request was to keep the replies impersonal, so your comment is off-topic. In addition, while you are welcome to hold any opinions you like, expressing negative opinions of other members is not part of what this community stands for.
[Jonathan Davis 3] I will decide for myself what this community stands for.
[Hermit 4] The community has already decided this, and instituted a process to determine if those standards are being adhered to - and appropriate responses when a determination is made that they are not.
[Jonathan Davis 3] Furthermore, my comment was a personal aside to you about an attitude of mine. It is a relevant truth that may aid your understanding of me and so further our goals of empathy, vision and reason.
[Hermit 4] A letter sent to some 1600+ people, and appearing on a public BBS is never personal, and nobody needs to be clairevoyant to determine your "attitude" or the fact that public spats, particularly when completely unneccesary due to your assertion that it was "all in fun" (i.e. deliberate) are extremely unattractive.
[Hermit 4] Please stop.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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