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Topic: Getting a reputation (Read 2042 times) |
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ElvenSage
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Posts: 288
Reputation: 7.48
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Think for yourself, question authority.
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #15 on: 2003-09-25 02:36:25 » |
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I've been thinking about this a lot lately when I've found the time too. I think it would be a good idea to have a formal CoV meeting to discuss the reputation system as well as other issues among the CoV. We can also use this chat session to get some feedback on the E-zine, as well as possibly get some people to volunteer for articles and such.
Which brings me to another thing. I want to write for the E-Zine, but I found myself caught up on what I want to write about. So, I was wondering if any of you would like to see a music review section? Sure a music section isn't going to be extremely intellectual and such, but I think I would be good at the type of thing, and I'm constantly listening to new music, by new artists, with different styles. I'd try not to be too bias, but to be honest I do not venture into rap, pop, or county very often. Classical, New Age, Metal, Techno, and Reggae is the majority of what I listen too. For my first though, I'd really like to write a review on the new CD by A Perfect Circle. Opinions?
(note: I know I've been a bit angst-filled and edgy latey, to those who were on the receiving end, I really am sorry.)
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Safe from the pain and truth and choice and other poison devils
See.. they don't give a fuck about you, like i do.
Just stay with me, safe and ignorant,
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Kid-A
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #16 on: 2003-09-25 10:27:14 » |
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[ElvenSage]Which brings me to another thing. I want to write for the E-Zine, but I found myself caught up on what I want to write about. So, I was wondering if any of you would like to see a music review section? Sure a music section isn't going to be extremely intellectual and such, but I think I would be good at the type of thing, and I'm constantly listening to new music, by new artists, with different styles. I'd try not to be too bias, but to be honest I do not venture into rap, pop, or county very often. Classical, New Age, Metal, Techno, and Reggae is the majority of what I listen too. For my first though, I'd really like to write a review on the new CD by A Perfect Circle. Opinions?
[Kid-A] I think that's a great idea ElvenSage, I didn't think anyone else listened to Reggae but it would appear that I was wrong. I'd be happy to help out with music reviews and stuff If you like, I like to stay ahead of the game somewhat.
Regards
Kid
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You're probably wondering why i'm here, well so am I, so am I.
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ElvenSage
Adept
Gender:
Posts: 288
Reputation: 7.48
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Think for yourself, question authority.
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #17 on: 2003-09-25 16:38:55 » |
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Well if they do not, they should. How can you not feel good after listening to some reggae? Having a partner in reviewing would be a wonderful idea. Maybe we could review the same album, so that people can get multiple opnions? Maybe altranate from issue to issue, you pick an album, then I will. Sounds all good to me.
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Safe from the pain and truth and choice and other poison devils
See.. they don't give a fuck about you, like i do.
Just stay with me, safe and ignorant,
Go back to sleep
Go Back to sleep
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kirksteele
Anarch
Posts: 74
Reputation: 3.67
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I have never logged in.
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #18 on: 2003-09-26 16:04:43 » |
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hello time for me to be a denizen of well repute, i guess. so here i am.
bid away fello raters and we'll see how I benefit from felloratio.
kirkafreakinsaurus wrecks
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"Howdy pawdna. Yeee-freakin-haw!! We got us another good ole boy in da White Wash"
-just shoot me
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Hermit
Archon
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Prime example of a practically perfect person
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #19 on: 2003-09-26 20:06:44 » |
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Okey dokey, once and future archvector (and very arch you could be too, as I recall). I've opened the bidding on you as a pillar. Will you be comfortable standing up there in the thin air? How did the song go? It's a long, long way to fall...
Apropos of something, when using the system, just rate people as how you see their value to the CoV. Trying to adjust the pecking order is something the system does automatically simply because there are now enough of us voting for it to be very difficult for any one member to change another's ratings. And it is much easier to squelch the reputations of others downstream of you to boost them or yourself. Which means that trying to play tit-for-tat and other political games is quickly spotted and results in the player sinking rapidly in the esteem of their peers. Attempting to maximize your own score is a fools game, as those around will notice such efforts and you will probably end up lower on the tree than you would otherwise be (easier to push people down than lift them up).
I recommend penalizing members who do not vote, do not rate others and do not participate in some or all of our forums, but that is a personal recommendation, not a rule.
Regards
Hermit
PS The following two fragments may interest some here. The first is a shell script to produce the second, which is simply a cvs file of all the information relating to reputations and voting. The simplest way to use it is to simply import it into a spreadsheet.
Please do not run the script more frequently than once a day, as it imposes a severe server load.
Code:
#!/bin/sh
#
#
#Returns in CVS format to r, sorted by Reputation:
#userName, Reputation, Influence, Equity, userID, Board Name
#
wget -O - [url=http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?action=repIndex]http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?action=repIndex[/url] | sed -n 's!.*<a href=.*user=\([^>]*\)>\([^<]*\)</a>.*userID=\([0-9]*\)>\([.0-9]*\)</a>.*q=e.*>\([.0-9]*\)</a>.*right>\([.0-9]*\).*!\2,\4,\5,\6,\3,\1!p' | sed 's![ ]!!g' | sort -t , -k 2nr,2 > repIndex
#
# Returns reputation pages
#
cat repIndex | cut -d , -f 5 | sed 's!\(.*\)!wget -O tmpvote [url=http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=;action=repProfile;userID=]http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=;action=repProfile;userID=[/url]\1!' > getRepVotes
#
# Clear files
#
rm -rf reps
rm -rf tots
touch reps
touch tots
#
# Get Individual Votes and Totals
#
while read line
do
rm -rf tmpvote
touch tmpvote
`$line`
cat tmpvote | sed -n 's!.*=right>[^<]*.*=right>\([^<]*\).*=right>[^<]*.*=right>\([^<]*\).*=right>[^<]*.*=right>\([^<]*\).*=right>[^<]*.*=right>\([^<]*\).*=right>[^<]*.*=right>\([^<]*\).*=right>[^<]*.*=right>\([^<]*\).*=right>[^<]*.*=right>\([^<]*\).*=right>[^<]*.*=right>\([^<]*\).*=right>[^<]*.*=right>\([^<]*\).*=right>\([^<]*\).*!\1,\2,\3,\4,\5,\6,\7,\8,\9,!p' >> reps
cat tmpvote | sed -n 's!.*total.*=right>\([^<]*\).*!\1!p' >> tots
done < getRepVotes
#
# Joins voting totals to distribution, replaces missing values with 0 and strips spaces
#
paste reps tots | sed 's![\t]!!g' | sed '$!N;s!\n!,!' | sed ':a s!^,!0,!;s!,,!,0,!g;ta' > repVotes
#
# Create single Reputation and Voting Data
#
paste -d , repIndex repVotes > repAll
#
# Format of RepAll
#
# userName, Reputation, Influence, Equity, userID, Board Name,\
# How User Rated Others 1..9, Total \
# How Others Rated User 1..9, Total
#
# Get poll history (how many votes placed) for all voters.
#
wget -O - [url=http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?action=voteIndex]http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?action=voteIndex[/url] | sed -n 's!.*<a href=\(.*=voteResults;[^>]*\)>\([^<]*\).*!\1!p' | wget -O - -i - | sed -n 's!.*Voters: \([^<]*\).*!\1!p' | sed 's!\([^,]*\),!\1\n!g' | sed 's! !!g' | sort -k 2,2 | sed -n ':x;p;n;/./bx;:z;n;/./!bz;i\' | sort | uniq -c > pollData
#
# Append Poll Voting History to repAll
#
echo "BBSName","Reputation","Influence","Equity","ID","SystemName",1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,"Tot",1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,"Tot","Polls" > VirianDb
while read line
do
echo $line,0`grep \`echo $line | /bin/cut -d , -f 1\`$ pollData | /bin/cut -f 1 | sed 's![ ]!!g'` >> VirianDb
done < repAll
# Format of VirianDb
#
# userName, Reputation, Influence, Equity, userID, Board Name,\
# How User Rated Others 1..9, Total \
# How Others Rated User 1..9, Total \
# Number of times User has voted
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<<<<<Just Cut and Paste From Below This Line To the End of The File And Save it As VirianDb.cvs>>>>
Code:
BBSName,Reputation,Influence,Equity,ID,SystemName,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,Tot,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,Tot,Polls
DavidLucifer,8.6648,35.36,15.25,1,admin,0,1,1,0,6,16,9,11,4,48,0,0,0,1,1,0,1,8,34,45,032
rhinoceros,7.9836,18.23,7.86,418,rhinoceros,0,0,1,2,13,8,11,10,4,49,1,0,0,0,5,1,8,9,17,41,032
JakeSapiens,7.8267,15.65,6.75,1404,JakeSapiens,2,0,0,0,12,10,9,10,6,49,0,0,1,1,3,6,7,7,14,39,027
Kharin,7.8202,15.55,6.71,1788,Kharin,3,0,0,6,19,7,2,1,10,48,0,0,1,0,7,4,5,9,14,40,028
Zloduska,7.5306,11.73,5.06,28,kjseelna@students.wisc.edu,1,0,1,0,0,0,2,8,11,23,0,0,1,1,7,7,5,8,12,41,011
Hermit,7.2798,9.19,3.96,3,Hermit,2,2,1,5,11,4,1,0,23,49,2,2,1,5,5,2,3,6,17,43,032
WalterWatts,7.1585,8.17,3.52,4,Walter,0,0,0,0,25,2,2,5,13,47,0,0,0,0,10,5,4,12,10,41,032
Blunderov,6.9842,6.89,2.97,1830,Macheeide,0,1,1,0,0,0,3,6,10,21,0,1,0,0,16,6,2,6,6,37,026
Tywick,6.8562,6.09,2.63,419,Tywick,2,0,0,0,0,0,13,3,9,27,0,0,0,1,13,5,8,5,8,40,07
RavenBlack,6.8500,6.05,2.61,5,raven@ravenblack.net,1,0,0,1,6,8,2,3,3,24,0,0,0,1,10,4,5,4,6,30,026
Kalkor,6.7987,5.75,2.48,213,kalkor@kalkor.com,0,1,1,0,12,25,3,1,1,44,0,1,0,0,6,8,11,9,4,39,023
DrSebby,6.7946,5.73,2.47,13,drsebby@hotmail.com,0,0,4,0,4,4,0,4,5,21,0,0,0,1,12,5,13,4,7,42,030
Sat,6.7371,5.42,2.34,1604,Bolverker,1,1,1,9,13,9,3,3,6,46,0,0,1,3,14,2,7,7,5,39,029
ElvenSage,6.6903,5.18,2.23,1355,elvensage,0,1,0,7,23,3,8,1,5,48,1,0,0,1,5,11,4,9,10,41,031
Mermaid,6.6388,4.93,2.12,1877,Mermaid,0,0,0,0,18,4,10,7,10,49,0,0,0,0,3,0,4,3,8,18,018
thebricoleur,6.4721,4.19,1.81,1372,Bricoleur,0,0,1,0,21,9,3,4,3,41,0,0,0,1,18,3,5,4,3,34,027
JonathanDavis,6.3997,3.90,1.68,1337,limbic11,0,0,0,0,18,2,18,5,3,46,1,0,1,2,11,3,6,6,8,38,08
localroger,6.3443,3.70,1.60,1692,localroger,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,3,0,4,0,0,0,0,15,10,3,5,3,36,01
michelle,6.2984,3.54,1.53,161,michelle@barrymenasherealtors.com,0,0,0,3,18,4,3,6,7,41,0,0,0,1,14,7,5,8,3,38,0
LukianTheWizard,6.1925,3.19,1.38,1405,Lukian,0,0,0,0,16,9,4,9,9,47,0,0,0,0,16,7,7,4,3,37,09
irvken,6.1900,3.18,1.37,1356,irvken,4,5,5,5,4,4,5,4,4,40,0,0,0,2,12,11,6,3,3,37,023
crw,6.1796,3.15,1.36,1853,crw,0,0,0,1,16,16,6,1,1,41,0,0,0,1,12,1,8,2,2,26,0
Hermitess,6.1633,3.10,1.34,387,Hermitess,2,0,0,0,4,14,6,10,13,49,1,1,0,1,15,11,3,3,5,40,030
Flux,6.1216,2.98,1.28,1588,Flux,0,0,1,2,29,7,8,1,1,49,1,0,0,2,14,7,7,2,4,37,023
Ophis,6.1111,2.95,1.27,1567,Sophia,0,0,1,1,19,14,5,3,2,45,0,0,0,2,16,5,5,3,5,36,031
outlawpoet,6.0212,2.70,1.17,1823,outlawpoet,1,0,1,1,17,3,4,1,13,41,0,0,0,1,20,6,5,1,4,37,030
JerryLee,5.9563,2.54,1.09,42,jerrylee@alt.net,0,0,0,0,3,0,0,0,0,3,0,0,2,0,19,10,3,1,5,40,012
Kid-A,5.8623,2.31,1.00,1700,Kid-A,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,47,49,1,0,0,1,14,9,6,4,3,38,030
Casey,5.8198,2.22,0.96,159,cmanisca@hotmail.com,2,0,2,0,30,3,4,1,5,47,0,1,0,1,7,3,5,2,3,22,022
referent,5.7737,2.12,0.92,1831,referent,0,1,0,0,28,5,8,2,1,45,0,1,0,0,17,8,5,3,1,35,031
jubungalord,5.7393,2.05,0.89,1725,jubungalord,0,0,0,0,3,0,0,0,0,3,1,0,0,0,25,5,4,2,1,38,04
nrv8,5.7366,2.05,0.88,1452,nrv8,0,0,0,0,3,0,0,0,0,3,0,1,0,2,17,8,7,4,1,40,03
kirksteele,5.6886,1.95,0.84,1162,ksteele42@yahoo.com,0,0,0,1,38,3,1,4,2,49,0,0,0,0,1,0,3,1,4,9,0
se7en,5.6273,1.84,0.79,2,se7en,0,0,0,0,0,0,3,0,3,6,0,0,0,0,12,2,1,0,4,19,01
romanov,5.5924,1.78,0.77,1872,romanov,0,0,0,1,43,0,0,2,1,47,0,0,0,1,7,2,1,0,2,13,01
prometheus,5.5727,1.75,0.75,1801,prometheus,0,0,0,4,32,2,4,4,2,48,0,0,0,3,23,4,0,3,1,34,028
celindra,5.5290,1.67,0.72,1822,celindra,0,0,1,0,14,15,3,4,0,37,0,0,1,1,21,4,3,1,2,33,07
Feagwath,5.5216,1.66,0.72,141,aaron@fish.co.jp,2,0,0,0,0,1,3,1,3,10,0,1,0,1,16,8,1,0,4,31,020
Pedro,5.4178,1.50,0.65,1848,Pedro,0,0,1,0,1,0,6,9,2,19,0,0,1,1,21,6,1,0,2,32,0
Smucker,5.3376,1.39,0.60,1857,Smucker,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,2,2,6,0,0,0,2,17,2,0,0,2,23,022
goomba,5.2946,1.33,0.57,1824,goomba,0,0,2,1,35,3,2,0,1,44,0,0,2,0,19,10,1,1,2,35,030
tabsa,5.2219,1.24,0.54,1841,tabsa,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2,2,0,0,0,1,17,1,1,0,2,22,04
opsima,5.1642,1.17,0.51,184,coa@andrew.cmu.edu,0,0,0,1,24,0,8,4,6,43,0,0,0,1,25,2,0,0,2,30,026
Rhysenn,5.1642,1.17,0.51,1707,Rhysenn,0,0,0,0,22,9,3,2,0,36,0,1,0,3,25,4,2,0,1,36,011
athenonrex,5.1094,1.11,0.48,183,athenonrex@godisdead.com,0,0,0,0,3,0,0,0,0,3,2,1,0,1,21,8,4,1,1,39,01
RD,5.0475,1.05,0.45,175,jamesak23@yahoo.com,0,0,0,0,3,0,0,0,0,3,0,0,1,2,31,2,0,0,1,37,09
Warlock,5.0279,1.03,0.44,1856,Warlock104,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,1,0,0,0,2,17,2,1,0,1,23,026
Demon,3.5003,0.23,0.10,1737,Demon,4,1,1,2,18,0,7,3,2,38,7,2,5,3,13,2,5,1,1,39,02
JoeDees,3.0388,0.15,0.06,9,joedees@bellsouth.net,0,2,0,0,18,8,1,7,0,36,11,4,9,4,7,3,0,2,1,41,08
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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ElvenSage
Adept
Gender:
Posts: 288
Reputation: 7.48
Rate ElvenSage
Think for yourself, question authority.
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #20 on: 2003-09-26 23:23:23 » |
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I understand how the system works Hermit, I just think it would be a good diea if well all got into a group and discussed how effective it is, and how it can be improved as a system. I care about the CoV, and I want to do what is best for the CoV, and in doing that I have to discard my reputation from time to time. Caring about my reputation and being an "arch-vector" only fuels the need to play politics. I don't want that. To me that would create an undesirable system within the CoV. Undesirable because I'm not fond of holding back what I say or think because it might "harm my reputation" as many know. Undesirable because I think it can be used in very negitive ways and instead of attracting people, it has a lot of potential to push people out because they think differently then us.
BTW I'm glad I had that talk with you the other night Hermit, it helped a lot. I look forward to our next discussion.
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Safe from the pain and truth and choice and other poison devils
See.. they don't give a fuck about you, like i do.
Just stay with me, safe and ignorant,
Go back to sleep
Go Back to sleep
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Hermit
Archon
Posts: 4287
Reputation: 8.94
Rate Hermit
Prime example of a practically perfect person
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #21 on: 2003-09-27 02:23:23 » |
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Elven one, perhaps I should whisper that my reply was to Kirk Steele - who has just rejoined us, and who does not know all about the reputation system.... and providing some hints to others that they need to pay attention to their involvement in the rating system, because while it provides privileges, it is also a social commitment that requires attention. Members who don't fulfil their part of the bargain (to keep it relevent) cannot anticipate being favorably regarded by other members who do.
Noticing that nobody else had apparently noticed Kirk's post to the effect that he has joined our reputation system I chose to reply as I did, with a little friendly advice on using the system effectively.
The reputation system has many purposes. One is an attempt to regulate conduct without having to apply the draconian consequences of silencing or disownment which previously were our only remedies. We have established some formal and informal processes, and are in the process of establishing others, to ensure that our BBS, which is not just our church, meeting hall and neighborhood bar, but also our primary advertising of ourselves to the public, stops looking like a drunken brawling pit and serves as a friendly local bar where Virians can meet, teach learn and discuss things. You are welcome to join in that process, formally on the wiki, less formally on the BBS and informally on IRC. Just please don't tread on it.
As for the rest of your post, when choosing to "break the rules", where the "rules" are a necessary social contract, whether for reasons of conscience or otherwise, please understand that part of what you are doing when you do so, is agreeing to accept the consequences of your actions. Making a martyr of yourself is your choice, but should not usually be necessary - and will hopefully become less so as the systems evolve. Complaining about the consequences is just embarrassing - and objecting to the system itself is futile, when the key to changing it is in your hands as much as anyone else's. Note particularly that as I observed to Kirk, it is easier to move down than up, especially during the learning curve hopefully currently underway, as members discover that tit-for-tat, while a theoretically elegant strategy in a zero-sum game, does not necessarily result in an optimum strategy in a non zero-sum social environment - which this is.
My recommendation to you is that beyond rating, and keeping your ratings of others up to date, that you ignore the results of the reputation system except as a source of feedback of the community's reaction to whatever games you may choose to play - as others may well be - indeed probably are - playing different games. This is why the results are no longer in "reputation order.' It is easy to establish which way your reputation is moving, less easy to play hierarchical games this way. However, as you experiment and select your game strategies, you should be aware that the reputation system contains a few members very competent in game theory - and others who are less so - who will react in different ways to varying strategies, introducing a complex, time delayed, chaotic factor into any games you may choose to introduce. This will probably have the beneficial effect of (at least initially) breaking local plateau effects (later less so as active involvement itself will likely plateau). Further be aware that not everyone spends much time looking at the BBS and adjusting their factors - which makes it more dificult for you to establish whether changes were triggered by yourself or other factors. Without a dialog, such as this one, or those introduced by Kalkor, which might happen through the reputation system itself, through the Karma system (intended to rate posts), through the BBS or on IRC, it makes it more difficult to play the game effectively. Communicating (or miscommunicating) a strategy can be helpful in and of itself, and may result in feedback which is even more useful.
The system as implemented is flexible (I in fact feel still requiring too much intervention, but this can be added too as usage establishes preferences) and can handle most any games you choose to try. Don't criticise the system unless you can offer concrete suggestions, and please consider that real people have to spend real time dealing with changes and their implementations. Through the rating system, possibly in communications, including reading and updating documentation, as well as, potentially, at the software level. This burden still falls on to relatively few shoulders, and establishing how to spread the burden is another laborious, time-consuming and very tool and consensus dependent process. And the greater the load placed on those carrying it, the less likely we are to be able to spend time on evolution. One example of how not to do things is to start a project, leave in the middle of it, forcing others to pick up the pieces, and return later with new suggestions. The more predictable - and reliable - the players are, the easier it is for everyone else to plan their own time allocations effectively.
Kind Regards
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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ElvenSage
Adept
Gender:
Posts: 288
Reputation: 7.48
Rate ElvenSage
Think for yourself, question authority.
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #22 on: 2003-09-27 03:06:48 » |
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I see, I'm sorry about my last post. I thought it was directed to me. *Feels stupid for that one.*
Anyways, I've been using the system because it is in place. I haven't played any games with it really... although I will admit that at one point I did raise and lower a couple of people so I had a better understanding how they felt about me. Which I guess isn't the "right" way of using the system. I'm not really trying to play martyr. I'm just trying to say it as I see it. As I recall what David wants the most is for us to speak up and give our opinions. I understand that changes take human time, and if possible I will help with any changes that need to be made. I do not think we've had a nice formal discusion about the issue, and it seems most people are impartial about the reputation system. I just thought it would be good to hear from everyone on it, that is all. I think the "resistance is futile" statement might be true, but on the other hand, I do not think it should be that way. Doesn't that destroy helping the evolution of the CoV? Just a thought.
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Safe from the pain and truth and choice and other poison devils
See.. they don't give a fuck about you, like i do.
Just stay with me, safe and ignorant,
Go back to sleep
Go Back to sleep
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Hermit
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Posts: 4287
Reputation: 8.94
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Prime example of a practically perfect person
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #23 on: 2003-09-27 03:34:44 » |
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[ElvenSage] I think the "resistance is futile" statement might be true, but on the other hand, I do not think it should be that way.
[Hermit] It is true, but I don't think you should view it as something bad. As I said,
Quote:| objecting to the system itself is futile, when the key to changing it is in your hands as much as anyone else's. |
. Objecting is futile, but suggestion and possibly helping to implement changes is not. Those involved in the reputation system have the ability to change its form. All Virians are invited and in fact are strongly encouraged to join the reputation system and become involved in this process. Surely those who don't become involved are accepting it through their inaction and those who are able to determine its form should have no grounds for objection? So what is the point of objection?
[ElvenSage] Doesn't that destroy helping the evolution of the CoV? Just a thought.
[Hermit] I don't think so. As I see it, the reputation system is a mechanism for introducing self-directed evolutionary change. Everyone involved in the reputation system plays a role in determining how we evolve. All that the system has done is establish a collective, collaborative mechanism for determining the meaning of "fittest" and a methodology for evolving evolutionary strategies. I anticipate that our evolution will become faster, and vastly more rational in consequence of these changes. In addition, by instantiating a mechanism designed to allow us to present ourselves more effectively, we should see our growth increase dramatically. Which helps us to propagate our memeplex. Those actively involved in doing so, will hopefully see a very immediate reward, further encouraging the involvement of others in "helping our evolution."
Kind Regards
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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