Author
|
Topic: The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus (Read 5751 times) |
|
Mermaid
Archon
Posts: 770
Reputation: 8.43
Rate Mermaid
Bite me!
|
 |
Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #15 on: 2003-10-03 17:30:31 » |
 |
Perhaps it may be helpful to focus on one paragraph of "The Disciplinary Process"
Quote:[2] Membership
[2.1] A person does not become a member of a community simply by asserting that they are such a member, but also by the community accepting the membership of that person. In the absence of more particular rules, the only way to determine who is a member of the community is a statement of affiliation by a putative member and the acceptance of this assertion by the community, in otherwords, a community of the willing. |
[Mermaid]Why do you keep quoting from the disciplinary process when it is the very process that I am questioning?
[Hermit]I suggest that this paragraph is a key to understanding what the entire "non-punishment" oriented regime we have instituted is about.
[Mermaid]Errr..I *dont* want to understand the 'non punishment' regime..personally, i think its a misnomer...you cant threaten us with 'conform...or else...............' and then call it non-punishment.
[Mermaid]Once again..whatever it may be..I want to know WHAT the church is going to do for me. What do I gain from membership to CoV? Can I get a simple answer for this?
[Hermit]Please consider for a moment that nobody has a "right" to be a member of a church or other such "community of the willing."
[Mermaid]Rights cannot exist without duties. Can duties exist without rights?
[Hermit]Not only does an outsider have a choice as to whether or not they wish to join with a community, but the community has the choice as to whether or not to accept that person as a member of the community.
[Mermaid]We have the Meridion for this purpose. I dont see the point of the disciplinary process. The advantage of the Meridion over the DiP is that members figure it out for themselves how they should behave. They can see how their bad behaviour and good behaviour affects them. Being that the Meridion is not perfect yet, maybe more energy should be invested in refining the Meridion(considering that it already has 50 members) and fixing its glitches instead promoting DiP.
[Hermit]From this it follows, that when the community withdraws it's assent from a member, temporarily or permanently, this is not in any way an infringement of the member in question's "rights", unless a "right" to be a member of the community exists.
[Mermaid]Eh?
[Hermit]However, as we have seen, no "right" to be a member does exist.
[Mermaid]I think its very clear that nobody has the 'right' to be a member of the community, but when a person has already signed up...especially so with the rep system...the member *does* have rights. Except in cases of extreme bad behaviour when the sheriff steps in, there is no need to discipline the member.
[Mermaid]But since you bought it up...I really want to know....with all this 'desired and expected behaviour', since DiP implies that there is a great pressure on the member to conform...where is the pressure on CoV to deliver more than a chat room and a bbs forum to its members. I absolutely believe that there is more that CoV can offer. It can offer purpose, goals, a means to combine all our strengths and ideas to create something better...*if* we get our heads together...*if* we discuss it....lets have a chat about that first. Then we can hold a chat about DiP.
[Hermit]So when our community acts to protect itself, its members and good order, by withdrawing its countenance, facilities or acceptance from a member, the community is not "punishing" the member, it is simply disassociating itself from the behaviour, and in extreme cases, the person that the community perceives as not being in unity with it.
[Mermaid]I hear. We already has the sheriff doing that job. It is unlikely that an unpleasant specimen will emerge again in CoV. Examples have been made from previous unpleasantness. Everyone knows the consequences. If people insist on bad behaviour, I think its pretty telling and quite suicidal.
[Mermaid]Cant you see? You are telling people why CoV wont want them..why they will be rejected...how they should behave..instead of telling them how they are unique..how they can be useful and how they can get better and make others better....Its like telling a child that you'd spank him if he doesnt get good grades..instead of telling the child that you'd reward him if he gets good grades. I vote for not spanking and collective rewards. If you think spanking will work more than reward, then maybe we should have a chat about *that* instead. Anything but how and why you will administer the spanking.
[Mermaid]CoV members are not children. We are mature and on most days, rational adults. We can see reason. We can weigh the consequences of our actions. We have vision. We can create a better world. I'd bet most of us dont want to conform. Its probably precisely because we didnt want to conform that we sought out a place like CoV. Demanding that we conform to any kind of 'desired and acceptable behaviour' is an insult to our intelligence. Regardless of the language...I protest. We know who they are....the silly ones..the childish ones..the not so serious ones..the malicious ones...the wonderful thing is we are diverse..and we need them all..the mean, the nasty, the kind, the hasty, the wise, the funny....its not our behaviour that brought us together..it was our beliefs...
[Mermaid]What we CANNOT ignore is the fact that we have no common goals. We are united but we dont know why we are together or what we are going to do with our combined strengths. I really think we need to talk about that. It is a lot more urgent than DiP. If you would use your energy in figuring that out and working with people like me(and many others like me) who are interested in finding a way to make good of the strength in our current numbers instead of investing time and energy in DiP, I am sure a lot of people will appreciate it. Think about it.
|
|
|
|
|
hkhenson@rogers...
Adept
Gender: 
Posts: 130
Reputation: 7.91
Rate hkhenson@rogers...
back after a long time
 
|
|
Re: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #16 on: 2003-10-03 21:04:06 » |
|
At 03:30 PM 03/10/03 -0600, Mermaid wrote:
snip
>[Mermaid]Once again..whatever it may be..I want to know WHAT the church is
>going to do for me. What do I gain from membership to CoV? Can I get a
>simple answer for this?
I don't know if you will consider this a simple answer or not . . . . A
major function of any church/community is social support. Humans are
deeply social primates. We simply don't do well isolated, in fact,
isolation drives some people right over the brink into insanity. (There
are reports about a monkey that is permanently mentally damaged by a
relatively short period of isolation. This is not true of all primates;
orangutans in the wild are a lot less social than our closer relatives.)
Anyway . . . Humans evolved in tribes. In western culture we just don't
have them. Thus many different kinds of groups, everything from amateur
acting to sports leagues to political parties form as substitutes for
tribes. I know a lot of people who are caught up in the Society for
Creative Anachronism or related historical groups.
We are all plugged into some degree of social support, family, people at
work, friends local and ones you know on the net. These substitute tribe
members are the next step away from close family, you can ask and get
certain kinds of support from other members and you are expected to provide
such support to other members who ask. Lacking a shoulder to cry on in
times of personal troubles is a serious life deficiency.
Western culture discarded traditional tribes long ago in favor of larger
political units. With fewer children per families, family has become less
of a source of social support as well. The propensity of people to move
long distances is rough on social support networks as well. People who go
a long distance to college and then take a job far from home lose their
social support network twice in early life and have to rebuild it. If I
remember correctly (it has been many years) that was part of what the
Unabomber gripped about. (Google Unabomber, take first link.)
Tribe and extended family overlap--though tribes are usually
larger. Tribes used to be of a certain linage (usually paternal) and in a
certain location. Because of this and common language/culture, tribe
members had a lot in common.
Those who gravitate to "places" like CoV tend to be people who can't find a
lot of local social support. Typically this is because they just are not
much like the people around them. They are more educated, usually very
intelligent, usually alienated from conventional religions (and sometimes
their families) and out on the bleeding edge in half a dozen
directions. While most of them acknowledge being humans, they are deeply
unsatisfied with the human condition.
A related reason people gravitate to CoV and other net forums is that they
are so obnoxious IRL that they have few other choices. :-)
>[Hermit]Please consider for a moment that nobody has a "right" to be a
>member of a church or other such "community of the willing."
Part of the reason the murder rate in Western culture is so low compared to
life in tribes is that we can expel disruptive people from social
groups. I remember hearing about an impressive case where someone had
deeply disrupted the "peace and love" hippy community in Tucson in the late
60s. The community coped with the problem in the traditional way; i.e.,
she was killed. (It is rare for woman to be that disruptive, but it can
happen.)
snip
[Hermit]So when our community acts to protect itself, its members and good
order, by withdrawing its countenance, facilities or acceptance from a
member, the community is not "punishing" the member, it is simply
disassociating itself from the behaviour, and in extreme cases, the person
that the community perceives as not being in unity with it.
>[Mermaid]I hear. We already has the sheriff doing that job. It is unlikely
>that an unpleasant specimen will emerge again in CoV. Examples have been
>made from previous unpleasantness. Everyone knows the consequences. If
>people insist on bad behaviour, I think its pretty telling and quite suicidal.
>
>[Mermaid]Cant you see? You are telling people why CoV wont want them..why
>they will be rejected...how they should behave..instead of telling them
>how they are unique..how they can be useful and how they can get better
>and make others better....Its like telling a child that you'd spank him if
>he doesnt get good grades..instead of telling the child that you'd reward
>him if he gets good grades. I vote for not spanking and collective
>rewards. If you think spanking will work more than reward, then maybe we
>should have a chat about *that* instead. Anything but how and why you will
>administer the spanking.
>
>[Mermaid]CoV members are not children. We are mature and on most days,
>rational adults. We can see reason. We can weigh the consequences of our
>actions.
Unfortunately enough disruptive types are not nearly so much rational as
_rationalizing_. I have discussed before the really perverse psychological
trap where people feel rewarded by attention for disruptive behavior. This
is a problem in real life, especially with small children, but partly
because of the high multiplier, and partly because of the missing real time
emotional feedback, it is far more of a community-destroying problem on the
net.
>We have vision. We can create a better world. I'd bet most of us dont want
>to conform. Its probably precisely because we didnt want to conform that
>we sought out a place like CoV. Demanding that we conform to any kind of
>'desired and acceptable behaviour' is an insult to our intelligence.
>Regardless of the language...I protest. We know who they are....the silly
>ones..the childish ones..the not so serious ones..the malicious ones...the
>wonderful thing is we are diverse..and we need them all..the mean, the nasty,
My life has been massively disrupted by a cult that *trains* people to be
malicious, mean and nasty. I am *not kidding.* Google TR-L outflow.
"Intelligence Specialist Training Routine - TR L... SPECIALIST TRAINING
ROUTINE - TR L. Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement
with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data ...
www.planetkc.com/sloth/sci/TR-L.html"
If you think you need them, I can give you explicit instructions on how to
get them on your case. (You would gain considerable merit by diverting
part of the cult's attention from others.) I can also point you to a
certain news group . . . .
>the kind, the hasty, the wise, the funny....its not our behaviour that
>brought us together..it was our beliefs...
>[Mermaid]What we CANNOT ignore is the fact that we have no common goals.
I don't think this is logical since there is a conceptual overlap in what
people believe and what they have as goals. Perhaps you could provide a
few examples. I can certainly think of counter examples.
>We are united but we dont know why we are together or what we are going to
>do with our combined strengths. I really think we need to talk about that.
>It is a lot more urgent than DiP. If you would use your energy in figuring
>that out and working with people like me(and many others like me) who are
>interested in finding a way to make good of the strength in our current
>numbers instead of investing time and energy in DiP, I am sure a lot of
>people will appreciate it. Think about it.
Volunteer "tribes" like CoV are just that. Too many (and that's a small
number) unpleasant experiences and people pick up and leave. I understand
that there have been a number of times when disruptive people had the
effect of driving out the ones who could and did contribute.
The first goal of any organization is to persist. If it is small it also
needs to grow to a size compatible with its goals. Considering the implied
goals of a transhuman future, a CoV the size of the Catholic Church might
not be large enough. Solving the disruption problem isn't sufficient, but
it is necessary step in the right direction.
I really appreciate your posting on this subject. I need such a goad to
get me to organize these thoughts.
Thanks,
Keith Henson
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
|
|
|
|
|
Mermaid
Archon
Posts: 770
Reputation: 8.43
Rate Mermaid
Bite me!
|
|
Re: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #17 on: 2003-10-03 22:25:46 » |
|
[henson][...]Those who gravitate to "places" like CoV tend to be people who can't find a lot of local social support.
[Mermaid]The simple version of it being that the CoV can give me social support... gotcha.
[henson]Part of the reason the murder rate in Western culture is so low compared to life in tribes is that we can expel disruptive people from social groups.
[Mermaid]I am not sure I agree with that. Can you back that up? I am also not so sure that tribes are less effective in expelling disruptive people from social groups. The law and the legal system, the western version of the tribal council, has loopholes like a slice of swiss cheese. I'd argue that its exactly the opposite of what you are suggesting.
[henson]I remember hearing about an impressive case where someone had deeply disrupted the "peace and love" hippy community in Tucson in the late 60s. The community coped with the problem in the traditional way; i.e., she was killed. (It is rare for woman to be that disruptive, but it can happen.)
[Mermaid]ahem
[henson]Unfortunately enough disruptive types are not nearly so much rational as _rationalizing_. I have discussed before the really perverse psychological trap where people feel rewarded by attention for disruptive behavior. This
is a problem in real life, especially with small children, but partly because of the high multiplier, and partly because of the missing real time emotional feedback, it is far more of a community-destroying problem on the net.
[Mermaid]At this point, CoV's active membership is so tiny that the sheriff can handle it. On the other hand, the tedious processes like DiP, disownment etc are very very unpleasant especially because of the language used. A glance at the material tells you that it is lifted straight off religious material or legal texts with certain words substituted.
[Mermaid]What are the "church" activities? Disruption of church activities is something that needs 'discipline'. When we have no clear idea about "church" activities, what are we disciplining? What is it that remains as our 'activities' in the church? The bbs activities and the irc chat(some of which..the scheduled chats,esp, are not casual). This is so aimless and 'fun' that the topics is not really different from any other online forum where, btw, you are not disciplined. What are disciplined about anyways? Choice of words? Languge? Political inclinations? Racist attitudes? Personal preferences? And when it doesnt concern church activities(which we are not clear about anyways), why should people be disciplined about it?
[henson]My life has been massively disrupted by a cult that *trains* people to be malicious, mean and nasty. I am *not kidding.* Google TR-L outflow. [...] If you think you need them, I can give you explicit instructions on how to
get them on your case. (You would gain considerable merit by diverting part of the cult's attention from others.) I can also point you to a certain news group . . . .
[Mermaid]First you mention about the woman being killed in Az and now you are ready to give me explicit instructions to divert cult's attention from others. I'll bake cookies for you!!! Get off my back!!
>[Mermaid]What we CANNOT ignore is the fact that we have no common goals.
[henson]I don't think this is logical since there is a conceptual overlap in what people believe and what they have as goals.
[Mermaid]I agree. So we need to figure out what the goals are. To compete against religions is our stated goal, but *how* do we compete? We dont know. We havent done anything. When we embark on that and *then* when someone becomes disruptive, I'll submit to DiP and 'confrom'. Until then, I am merely in the company of people who share my beliefs(to a certain extent). I dont think thats enough to coerce, however gently, conformity re 'acceptable behaviour'.
[henson]Perhaps you could provide a few examples. I can certainly think of counter examples.
[Mermaid]Examples of what?
[henson]Volunteer "tribes" like CoV are just that. Too many (and that's a small number) unpleasant experiences and people pick up and leave.
[Mermaid]Its called a shakedown and is very useful.
[henson]Solving the disruption problem isn't sufficient, but
it is necessary step in the right direction.
[Mermaid]Well..we had JoeDees and then metahuman who were subject to the disciplinary process. It was the 'Sheriff's decision. The proposed DiP involves too many people and imo, very suspect in terms of the process. Disruption in the CoV, as I explained above, is limited now to ..well..etiquette. Noone is giving CoV bad publicity(we are not well known), nobody is misrepresenting CoV(we dont have a public voice), nobody is embezzeling cash(we are piss poor)...I can go on..but that would only reflect how pathetically limited we are by our own devices(DiP, for example..which is only going to shut people up more..esp because of the fear of saying the wrong thing...there is already a system to get rid of the misbehaving ones..*because* it is simple..i.e. you cross a line, you will be silenced..period. end of story...so people are unlikely to abuse the system...not to mention that its quicker and more efficient....you see, people dont have the options to wave their flapdoodle around and get away with murder..a very easy scenario with the DiP...as its a council..anyone person can bring someone down if he doesnt like that person..or save a real troublemaker's ass if he is a good friend..i.e. abuse of a system..all this for net etiquette seems a little excessive...) when it comes to real action in the real world.
|
|
|
|
|
JD
Adept
Gender:
Posts: 542
Reputation: 7.39
Rate JD
|
|
RE: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #18 on: 2003-10-04 07:36:25 » |
|
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Hermit
Sent: 03 October 2003 17:39
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
[Jonathan 2] Part of my problem with all this talk of 'discipline' - pace
your assurances - is that I am worried it is a tool for manipulation that
may be used in bad faith (abused).
[Hermit 3] If you are saying that....
SNIP
You failed to understand me and your post is too far off the mark to help
you get it. I will exert my influence elsewhere.
I suppose you might say that I know of a certain member who has activated
the disciplinary procedure for what I consider a petty and possibly spiteful
reasons. I consider this abuse. The system is obliged to consider this
persons claims, however silly, and that ties up resources of reputable
members. I would like to see the system improved to limit this sort of
situation.
On a personal level, your apparent deep involvement in the system makes me
distrust it.
SNIP
[Hermit 3] Jolly square of you old boy.
[Jonathan 3] Zounds! I think the bugger meant "Big".
Regards
Jonathan
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
|
|
|
|
|
Blunderov
Archon
Gender:
Posts: 3160
Reputation: 8.90
Rate Blunderov
"We think in generalities, we live in details"
|
|
RE: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #19 on: 2003-10-04 10:07:33 » |
|
> At 03:30 PM 03/10/03 -0600, Mermaid wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >[Mermaid]Once again..whatever it may be..I want to know WHAT the
church
> is
> >going to do for me. What do I gain from membership to CoV? Can I get
a
> >simple answer for this?
[Blunderov]
<q>
[Anne]
My idea of good company, Mr. Elliot, is the company of clever, well
informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I
call good company.
'You are mistaken,' said he gently, 'that is not good company, that is
the best.
</q>
(Persuasion, Jane Austen.)
Best Regards.
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
|
|
|
|
|
Kid-A
Adept
Gender:
Posts: 133
Reputation: 7.53
Rate Kid-A
|
|
Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #20 on: 2003-10-04 10:23:53 » |
|
[Mermaid]Well..we had JoeDees and then metahuman who were subject to the disciplinary process. It was the 'Sheriff's decision. The proposed DiP involves too many people and imo, very suspect in terms of the process. Disruption in the CoV, as I explained above, is limited now to ..well..etiquette. Noone is giving CoV bad publicity(we are not well known), nobody is misrepresenting CoV(we dont have a public voice), nobody is embezzeling cash(we are piss poor)...I can go on..but that would only reflect how pathetically limited we are by our own devices(DiP, for example..which is only going to shut people up more..esp because of the fear of saying the wrong thing...there is already a system to get rid of the misbehaving ones..*because* it is simple..i.e. you cross a line, you will be silenced..period. end of story...so people are unlikely to abuse the system...not to mention that its quicker and more efficient....you see, people dont have the options to wave their flapdoodle around and get away with murder..a very easy scenario with the DiP...as its a council..anyone person can bring someone down if he doesnt like that person..or save a real troublemaker's ass if he is a good friend..i.e. abuse of a system..all this for net etiquette seems a little excessive...) when it comes to real action in the real world.
I think the CoV needs to concentrate on its goals and the spread of new benificial memes, all this disownment stuff is giving me the jitters, even though it is important, I do think Mermaid has a good point considering how few active members there are.
|
You're probably wondering why i'm here, well so am I, so am I.
|
|
|
Kalkor
Magister
Gender:
Posts: 109
Reputation: 6.94
Rate Kalkor
Kneading the swollen donkey...
|
|
RE: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #21 on: 2003-10-04 12:28:34 » |
|
[Hermit]Otherwise you would never have joined the BBS, because that would
have been hypocritical according to the following: Virus
is a collaborative project; if you subscribe to the ideas consider joining
us on the Virus BBS!
[Mermaid]How is it hypocritical? I am subscribing to the ideas shared by
many in CoV. I am subscribing to the bbs. I am not
subscribing to the disciplinary process. I am sure I share a lot of things
with many many people in this world. Some, I may not even
know. Some, I know and are outside of CoV. They dont impose any discipline
upon me. They dont ask me to conform.
[Kalkor]
Let me make sure I understand correctly here. Since this is a collaborative
project because we all agree on certain things, then we must agree on the
disciplinary process?
I can't decide if this is a fallacy of composition (the bricks used to make
the building are rectangles, therefore the building must be a rectangle), or
begging the question. Please clarify this for me, folks ;-}
Kalkor
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
|
|
|
|
|
Hermit
Archon
Posts: 4287
Reputation: 8.94
Rate Hermit
Prime example of a practically perfect person
|
|
Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #22 on: 2003-10-04 16:14:26 » |
|
"Why should I join the CoV?" Mermaid asks in the middle of an explanatory discussion about the instituted disciplinary process.
Hermit replies, mentioning this is off-topic and out of bounds for a discussion on the disciplinary process.
"No! Why did I join the CoV?" Mermaid demands to know.
Hermit replies again, mentioning this is off-topic and out of bounds for a discussion on the disciplinary process.
"You must tell me why I joined the CoV" Mermaid asserts, petulanty stamping her foot.
Hermit points to our invitation to those who agree with us (and the inverse is also true) and suggests that Mermaid must have joined because she agrees with our ideas.
Repeated ad nauseam.
Hermit goes fishing.
Time passes.
Kalkor leaps into the fray to defend Mermaid's off-topic and out of bounds strawman.
Hermit returns and replies.
The two things have, as I repeatedly tried to get through to the Mermaid, nothing to do with each other except possibly that she introduced the one to a thread about the other.
Perhaps you could winch her back to earth.
Have fun
|
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
|
|
|
Hermit
Archon
Posts: 4287
Reputation: 8.94
Rate Hermit
Prime example of a practically perfect person
|
|
Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #23 on: 2003-10-04 16:37:13 » |
|
I replied at length, and stupidly lost it. Given the style shown in some of the replies I've had to date, I guess I have to simplify things in an appropriate scriptural fashion.
The Evolutionary Law of Socialising and Communities Explained
The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part I
Many people are at computers in a library. In comes an old Lady with a leaky colostomy bag. She sits at a computer and the fetid contents slowly dribble out. Everyone is forced away from the computers by the stench.
Eventually the entire building is condemned and pulled down.
The residents complain that nobody did anything effective to stop it and their library is in ruins. One female with a strident voice says it is all the Hermit's fault, although some fingers are pointed at a glowing entity shaking his head as he watches from a nearby street corner for not having reacted.
And the community has no library.
The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part II
Many people are at computers in a library. In comes an old Lady with a leaky colostomy bag. She sits at a computer and the fetid contents slowly dribble out. Everyone is forced away from the computers by the stench. The other visitors take turns beating her up with their fists. She replies by climbing into them with her handbag. Somebody grabs a kids baseball bat and people take turns smashing her kneecaps with it. The little old lady pulls out a 387 magnum and starts blowing people away. The sheriff arrives with a bazzooka and levels the building.
The residents complain that the process was too brutal, the old lady should have been helped to adjust, and the slightly glowing sheriff was far too indiscriminate.
And the community has no library.
The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part IIIa
Many people are at computers in a library. In comes an old Lady with a leaky colostomy bag. She sits at a computer and the fetid contents slowly dribble out. Everyone is forced away from the computers by the stench, except for one old fart who can't smell a thing as he has a vile pipe clenched between his teeth.
The visitors head to the town hall to take register a petition to ban colostomy bags. The petition is handed out and over the next two weeks, votes are collected banning colostemy bags in the library. Eventually a law is passed, and the residents return to the library to discover that when the liquor from the leaky colostomy bag had soaked the old fart's briefcase, destroying several years of work, he and the old lady had set to at each other and eventually killed one another. The corpses had putrified and eventually burst, coating the entire building with such a vile smell that it was eventually condemned by the health department and pulled down.
The residents complain that nobody did anything fast enough, that there should have been a law against it in the first place, and that their library is in ruins. One female with a strident voice says it is all the Hermit's fault (although the Hermit is unaccountably missing). Some fingers are pointed at a glowing entity shaking his head as he watches from a nearby street corner for not having reacted.
And the community has no library.
The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part IIIb
As above.
A new library is erected, protected from leaky colostomy bags by a shiny new regulation.
Many people are at computers in the new library. In comes an old man carrying something in a brown paper bag. Everyone imagines he is a wino, as he keeps placing the bag between his legs as he seems to think about whether to have a sip - and then replaces it on the table under the gaze of many curious eyes. They realize how wrong they were, when he accidently knocks the bag over as he replaces it on the table, releasing a spray of urine over the entire area from his portable urinal. Everyone is forced away from the computers by the stench, except for one ancient 600lb female who can't tell the difference between her perspiration and the old man's urine.
The visitors head to the town hall to take register a petition to ban portable urinals.
Yes, you can figure out how this ends. Eventually the difference between sweat and urine must soaked through to the old woman m and the two ancients killed one another in the ensuing fracas. The corpses putrified and eventually burst, coating the entire building with such a vile smell that it was eventually condemned by the health department and pulled down.
The residents complain that nobody did anything fast enough, that there should have been a law against it in the first place, and that their library is in ruins. One female with a strident voice says it is all the Hermit's fault, although some fingers are pointed at a glowing entity shaking his head as he watches from a nearby street corner for not having reacted.
And the community has no library.
The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part IIIc
As above.
A new library is erected, protected from leaky colostomy bags and portable urinals by a shiny new regulation.
Many people are at computers in the new library. In comes a philosopher suffering from acute diarrhoea... yes, you know how it goes by now. Eventually condemned by the health department and pulled down.
The residents complain that nobody did anything fast enough, that there should have been a law against it in the first place, and that their library is in ruins. One female with a strident voice says it is all the Hermit, who is unaccountably missing's fault, although some fingers are pointed at a glowing entity shaking his head as he watches from a nearby street corner for not having reacted.
And the community has no library.
The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part IV
The community has gone through many iterations. They decide to try another. They institute a rule that nobody may make the library unusable for others - and that the librarians should decide on the level of intrusion permissable. Some residents vote for this idea, and the idea is passed. Most of the residents don't even realise the rules are there. Life goes on.
Many people are at computers in the new library. In comes an old Lady with a leaky colostomy bag. She sits at a computer and the fetid contents slowly dribble out. Everyone is forced away from the computers by the stench. A librarian comes over and asks the old lady to leave until she has cleaned up. Eventually, everyone else returns. Later the old lady returns.
[Hermit 8] Was the old lady punished?
[Hermit 8] No. She breached the social conventions.
[Hermit 8] Did the old lady break a rule?
[Hermit 8] I looked at our library's rules. They say nothing about leaky colostomy bags (or portable urinals). I bet your library regulations don't mention them either.
[Hermit 8] Was this unfair?
[Hermit 8] Of course not. Her presence penalized the community which asked her to go away until she had changed bags, had a shower and put on clean clothes.
And this community still has a library.
Some of those who voted for the rules appear to decide that possibly they are too draconian. Others who didn't vote say things which prove that they don't understand the rules. A meeting is called for by one of the librarians to explain the rules to them. A female, with a strident voice, who didn't vote, says it is is a dastardly conspiracy by the Hermit (who may have been seen lurking in quiet places talking to a slightly glowing character) to harm her and that we should not discuss the rules, but rather the reasons why people go to libraries instead.
|
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
|
|
|
Hermit
Archon
Posts: 4287
Reputation: 8.94
Rate Hermit
Prime example of a practically perfect person
|
|
Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #24 on: 2003-10-04 17:06:30 » |
|
[Hermit 6] Perhaps it may be helpful to focus on one paragraph of "The Disciplinary Process"
<snip>
[Mermaid 7] Why do you keep quoting from the disciplinary process when it is the very process that I am questioning?
[Hermit 8] Because the topic is not "future goals" but rather "own goals" and the "Disciplinary Process" properly proposed, voted for and accepted by the congregation of the CoV and scheduled for an explanatory discussion next Tuesday.
[Hermit 6] I suggest that this paragraph is a key to understanding what the entire "non-punishment" oriented regime we have instituted is about.
[Mermaid 7 ] Errr..I *dont* want to understand the 'non punishment' regime..personally, i think its a misnomer...you cant threaten us with 'conform...or else...............' and then call it non-punishment.
[Hermit 8] Perhaps if you "wanted to understand it", you might? Please reread "The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part IV" (in [ Hermit, "Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus", Reply #23, 2003-10-04 ] ) until you do.
[Mermaid 7] Once again..whatever it may be..I want to know WHAT the church is going to do for me. What do I gain from membership to CoV? Can I get a simple answer for this?
[Hermit 8] I'm not a mind reader.
[Hermit 8] Who forced you to join us? How are you forced to stay here?
[Hermit 8] I seriously doubt that we are going to be paying you to stay here or vote you a pension. I'm probably not even going to thank you for your "helpful" suggestions on this thread.
[Hermit 8] Your question is off-topic and out of bounds for this thread.
[Hermit 6]Please consider for a moment that nobody has a "right" to be a member of a church or other such "community of the willing."
[Mermaid 7.1] Rights cannot exist without duties. Can duties exist without rights?
[Hermit 8] You are a Virian Magister in good standing, accepted by the community. This gives you a conditional right to use our facilities (#virus on IRC, the maillist, the BBS (including the Cathedral), editing rights on the Wiki and the right to Vote). Should you no longer be in good standing, for whatever reason, some or all of your access to our facilities may be limited in order to protect the interests of the whole community. Again, think of it in terms of "The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part IV" (in [ Hermit, "Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus", Reply #23, 2003-10-04 ]
[Hermit 6] Not only does an outsider have a choice as to whether or not they wish to join with a community, but the community has the choice as to whether or not to accept that person as a member of the community.
[Mermaid 7]We have the Meridion for this purpose.
[Hermit 8] On a point of order we have both Meridion and "The Dsciplinary Process"
[Mermaid 7] I dont see the point of the disciplinary process.
[Hermit 8] Please reread "The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Parts III and IV" (in [ Hermit, "Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus", Reply #23, 2003-10-04 ] ) until you do.
[Mermaid 7] The advantage of the Meridion over the DiP is that members figure it out for themselves how they should behave. They can see how their bad behaviour and good behaviour affects them.
[Hermit 8] Please reread "The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part III" until you understand the limitations of Meridian (in [ Hermit, "Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus", Reply #23, 2003-10-04 ] ).
[Mermaid 7] Being that the Meridion is not perfect yet, maybe more energy should be invested in refining the Meridion (considering that it already has 50 members) and fixing its glitches instead promoting DiP.
[Hermit 8] While this thread is not about Meridion, and this is therefore off topic and out of bounds, I will take the opportunity to mention that asides like this are not helpful. Positive criticism identifies the problems you perceive and makes suggestions as to how to resolve them. If I have not committed suicide before then, I will try to introduce a discussion next week for Meridion. I strongly recommend that you write a paper containing your positive criticism in anticipation of this now. That way you will have tiime to think about what you wish to say.
[Hermit 6] From this it follows, that when the community withdraws it's assent from a member, temporarily or permanently, this is not in any way an infringement of the member in question's "rights", unless a "right" to be a member of the community exists.
[Mermaid 7] Eh?
[Hermit 8] If you had read the next line before making silly noises you might have comprehended it.
[Hermit 8] There is no "right" to be a member of a community (you agree with this in [Mermaid 7.2] infra.). So when a community withdraws the membership it granted you [assent] they don't affect your "rights" at all. Is that simple enough to comprehend?
[Hermit 6] However, as we have seen, no "right" to be a member does exist.
[Mermaid 7.2] I think its very clear that nobody has the 'right' to be a member of the community, but when a person has already signed up...especially so with the rep system...the member *does* have rights.
[Hermit 8] Yet in [Mermaid 7.1] above you agreed, "Rights cannot exist without duties." Your duty is to act as a responsible member of the community. When the community regards you as having voided this compact, then you have forfeited those "rights".
[Mermaid 7] Except in cases of extreme bad behaviour when the sheriff steps in, there is no need to discipline the member.
[Hermit 8] The Sherif has hung up his gun, so this is again off topic and out of bounds. However, if it allows you easier comprehension, pretend that the Sheriff now has deputies with similar powers. Because the Sheriff was not paid to do this messy job, received no thanks for it anyway, and could not be available 24x7. And who can blame him. Which is why sheriff's have deputies.
[Hermit 8] More seriously, sheriffs are called in when problems are already serious. Which has to result in serious consequences for those involved. But problems should be dealt with before they have a chance to grow to that scale. Which is why this was introduced in the "Disciplinary Process".
[Hermit 8.2] We already are suffering growth pangs. If we succeed on a larger scale, which hopefully will happen if the Disciplinary Process means that we don't have to rebuild the "library" every six months, we will need something scaleable or this will happen again and again. The replacement system for the sheriff, "The Disciplinary Process" is designed to be scaleable. Instead of specific laws, with absolute results, we now have more discretion and much finer grained responses. The intent of the "Disciplinary Process" is reconciliation, not blasting the hell out of people. Returning to the forum may usually be accomplished by a public apology to the forum and a promise not to repeat an offense (naturally a repeat of such an offense after an acknowledgment will be regarded much more seriously). If you have not understood this paragraph, please reread the "The Parable of the Colostomy Bag" (in [ Hermit, "Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus", Reply #23, 2003-10-04 ] ) until you do.
[Mermaid 7] But since you bought it up...
[Hermit 8] What did I "bring up"?
[Mermaid 7] I really want to know....with all this 'desired and expected behaviour', since DiP implies that there is a great pressure on the member to conform...where is the pressure on CoV to deliver more than a chat room and a bbs forum to its members. I absolutely believe that there is more that CoV can offer. It can offer purpose, goals, a means to combine all our strengths and ideas to create something better...*if* we get our heads together...*if* we discuss it....lets have a chat about that first. Then we can hold a chat about DiP.
[Hermit 8] When we get through defining the basic housekeeping, we will resume this discussion. It seems to me that it is now several weeks or months away - at least if it depends on obtaining your understanding of everything already worked through. Not that this is a major disadvantage, as it will ensure that even the lame, deaf and halting will be intimately familiar with every subtlety of what is going on.
[Hermit 8] As others in this forum have, to my certain knowledge, been working on what the CoV can or should do, since at least 1998 (including very thorough discussions on education), there is obviously no hurry. When we resolve all the nuances and irrelevancies that everyone wishes to raise and I have some time available, I will work on establishing the previous material in an accessible format.
[Hermit 8] Nevertheless, on this thread, this issue remains off topic and out of bounds.
[Hermit 6] So when our community acts to protect itself, its members and good order, by withdrawing its countenance, facilities or acceptance from a member, the community is not "punishing" the member, it is simply disassociating itself from the behaviour, and in extreme cases, the person that the community perceives as not being in unity with it.
[Mermaid 7] I hear. We already has the sheriff doing that job. It is unlikely that an unpleasant specimen will emerge again in CoV. Examples have been made from previous unpleasantness. Everyone knows the consequences. If people insist on bad behaviour, I think its pretty telling and quite suicidal.
[Hermit 8] In this "very nasty man's" opinion (Ref [ Mermaid, "Re:Debate Challenge #2", Reply #11, 2003-10-02 ] you are quite palpably wrong. Other examples abound in the logs and on the BBS (including further examples in that post). In any case, this issue was dealt with in [Hermit 8.2] supra, and remains off-topic and out of bounds.
[Mermaid 7.3] Cant you see? You are telling people why CoV wont want them..why they will be rejected...how they should behave..instead of telling them how they are unique..how they can be useful and how they can get better and make others better....Its like telling a child that you'd spank him if he doesnt get good grades..instead of telling the child that you'd reward him if he gets good grades. I vote for not spanking and collective rewards. If you think spanking will work more than reward, then maybe we should have a chat about *that* instead. Anything but how and why you will administer the spanking.
[Hermit 8] No. We are establishing the "Virian rules of Procedure" - something it is usual to do before you begin, but fortunately, it is never too late to reinvent yourself in an evolutionary organization.
[Hermit 8] As I have repeatedly shown, unless a member chooses to be spanked, there is no "punishment" that can be applied. If you can think of "rewards", perhaps you could suggest them. Brownie points? Gold stars? Virian of the Week? You will mail out cookies to people who play nice? You will donate the money to buy people book prizes? As requested in the cover letter, if you want to make suggestions, please make them concrete.
[Mermaid 7] CoV members are not children. We are mature and on most days, rational adults. We can see reason. We can weigh the consequences of our actions. We have vision. We can create a better world. I'd bet most of us dont want to conform. Its probably precisely because we didnt want to conform that we sought out a place like CoV. Demanding that we conform to any kind of 'desired and acceptable behaviour' is an insult to our intelligence. Regardless of the language...I protest. We know who they are....the silly ones..the childish ones..the not so serious ones..the malicious ones...the wonderful thing is we are diverse..and we need them all..the mean, the nasty, the kind, the hasty, the wise, the funny....its not our behaviour that brought us together..it was our beliefs...
[Hermit 8] We have seen the result of 8 years of that which you advocate. In consequence, the BBS is filled with examples which prove that Virians are no different from other people. Without clear rules of play, we spend our time bickering and as in a septic tank, a few big pieces float to the top. This is not attractive to the wider audience we would like to attract, nay, need to attract, in order to accomplish our goal of distributing our memeplex. It doesn't form a picture of anything more attrative than any other memeplex. If we wish to convince others that the Virian Virtues are a worthwhile ideal, we need to demonstrate it. Right now we don't. The Disciplinary Process is designed to establish an environment which we can be proud to invite others to visit - yet provide the flexibility to express creativity and intelligence in a disciplined way. If this loses us a few members, it will be more than made up for by not experiencing periodic "purges." In addition, we anticipate that showing the benefit of a rational (as opposed to chaotic approach) will result in a rapid upswelling of both numbers and quality.
[Mermaid 7] What we CANNOT ignore is the fact that we have no common goals. We are united but we dont know why we are together or what we are going to do with our combined strengths. I really think we need to talk about that. It is a lot more urgent than DiP. If you would use your energy in figuring that out and working with people like me(and many others like me) who are interested in finding a way to make good of the strength in our current numbers instead of investing time and energy in DiP, I am sure a lot of people will appreciate it. Think about it.
[Hermit 8] Asked and answered. Repeatedly. Please go to our home page and read "About". Notice a section called "Goal." Right, the one I repeatedly referenced earlier in this thread.
[Hermit 8] Let me save you the trouble.
Virus was originally created to compete with the traditional (irrational) religions in the human ideosphere with the idea that it would introduce and propagate memes which would ensure the survival and evolution of our species. The main advantage conferred upon adherents is Virus provides a conceptual framework for leading a truly meaningful life and attaining immortality without resorting to mystical delusions.
[Hermit 8] Looks like a "common goal" to me.
[Hermit 8] Apropos of something, if we are to have meaningful discussions, then we need some common rules before we try to seek "common" anything else. Which is why this material remains Off-Topic and Out-of-Bounds on this thread.
|
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
|
|
|
Hermit
Archon
Posts: 4287
Reputation: 8.94
Rate Hermit
Prime example of a practically perfect person
|
|
Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #25 on: 2003-10-04 17:55:58 » |
|
[Jonathan Davis] You failed to understand me and your post is too far off the mark to help you get it. I will exert my influence elsewhere.
[Hermit] Is this meant to communicate something?
[Jonathan Davis] I suppose you might say that I know of a certain member who has activated the disciplinary procedure for what I consider a petty and possibly spiteful reasons. I consider this abuse. The system is obliged to consider this persons claims, however silly, and that ties up resources of reputable members. I would like to see the system improved to limit this sort of situation.
[Hermit] Have you ever heard of the "broken Windows theory"? It is a proven police methodology. It is because of this that I would like to see every infraction, however small, dealt with by means of the "Disciplinary Process." Usually, when valid grounds are established, only resulting in an "acknowledgement." This makes it not only unneccesary for a person perceiving a "swipe" at them to respond, but also means that they too will consider an on-list response carefully, lest it result in a "Disciplinary Process" being instituted for them.
[Hermit] Within a very short time, the members will tidy up their acts, and our environment will become a much more pleasant place for all, enabling us to pursue our larger goals more effectively. A highly recommended article which explains the psychology behind this is "Broken Windows".
[Jonathan Davis] On a personal level, your apparent deep involvement in the system makes me distrust it.
[Hermit] The request was to keep the replies impersonal, so your comment is off-topic. In addition, while you are welcome to hold any opinions you like, expressing negative opinions of other members is not part of what this community stands for.
|
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
|
|
|
Hermit
Archon
Posts: 4287
Reputation: 8.94
Rate Hermit
Prime example of a practically perfect person
|
|
Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #26 on: 2003-10-04 18:26:45 » |
|
[Mermaid] A glance at the material tells you that it is lifted straight off religious material or legal texts with certain words substituted.
[Hermit] Err, your glance misfired. The material posted was not "lifted straight off anything." The material in the Disownment Process was, as is acknowledged, based on the methodology of the Society of Friends, but was extensively reworked with input by a number of Virians. The material in the Disciplinary Process was completely independently developed - again, with input from many Virians, some with legal experience; but this is not particularly important except in establishing clarity, as the "Disciplinary Process" is not a legalistic process at all.
[Hermit] Many of the ideas behind the the Disciplinary Process are based on extensive study of the orders for community living, developed by societies as varied as the Dutch of the 1600 and 1700s, through the "Community of the Poor" at Q'umram, to the great religious orders of the 1000 to 1700 CE period, as well as the "Community Orders" of the Cathars, Waldensians and Albigensians. While the "Disciplinary Process" of the CoV attempts to capture the spirit of their concepts (which were psychologically well founded), it had to be written from scratch, not least because the above were written in obsolete languages which I doubt many members of the CoV follow, but more importantly, because they relied largely on religious concepts, dealt with communities with very well defined roles and responsibilities, and were written to deal with and guide everyday activities which are quite alien to us.
[Hermit] Nevertheless, they were useful, as most focused on the effective development and maintainance of communities and embody several thousand years of experience in managing groups of people. As we are attempting to develop a community, and we are an evolutionary body, we don't mind where we find ideas that might help us succeed. If we do as well as even the shortest lived of those communities (about 20,000 members in the Q'umram community before its final destruction after 400 years, by Rome in 135CE), we will be doing much better than we have managed to do to date.
|
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
|
|
|
Hermit
Archon
Posts: 4287
Reputation: 8.94
Rate Hermit
Prime example of a practically perfect person
|
|
Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #27 on: 2003-10-04 18:45:03 » |
|
[henson]Volunteer "tribes" like CoV are just that. Too many (and that's a small number) unpleasant experiences and people pick up and leave.
[Mermaid]Its called a shakedown and is very useful.
[Hermit] Mermaid, when many of the people leaving are useful to the community, their departure is not "useful". When the disruptions are sufficiently frequent as to prevent the achievement of critical mass, then they are anything but "useful". When members of the community have expressed reluctance to introduce others, due to the ongoing virulence, strident disagreement and disorder, this is not "useful". When some members attempt to build something attractive, and others attempt to disrupt it until those initiating the process give up, this prevents any evolution except the downward variety - and is not "useful".
[Hermit] If you put your personal issues aside and examine the above as a general statement about communities, I suspect you would be forced to agree with it. So denying its truth about this community appears extremely irrational.
|
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
|
|
|
rhinoceros
Archon
Gender:
Posts: 1318
Reputation: 8.40
Rate rhinoceros
My point is ...
|
|
Re: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #28 on: 2003-10-04 18:45:56 » |
|
[Kalkor]
Let me make sure I understand correctly here. Since this is a
collaborative project because we all agree on certain things, then we
must agree on the disciplinary process?
I can't decide if this is a fallacy of composition (the bricks used to
make the building are rectangles, therefore the building must be a
rectangle), or begging the question. Please clarify this for me, folks
;-}
[rhinoceros]
I am afraid we'll have to improvish and come up with a new fallacy; "the
fallacy of big words". It is theoretically possible that we'll have to
scold or kick out of the forum a potential disruptive prick who spoils
the games at some time in the future (never happened as far as I know).
But there is no need that said prick must have subscribed to anything.
He can be scolded or kicked out anyway.
As long as it is a technicality, a well-thought procedure for doing just
that safely and effectively, there is no problem.
A practical problem is... what would you all say if you go to an online
forum and one of the first things you hear is: "Here are the virtues,
here are the sins, and look... if you don't behave you will be
disciplined or kicked out." Depends on who you are. Some will say "Oh,
ok. I want so badly to be a member of this cool community I just clicked
on..." Others will scowl and click on something else. Can you do a quick
psychological profile of the two kinds of persons? Perhaps a guess at
their credentials too? The first case is the ones we are going to get.
My opinion: Keep it a technicality, not a policy. We don't want the URL
to appear in other sites as a "no comment" joke link.
____________________________________________________________________
http://www.freemail.gr - δωρεάν υπηρεσία ηλεκτρονικού ταχυδρομείου.
http://www.freemail.gr - free email service for the Greek-speaking.
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
|
|
|
|
|
Mermaid
Archon
Posts: 770
Reputation: 8.43
Rate Mermaid
Bite me!
|
|
Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #29 on: 2003-10-04 19:06:58 » |
|
[Hermit]The Parable of the Colostomy Bag.
[Mermaid]Very nice. I know I asked you to think about it, but you shouldnt have thought about it in such detail.
Anyways, after reading all that you had to say, I have decided that a discussion on the goals of Virus and preferably a timetable/schedule for the year 2004 is more urgent than a discussion on DiP.
Anyone who disrupts CoV will be kicked in the butt. Period. That should work for now.
btw...
[Hermit]The material posted was not "lifted straight off anything." The material in the Disownmnet Process was, as is acknowledged, based on the methodology of the Society of Friends, but was extensively reworked with input by a number of Virians.
[Mermaid]Who are they? I have questions for them too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
