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Topic: Getting a reputation (Read 2043 times) |
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rhinoceros
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My point is ...
  
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Getting a reputation
« on: 2003-09-20 16:36:01 » |
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I am writing this from a position of authority. Yes, I shit you not. I am Number 2 in the reputation system, second only to the legendary Lucifer who pays the bills among other things 
As it is, my vote on any issue has a value of almost 8 percent of the whole congregation.
How? It was easy. I just remained silent at a time when silence was the right thing to do. But things change and the requirements change as well. Some problems have been solved and several people from those who make things happen have been active again lately. So, the reputation ratings should change accordingly. Hmm... should they?
The reputation system came as an improvement to the previous "ownerocracy + kinetocracy" system, which had some disadvantages known to all. Instead of a rule of whoever has more time on their hands, we can have a rule of whoever makes things more interesting for the congregation. You only have to think of the pros and cons of everyone and give a rating.
Heh... now that I think of it, I'll probably stay at the top for a couple of years without doing anything. The system seems to lose momentum. I can see that new people who join the system get rated by only a dozen, so they don't have a chance. Then, their own ratings to others don't have much weight either.
Maybe if everyone visited the reputation rating page and the vote page at least once a week, say, every Monday... Bah, forget it.
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Blunderov
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"We think in generalities, we live in details"
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RE: virus: Getting a reputation
« Reply #1 on: 2003-09-20 17:24:38 » |
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Come to me you beamish boy
He chortled in his glee.
The Rhinoceros is back!
He been gone but he is back!
Best Regards
Blunderov
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On
Behalf
> Of rhinoceros
> Sent: 20 September 2003 2236
> To: virus@lucifer.com
> Subject: virus: Getting a reputation
>
>
> I am writing this from a position of authority. Yes, I shit you not. I
am
> Number 2 in the reputation system, second only to the legendary
Lucifer
> who pays the bills among other things
>
> As it is, my vote on any issue has a value of almost 8 percent of the
> whole congregation.
>
> How? It was easy. I just remained silent at a time when silence was
the
> right thing to do. But things change and the requirements change as
well.
> Some problems have been solved and several people from those who make
> things happen have been active again lately. So, the reputation
ratings
> should change accordingly. Hmm... should they?
>
> The reputation system came as an improvement to the previous
"ownerocracy
> + kinetocracy" system, which had some disadvantages known to all.
Instead
> of a rule of whoever has more time on their hands, we can have a rule
of
> whoever makes things more interesting for the congregation. You only
have
> to think of the pros and cons of everyone and give a rating.
>
> Heh... now that I think of it, I'll probably stay at the top for a
couple
> of years without doing anything. The system seems to lose momentum. I
can
> see that new people who join the system get rated by only a dozen, so
they
> don't have a chance. Then, their own ratings to others don't have much
> weight either.
>
> Maybe if everyone visited the reputation rating page and the vote page
at
> least once a week, say, every Monday... Bah, forget it.
>
>
>
> ----
> This message was posted by rhinoceros to the Virus 2003 board on
Church of
> Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid
=2
> 9293>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-
> bin/virus-l>
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Kid-A
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #2 on: 2003-09-20 19:06:59 » |
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So how does it feel rhino?
Just think the fame, the glory.
You are the second most respected.....is that the right word? popular? powerful?
Concerning noobies, I am not sure what can be done about that.
Perhaps there should be a karma reputation bot which automatically gives somebody more reputation when their karma increases/decreases. With maybe a high amount of equity.
So what are you going to do with your new found wealth?
Kid
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You're probably wondering why i'm here, well so am I, so am I.
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rhinoceros
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My point is ...
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #3 on: 2003-09-20 21:09:10 » |
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[Blunderov]
The Rhinoceros is back!
He been gone but he is back!
[rhinoceros]
Heh, not exactly gone. Always around and watching closely, more or less. 
[Kid-A]
So how does it feel rhino?
Just think the fame, the glory.
You are the second most respected.....is that the right word? popular? powerful?
[rhinoceros]
That was not the point of my post, but here is a story for you.
We have a statue of Truman somewhere in Athens, Greece. The tale says that Truman visited Greece once, and when they told him about the statue he looked confused and said "A statue? What for?"
Well, most of the time it feels awkward, as if you have to do something or as if you owe money. But if it happens a vote to come up and you have a strong opinion about the issue, you can be sucked in by the power game with your huge vote.
[Kid-A]
Concerning noobies, I am not sure what can be done about that. Perhaps there should be a karma reputation bot which automatically gives somebody more reputation when their karma increases/decreases. With maybe a high amount of equity.
[rhinoceros]
The new additions to the rep system are not always noobies. If it were for noobies, it is reasonable that many people won't rate them because they don't know them yet. But when old dogs who join the system don't get rated at all, then the rep/vote system seems to be wearing off. Maybe the simplest solution is just going there and voting every week.
[Kid-A]
So what are you going to do with your new found wealth?
[rhinoceros]
Heh, not so new. In fact it is getting old already. But it is still there, so, do you have any suggestions/offers on what I should buy?
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Kid-A
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #4 on: 2003-09-20 21:20:47 » |
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You can never go wrong with a new hat.
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You're probably wondering why i'm here, well so am I, so am I.
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David Lucifer
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Enlighten me.
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Re: virus: Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #5 on: 2003-09-21 13:33:58 » |
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> [rhinoceros]
> The new additions to the rep system are not always noobies. If it were for noobies, it is
reasonable that many people won't rate them because they don't know them yet. But when old dogs who
join the system don't get rated at all, then the rep/vote system seems to be wearing off. Maybe the
simplest solution is just going there and voting every week.
Is the problem due to lack of information or lack of incentive?
If the former, I could set it up so that there is an announcement
made to the list or one of the BBS boards when someone joins the
system. If the latter, we could discuss possibilities for
engineering greater incentive.
David
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Casey
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Revere the skeptic.
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #6 on: 2003-09-21 17:48:57 » |
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[David]
Is the problem due to lack of information or lack of incentive? If the former, I could set it up so that there is an announcement made to the list or one of the BBS boards when someone joins the system. If the latter, we could discuss possibilities for
engineering greater incentive.
[Casey]
It's probably a little of both; lack of information and lack of incentive. Information regarding a person is key when rating them. In cases where I don't know a person I give them a 5, it's as simple as that. Then, of course, when I know someone I give them a score that I feel they merit (and, I'm assuming all of you do the same).
To quote Rhinoceros ,"old dogs who join the system don't get rated at all, then the rep/vote system seems to be wearing off", seems true to the point. If this were the case, as I suspect as much, then isn't this Apathy? Which we all know is a Virian Sin?
I come online once or twice a week when I'm busiest, and about 5 or 6 times when I've got more time on my hands. Because I don't post frequently, or come to IRC, doesn't dissuade me from casting my own Reputation votes. I read through the BBS and email list to determine what number level I think one's Reputation should be placed. I would only hope the same from the rest of the Congregation. Until recently, I didn't realize I had 2 email address establishing my link to the Church of Virus. I deleted one and began using the other. So, with my previous account deleted I've lost numerous votes (both, positive and negative)  on my Reputation.
So, from the looks of things, I'm beginning to sense Apathy arising in some Congregants; most likely, unknowingly considering that there may be any number of reasons why someone doesn't peruse the Reputations Link at the top of the page.
Fond regards,
Casey
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Kid-A
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #7 on: 2003-09-21 18:55:38 » |
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Maybe there should be prizes, as an incentive to update reps or votes
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You're probably wondering why i'm here, well so am I, so am I.
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ElvenSage
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Think for yourself, question authority.
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #8 on: 2003-09-22 02:11:16 » |
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I think you bring up a good point Rhino. The reputation system has made "playing politics' in the Virus community a lot more real. I had discussed it with a few people pre-reputations, but it is so obvious now. If you're nice to everyone, and you do not get into conflicts, and do not share your opinion on anything contriversal you'll be promoted upward. If you say what you think, you end up lower on the list. I question if the reputation system is leading us into something better. It was a greta idea, but I think we're finding out in reality it isn't going to work.
I'm not going to play politics on here. I'm going to be honest, and say what I think. I think it would be a good idea if everyone stopped caring about the reputation system. Even better, I think at this point it might be a good idea to remove it. (Yes I'm feeling very bold and upfront tonight.)
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Safe from the pain and truth and choice and other poison devils
See.. they don't give a fuck about you, like i do.
Just stay with me, safe and ignorant,
Go back to sleep
Go Back to sleep
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Walter Watts
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Just when I thought I was out-they pull me back in
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Re: virus: Getting a reputation
« Reply #9 on: 2003-09-23 17:22:37 » |
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Hey, beloved brother.
Authority is held in contempt around here......
Best be "upper middle-class" and NOT a target!
;-'>
Walter
rhinoceros wrote:
> I am writing this from a position of authority. Yes, I shit you not. I am Number 2 in the reputation system, second only to the legendary Lucifer who pays the bills among other things
>
> As it is, my vote on any issue has a value of almost 8 percent of the whole congregation.
>
> How? It was easy. I just remained silent at a time when silence was the right thing to do. But things change and the requirements change as well. Some problems have been solved and several people from those who make things happen have been active again lately. So, the reputation ratings should change accordingly. Hmm... should they?
>
> The reputation system came as an improvement to the previous "ownerocracy + kinetocracy" system, which had some disadvantages known to all. Instead of a rule of whoever has more time on their hands, we can have a rule of whoever makes things more interesting for the congregation. You only have to think of the pros and cons of everyone and give a rating.
>
> Heh... now that I think of it, I'll probably stay at the top for a couple of years without doing anything. The system seems to lose momentum. I can see that new people who join the system get rated by only a dozen, so they don't have a chance. Then, their own ratings to others don't have much weight either.
>
> Maybe if everyone visited the reputation rating page and the vote page at least once a week, say, every Monday... Bah, forget it.
>
> ----
> This message was posted by rhinoceros to the Virus 2003 board on Church of Virus BBS.
> <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=29293>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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Walter Watts
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ElvenSage
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Think for yourself, question authority.
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #10 on: 2003-09-24 01:19:31 » |
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Doesn't that in itself show that we're having some major problems with the presented means of control? The reputation system was a great idea, and it is one of those things that somewhat has a purpose, I'm not sure how to govern a group like this myself, but at the same time I feel the system in place creates a lot of problems. Sure, there isn't as much spam, but the fun-factor of Virus seems to have died.
Maybe saying "tear down the system!" isn't what I should have said, but we realyl need to find a way to get this place functional again. Look how many posts are posted now... hardly any. When I started the CoV I had rtouble keeping up with all the posts. There was always something interesting, or fun to read. I'm not seeing that as much now. Anyone have any good suggestions?
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Safe from the pain and truth and choice and other poison devils
See.. they don't give a fuck about you, like i do.
Just stay with me, safe and ignorant,
Go back to sleep
Go Back to sleep
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Kid-A
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #11 on: 2003-09-24 09:36:18 » |
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I have to agree with you on this one ElvenSage, and mainly because I have seen many new members to the CoV join the reputation system and now have a slightly negative opinion, even though very few people have voted for them, I think the problem is that posts which I have found to be generally quite good are not concidered by most people and only their activity on #virus is taken into account.
I'm not saying get rid of the reputation system completely, but I still think integrating it with the Karma in some way might be a good experiment.
Kid
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You're probably wondering why i'm here, well so am I, so am I.
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rhinoceros
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My point is ...
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #12 on: 2003-09-24 14:16:54 » |
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[Walter]
Hey, beloved brother.
Authority is held in contempt around here......
Best be "upper middle-class" and NOT a target!
;-'>
[rhinoceros]
Damn, did you think I didn't know that, Walter?
Why did you have to ruin my little ploy by translating that part to English?
:P
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Kharin
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In heaven all the interesting people are missing.
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #13 on: 2003-09-24 14:48:25 » |
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Quote:| "Look how many posts are posted now... hardly any. When I started the CoV I had rtouble keeping up with all the posts. There was always something interesting, or fun to read. I'm not seeing that as much now. " |
A couple of points.
Firstly, quality is more important than quantity. Looking back to the last occasions when my inbox was buried in an avalanche of posts, I have to say I find it difficult to summon up any feelings of nostalgia.
Secondly, while this is a very subjective area, I would say that the most interesting and enagaging material from Virus is increasingly posted to the bbs rather than to this list (thinking of contributions from members like bricoleur in particular).
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rhinoceros
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My point is ...
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Re:Getting a reputation
« Reply #14 on: 2003-09-24 15:41:10 » |
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[Lucifer]
Is the problem due to lack of information or lack of incentive? If the former, I could set it up so that there is an announcement made to the list or one of the BBS boards when someone joins the system. If the latter, we could discuss possibilities for engineering greater incentive. I question if the reputation system is leading us into something better. It was a greta idea, but I think we're finding out in reality it isn't going to work.
[rhinoceros]
After all the discussion in this thread, I am afraid we can say that lack of information is the lesser problem. Not that an announcement would do any harm.
We'll probably have to discuss incentives or automatic software assisted methods, or even the purpose of a fully functional rating and voting system itself.
[Elvensage 1]
I think you bring up a good point Rhino. The reputation system has made "playing politics' in the Virus community a lot more real. I had discussed it with a few people pre-reputations, but it is so obvious now.
[rhinoceros]
Yes, it is politics, as in dealing with the commons. The term sounds negative because, in its common use, it applies to the politicians. I suspect that the indifference of the voters comes from there as well. It is an interesting experiment to see if we can do better.
We often feel that politicians are voted for something and are doing something entirely different and we are helpless because we can't send them away in mid term. We often take it for granted that we are at their mercy in the meanwhile. This is not so bad here.
Another interesting difference is that in our relatively small community we get to chat with the "top" ones every day and that we have a chance to go to the "top" ourselves. On the one hand, this is an incentive to get involved in the commons. On the other hand, it can also create real and personal disappointment when someone stays low in the reputation system. It reminds me of the experiment with the rebelious apes. This theory can be confirmed if the people at lower places are the ones who stopped voting after some point in time.
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=29275
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=29284
[Elvensage 1]
If you're nice to everyone, and you do not get into conflicts, and do not share your opinion on anything contriversal you'll be promoted upward. If you say what you think, you end up lower on the list.
[rhinoceros]
Not true. You have always been high up in the reputation system because of your contribution in CoV. When some people downvoted you, you lost some decimal points, and it was only a coincidence that you dropped below 7. I can see that now, you are above 7 again. Hermit's rating also has had some fluctuations because of the incidents he has been involved in. I think that nobody's contribution has been ignored by the voters, at least as long as enough people take the trouble to click on that button over there.
[Elvensage 1]
I'm not going to play politics on here. I'm going to be honest, and say what I think. I think it would be a good idea if everyone stopped caring about the reputation system. Even better, I think at this point it might be a good idea to remove it. (Yes I'm feeling very bold and upfront tonight.)
[rhinoceros]
The reputation system gives some more weight to this opinion of yours, but I will not agree just yet.
[Elvensage 2]
Doesn't that in itself show that we're having some major problems with the presented means of control? The reputation system was a great idea, and it is one of those things that somewhat has a purpose, I'm not sure how to govern a group like this myself, but at the same time I feel the system in place creates a lot of problems. Sure, there isn't as much spam, but the fun-factor of Virus seems to have died.
Maybe saying "tear down the system!" isn't what I should have said, but we realyl need to find a way to get this place functional again. Look how many posts are posted now... hardly any. When I started the CoV I had rtouble keeping up with all the posts. There was always something interesting, or fun to read. I'm not seeing that as much now. Anyone have any good suggestions?
[rhinoceros]
Hey, the rep systemn has not been given any administrative powers for CoV yet. And we seem to be back at having fun lately.
[Kid-A]
I have to agree with you on this one ElvenSage, and mainly because I have seen many new members to the CoV join the reputation system and now have a slightly negative opinion, even though very few people have voted for them, I think the problem is that posts which I have found to be generally quite good are not concidered by most people and only their activity on #virus is taken into account.
I'm not saying get rid of the reputation system completely, but I still think integrating it with the Karma in some way might be a good experiment.
[rhinoceros]
I can see members who have been given very high but very few votes, and if you don't check you'll think that people have negative opinions about them. I think participation is the key.
1. Direct participation in the current form of the system: For this, we'l have to overcome:
- Lack of information
- The "nothing changes" syndrome
- The "apes for justice" syndrome
Maybe restoring the results to "sorted by rep" could give some additional incentive to the top half of the table, but I am not sure about that.
2. Indirect (software assisted) participation, in a form not requiring us to get out of our way to vote. We could try to figure out a way to use the Karma system, but it does not seem easy to make it give meaningful results, and there is also participation in the #virus IRC channel which should be rated.
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