RE: virus: Re:Notice and Proposal of Importance to all Virians
« Reply #30 on: 2003-08-04 18:48:24 »
[Kalkor] Please treat us like rational humans. ... Give us a bit more credit than that, please.
[Demon] It would be irrational to assume such a trait and it would be definitely idiotic to freely give credit undeserved.
[Kalkor2] My request mentioned nothing about assumptions. For example, I am treating you as I would a rational human being, but I am fairly certain you are anything but! <wink>
Furthermore, when you misquote someone, it is basic courtesy to indicate that you have <snipped> something. It keeps from turning statements like this: "I would sleep with you if and only if you were the last man on earth and needed to produce offspring." into statements like this: "I would sleep with you ... to produce offspring."
[Kalkor] Perhaps you would be taken more seriously in future if you used fewer adjectives?
[Demon] Shall we also refrain from the use of nouns and verbs? I'm positive that would make communication between the members of this group difficult and that's not to say it is effective anyway.
[Kalkor2] No, I think you may continue to use nouns and verbs. They can be useful. You may even throw in an adverb or two.
The tone of your reply contrasts with your approval rating on the bbs. Is there a correlation here that needs investigating?
The haughty tone of your reply contrasts drastically with your low approval rating on the bbs. Is there a correlation here that needs investigating?
The offensively haughty tone of your reply contrasts drastically with your pitifully low approval rating on the bbs. Is there a correlation here that needs investigating?
[Kalkor] Please treat us like rational humans. ... Give us a bit more credit than that, please.
[Demon] It would be irrational to assume such a trait and it would be definitely idiotic to freely give credit undeserved.
[Kalkor2] My request mentioned nothing about assumptions. For example, I am treating you as I would a rational human being, but I am fairly certain you are anything but! <wink>
[Demon] That is an assumption.
[Kalkor] Furthermore, when you misquote someone, it is basic courtesy to indicate that you have <snipped> something. It keeps from turning statements like this: "I would sleep with you if and only if you were the last man on earth and needed to produce offspring." into statements like this: "I would sleep with you ... to produce offspring."
[Demon] Clearly, you enjoy dictating how others should act. It is no surprise you venerate Hermit.
[Kalkor] Perhaps you would be taken more seriously in future if you used fewer adjectives?
[Demon] Shall we also refrain from the use of nouns and verbs? I'm positive that would make communication between the members of this group difficult and that's not to say it is effective anyway.
[Kalkor2] No, I think you may continue to use nouns and verbs. They can be useful. You may even throw in an adverb or two.
[Demon] Thanks.
[Kalkor] The tone of your reply contrasts with your approval rating on the bbs. Is there a correlation here that needs investigating?
The haughty tone of your reply contrasts drastically with your low approval rating on the bbs. Is there a correlation here that needs investigating?
The offensively haughty tone of your reply contrasts drastically with your pitifully low approval rating on the bbs. Is there a correlation here that needs investigating?
[Demon] You do realize that you just made three similar statements, right?
[Kalkor] Food for thought, I hope.
[Demon] You can wish in one hand and crap in the other then see which hand gets filled first.
RE: virus: Re:Notice and Proposal of Importance to all Virians
« Reply #32 on: 2003-08-04 19:33:10 »
[Bill] <snip> Your answer is as it is because in the past, when evidence is given, you ignored it.
[Kalkor] You assume I ignored it. There is a difference. I traditionally read a lot and reply only a little. I admit that in this I am remiss, and apologize.
[Bill] <snip> When Hermit was flaming me, did you ask him to prove his assertions? I don't remember seeing that.
[Kalkor] No. I try not to ask people to prove statements of opinion. Flame sequences generally entertain me but are otherwise ignored.
[Bill] Did you even check what he wrote? Go ahead, tell me ya did.
[Kalkor] Yes, I did. I read a lot. I reply a little.
[Bill] Did you stop reading his post immediately after his attacks on others as you have done in my case?
[Kalkor] No, I did not. I continued to read them for a chuckle, but I stopped taking them seriously.
[Bill] <snip> And I could care less about the ratings. I am interested in this only in that it is a beta from David. My input requires my participation and I do like to help. My reputation and opinion of myself would not be, in any way, related to anything the CoV can do, so I could care less. The system simply sounds interesting to me, I usually enjoy tinkering with David's creations, betas, and recommendations.
[Kalkor] A thick skin seems to be a valuable thing. I also enjoy tinkering with his creations, and this one seems to have gotten an amazing response. Very interesting to watch and participate in.
[Bill] I do not mean to be rude to you, Kalkor, and if I have been I am sorry.
[Kalkor] No offense given, none taken. Thick skins and all that ;-}
[Bill] <snip> will you even be able to change your opinion? Will you be able to realize that any person who frequently practices deception, will not change once you catch them? Will you assume it is a sometimes error or will you assume that it is SOP? Do you think patterns of behaviour change all that much?
[Kalkor] I change my opinion all the time. I practice vision and hope when I can. Anyone can change. I try not to assume anything, and I try very hard to recognize patterns. Some behavior patterns change, some do not. When there is a potential for a change in a positive (to me) direction, I encourage it however I can. My own behavior patterns have changed drastically since I joined the CoV. I think the changes are positive, and I practice rationality more often than I ever dreamed. You helped, Joe helped, Hermit helped. I hope you can see that all of us who read often and reply little are still reading, filtering, and learning. I have tried not to be discouraged by the flamewars and emotional exchanges. In fact, I have learned a lot from them, as well.
Re: virus: Re:Notice and Proposal of Importance to all Virians
« Reply #33 on: 2003-08-04 19:43:55 »
Damn you Kalkor ; )
rational after all. And damn glad for it. You have dramatically improved my opinion of you by your answers.
Sincerely, thank you for the honesty.
Bill
Kalkor wrote:
>[Bill] ><snip> >Your answer is as it is because in the >past, when evidence is given, you ignored it. > >[Kalkor] >You assume I ignored it. There is a difference. I traditionally read a lot >and reply only a little. I admit that in this I am remiss, and apologize. > >[Bill] ><snip> >When Hermit was flaming me, did you ask him to prove his >assertions? I don't remember seeing that. > >[Kalkor] >No. I try not to ask people to prove statements of opinion. Flame sequences >generally entertain me but are otherwise ignored. > >[Bill] >Did you even check what he wrote? Go ahead, tell me ya did. > >[Kalkor] >Yes, I did. I read a lot. I reply a little. > >[Bill] >Did you stop reading his post immediately after his attacks on others as you >have done in my case? > >[Kalkor] >No, I did not. I continued to read them for a chuckle, but I stopped taking >them seriously. > >[Bill] ><snip> >And I could care less about the ratings. I am interested in this only in >that it is a beta from David. My input requires my participation and I >do like to help. My reputation and opinion of myself would not be, in >any way, related to anything the CoV can do, so I could care less. The >system simply sounds interesting to me, I usually enjoy tinkering with >David's creations, betas, and recommendations. > >[Kalkor] >A thick skin seems to be a valuable thing. I also enjoy tinkering with his >creations, and this one seems to have gotten an amazing response. Very >interesting to watch and participate in. > >[Bill] >I do not mean to be rude to you, Kalkor, and if I have been I am sorry. > >[Kalkor] >No offense given, none taken. Thick skins and all that ;-} > >[Bill] ><snip> will you even be able to change your >opinion? Will you be able to realize that any person who frequently >practices deception, will not change once you catch them? Will you >assume it is a sometimes error or will you assume that it is SOP? Do you >think patterns of behaviour change all that much? > >[Kalkor] >I change my opinion all the time. >I practice vision and hope when I can. Anyone can change. >I try not to assume anything, and I try very hard to recognize patterns. >Some behavior patterns change, some do not. When there is a potential for a >change in a positive (to me) direction, I encourage it however I can. >My own behavior patterns have changed drastically since I joined the CoV. I >think the changes are positive, and I practice rationality more often than I >ever dreamed. You helped, Joe helped, Hermit helped. I hope you can see that >all of us who read often and reply little are still reading, filtering, and >learning. I have tried not to be discouraged by the flamewars and emotional >exchanges. In fact, I have learned a lot from them, as well. > >Good to see you back, by the way ;-} > >Kalkor > >--- >To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> > > >
-- Reason - Vision - Empathy Tools for a healthy mind
The reason that I and several others are quite justifiably pissed off at hermit has to do with his repeated attempts to verbally piss on us (and anyone else who might dare to disagree with his orally flatulent self), and his present endeavor to do the same to the purpose for which this list community was originally created.
Re: virus: Re:Notice and Proposal of Importance to all Virians
« Reply #35 on: 2003-08-04 20:18:45 »
Just to be specific, hopefully not offending Joe, we do not want to be moderated or spoken for. We are not interested in his leaving or anything like that. We just do not want him to have the hammer on us. It's that simple. We don't want to moderate him, or anything else of that nature. We would rather that the CoV NOT take a political stand on anything, or a pro - anti stand on any political activity. Indeed we (those with more aggressive ideas regarding foreign policies) do frequently take a position in favor of actions that many here would disagree with, but in my case, and I think in most cases, ours have been outspoken responses to political attacks. Not initiated by us. If it was up to me, we would not be initiating the slander of elected officials of any country, or assaulting any elected official from any country. We would be remarking about their abilities in relation to memes, curious about the cultural standards, and the like. I, and others, may hold many political ideas dear, but this is not the place for me or anyone else to profit from those ideas. We're not looking for followers or leaders. We are looking for peers.
Joe Dees wrote:
>To Calvin: > >The reason that I and several others are pissed off at hermit has to do with his repeated attempts to piss on us (and anyone else who might dare to disagree with his orally flatulent self), and his present endeavor to do the same to the purpose for which this site community was originally created. > >No whine, just fact. > >---- >This message was posted by Joe Dees to the Virus 2003 board on Church of Virus BBS. ><http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=28917> >--- >To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> > > >
-- Reason - Vision - Empathy Tools for a healthy mind
I fully concur with Bill here. And add that people should not slander other peoples' mothers because those others dare to disagree with their political slants and agendas. In a fair and objective ratings system, such execrable and irrelevant ad hominems would be punished in the ratings. The fact that, in Hermit's case, they manifestly have not, and instead have been applauded, and the person whose mother was slandered because he spoke out in opposition to Hermit's political slants and agendas has been smited, is all the evidence I need to see to rationally conclude that such a system is as fair or as malevolent as the people employing it are.
RE: virus: Re:Notice and Proposal of Importance to all Virians
« Reply #37 on: 2003-08-04 20:47:37 »
[Bill] <snip> If it was up to me, we would not be initiating the slander of elected officials of any country, or assaulting any elected official from any country. We would be remarking about their abilities in relation to memes, curious about the cultural standards, and the like. I, and others, may hold many political ideas dear, but this is not the place for me or anyone else to profit from those ideas.
[Kalkor] Very well put, imho! I think Joe's suggestion in response to my "help me help you" thread fits right along with this. He also posted the url for an excellent resource to draw data from for such discussions. http://opengov1.media.mit.edu/
I, too, hold many political ideas dear. I'm trying to whittle them down, by taking a step back as often as possible and doing what you suggest, and what Joe has suggested.
However, I think it would be in our best interest to figure out how the church and humanity can profit from, not the ideas themselves, but from understanding them. It all seems to fit together. Now we're on the same page ;-}
> I fully concur with Bill here. And add that people should not slander other peoples' mothers because those others dare to disagree with their political slants. In a fair and objective ratings system, such execrable and irrelevant ad hominems would be punished in the ratings. The fact that, in Hermit's case, they manifestly have not, and have instead been applauded, and the person whose mother was slandered because he spoke out in opposition was smited. is all the evidence I need to see to conclude that such a system is as fair or as malevolent as the people employing in it are.
Let me suggest a more plausible explanation. Nobody applauded Hermit for slandering Joe's mother. If Hermit was given positive ratings, it was despite the fact that he participates in this interminable flame war. His ratings no doubt suffered due to this, and the system reflected this in a reputation lesser than it would have been if Hermit was above that regrettable exchange.
So, what explains the rest of it? That Hermit proferred stances that were congenial to many members' memesets, whilst I presented, in the interrests of balance and a wider source base from which to arrive at more fully informed conclusions, a spectrum of more cognitively dissonant views? That still reinforces an ideological lockstep conformity to a particular memeplex in an organization that purports to dispassionately and objectively peruse the entire panoply of perspectives on issues, and that just CANNOT be a good thing...
I do note, however, that his karma rating has dropped a point, and mine has raised a point, since this thread began, so perhaps there are still some vestiges of fairness remaining out there, after all...
P.S.: I have never either smited or applauded anyone, including Bill Roh and Hermit.
One other note: such a system operates as a pure democracy, but that is not always a good thing, as it allows majorities to codify any sexual, gender orientation, racial, age, religious and/or ideological prejudices they might possess. Such a system ends up replacing justice with all-too-fallible popularity. This is why the US is a constitutional, rather than pure, democracy, forbidding certain malevolent impulses that majorities possess towards different minorities, thus avoiding the tyranny of an unjust majority (although much work still has to be done here, much also has been, via passed laws, court decisions and constitutional amendments). The famous philosophical counterexample is the question of whether it would be fair , if there were ten people on an island and nine of them were sadists, for them to hold a popular vote on whether or not to torture the tenth.
> So, what explains the rest of it? That Hermit proferred stances that were congenial to many members' memesets, whilst I presented, in the interrests of balance and a wider source base from which to form more informed conclusions, more cognitively dissonant views? That still reinforces an ideological lockstep conformity to a particular memeplex in an organization that purports to dispassionately and objectively peruse the entire panoply of perspectives on issues, and that just CANNOT be a good thing...
If copying political articles to the bbs was a major criterion for respect you would be king. But I suspect political views matter little for most people doing the ratings. At least so far.
The current ratings are biased toward IRC users because they were the initial beta testers. But BBS users and list subscribers outnumber IRC users by orders of magnitude. Stop complaining and start rating.
I highly doubt that there will ever be thousands of users on the peer rating system like Hermit suggests. There may be thousands of registered users on the BBS, but the total active users is a fraction of that.
Suggestions for improvement:
Allow the removal of yourself from the list.
Disable the automatic placement of your account upon accessing the URL.
Present the option to be placed on the list.
Disable the ability of users to rate themselves.
Develop new objective descriptions for each ranking. As of now, they're abundantly emotional.
Demote the usage of the peer rating system as a serious tool.
[Lucifer] If copying political articles to the bbs was a major criterion for respect you would be king.
[Demon] I've seen a similar argument from Hermit and a few others many times. If your view is already inscribed by another's pen, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. If Joe Dees subscribes to the ideas represented in some of the many articles he has posted, then let him post the articles. However, this also applies to Hermit and more. I should mention that many articles are protected under US Copyright Law and readers are legally prohibited from posting the articles in their complete form unless permission is granted by the author.
Re: virus: Re:Notice and Proposal of Importance to all Virians
« Reply #43 on: 2003-08-05 00:26:02 »
I'm with David. It's only an experiment, a test at this stage. Let's play with it for a while. It if ends up being seriously flawed, this will become evident as it grows. If not, perhaps the right tweaking will make it an effective tool after all. It's just too soon for me to tell. I do generally agree with metahuman's response, but see these changes as minor.
Lets role with it - see how it comes out. It's not as though it will make things worse, we have most the tension we need already.
Bill Roh
metahuman wrote:
>I highly doubt that there will ever be thousands of users on the peer rating system like Hermit suggests. There may be thousands of registered users on the BBS, but the total active users is a fraction of that. > >Suggestions for improvement: >
Allow the removal of yourself from the list. >
Disable the automatic placement of your account upon accessing the URL. >
Present the option to be placed on the list. >
Disable the ability of users to rate themselves. >
Develop new objective descriptions for each ranking. As of now, they're abundantly emotional. >
RE: virus: Re:Notice and Proposal of Importance to all Virians
« Reply #44 on: 2003-08-05 13:38:07 »
[Kalkor] Please treat us like rational humans. ... Give us a bit more credit than that, please.
[Demon] It would be irrational to assume such a trait and it would be definitely idiotic to freely give credit undeserved.
[Kalkor2] My request mentioned nothing about assumptions. For example, I am treating you as I would a rational human being, but I am fairly certain you are anything but! <wink>
[Demon2] That is an assumption.
[Kalkor3] You *DO* understand then! Excellent, as my intent with that sentence was to point out the difference between *treating* someone as though they were rational, and *assuming* they were.
[Kalkor] Furthermore, when you misquote someone, it is basic courtesy to indicate that you have <snipped> something. It keeps from turning statements like this: "I would sleep with you if and only if you were the last man on earth and needed to produce offspring." into statements like this: "I would sleep with you ... to produce offspring."
[Demon2] Clearly, you enjoy dictating how others should act. It is no surprise you venerate Hermit.
[Kalkor3] Pointing out established courtesy guidelines is not dictating action. I don't see how the second sentence follows from the first, even if the first were provisionally true.
[Kalkor] The tone of your reply contrasts with your approval rating on the bbs. Is there a correlation here that needs investigating?
The haughty tone of your reply contrasts drastically with your low approval rating on the bbs. Is there a correlation here that needs investigating?
The offensively haughty tone of your reply contrasts drastically with your pitifully low approval rating on the bbs. Is there a correlation here that needs investigating?
[Demon2] You do realize that you just made three similar statements, right?
[Kalkor3] Again, excellent! I'm glad you noticed, because I was demonstrating the use of adjectives for you. I was hoping you'd point out the fallacy of the assertion, and then notice how the tone modifying adjectives don't really change the fallacy, but do change the way the sentences will be percieved by emotional individuals.
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