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Topic: virus: How can we compete? (Read 2208 times) |
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Walter Watts
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Re: virus: How can we compete?
« Reply #15 on: 2003-02-11 14:52:39 » |
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As Jack Nicholson said in "As Good as it Gets",
"What if this is as good as it gets?"
Walter
<good stuff, Rhino>
rhinoceros wrote:
> So, we should not assume that we can possibly change that framework with just a couple of discussions, especially if the memetic framework in someone's brain is the result of a whole live's experience. I think, that is why the failure of a targetted effort to pass a meme to a person can be so frustrating and logically inexplicable to any one of us. And of course, that is also why we believe that we are right -- because what we say fits nicely in our memetic framework.
--
Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"No one gets to see the Wizard! Not nobody! Not no how!"
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Walter Watts
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Mermaid
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Bite me!
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Re: virus: How can we compete?
« Reply #16 on: 2003-02-11 19:33:13 » |
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Quote from: Jonathan Davis on 2003-02-10 10:28:43
Not specifically. Religion, racism, sexism, feminism, communism...whatever the format, the zeal of ideology is more attractive that our calm reasoned positions. You can point out to some angry man on a podium that he is
talking rubbish. You show conclusively that he is mistaken and he does not even flinch. It is like hitting a brute with a rock only to have him shake his head and say "Is that your best shot?" What is worse is that the crowd favours the zealot. Humans love emotion. The truth is unpopular. Conversion for us takes huge amounts of time and efforts - often preceded by at least competent education. In the demon-haunted world, we are heavily outnumbered
and outgunned by our rivals.
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[Mermaid] I am not sure you answered my question. I imagine that you find it impossible to fish out an example. But, I do believe that I get the 'idea'.
[Mermaid]Here are my thoughts on it. I am not sure there is a 'virian stance' for every topic. I dont think cov, as a group, need to 'compete' for every idea out there. I am sure you'll agree with me that even amongst cov, there are varying points of view.
[Mermaid]At this point, I am not aware of any 'virian' stance on many of the troubling world issues. I think most of virus agrees on the crippling effect of rabid religious beliefs. I doubt if there are any creationists here. Other than that, there are so many viewpoints on every subject..be it personal choices as abortion, divisive like politics, irrelevant issues like war and peace or even something as important as dieting.
[Mermaid]Just as we have deeply personal and strong opinions about issues, we also have very unique ways to communicate. Some may use sarcasm. Others may use reason. With humour, patience, quotations or even throat parching, saliva spitting, good old yelling until the opponent SUBMITS. I have heard that silent staring is also very effective... (except on bears..in the wild...you can stare down a teddy bear anyday)
[Mermaid]I dont see what cov has to do with the methods of competition among the fanatics. However, being fanatic about *anything*, imo, is never a strength.
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JD
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Re: virus: How can we compete?
« Reply #17 on: 2003-02-12 05:49:07 » |
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Watts" <wlwatts@cox.net>
To: <virus@lucifer.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: virus: How can we compete?
> As Jack Nicholson said in "As Good as it Gets",
>
> "What if this is as good as it gets?"
That is one of my favourite films!
"Ok ok, I had bacon in my pocket"
Regards
Jonathan
http://www.limbicnutrition.com/blog/
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BillRoh
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Re:virus: How can we compete?
« Reply #18 on: 2003-02-13 14:37:05 » |
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Nice observations Mermaid.
It seems to me that the concept we once attempted, the First Hierarch, had the best chance of organizing and catalyizing the CoV.
A basic discription of the Virian Council. 13 members were selected in a serial fashion. Starting with David, each would select the next member of the council. Example: David nominated Eric, Eric accepted and nominated KMO, KMO accepted and nominated myself, I nominated Hermit, and the group grew til we had 13. It took some time.
Many discussions and over a year later, we were still secret and not really getting along. Then all hell broke loose between several of us, we all know about that now.
What was good about the council: Responsibilities could be easily divied up, a broad section of the CoV would have a say in the activities of the CoV. Only the willing need accept and participate at this level. We could deal with legal issues like "Should we become a religion?", a non-profit, or whatever. We would have active members in many locations. Basically the group was to be responsible for the legal requirements of the CoV.
Things I did not like, others may agree or disagree: We remained secret. I would have prefered a public group that changed members frequently. Many agreed to participate on the condition that they did not have to really do anything but offer opinions. That seemed ok at the time, but now it seems that if one is not interested in participating and taking responsibility for something, one should decline the invitation.
The only reason I bring up the Virian Council is because in my experience, organization is essential to success and competition. All groups, businesses, organizations, need some type of administative body to function. To make things work.
In my opinion, the start must be made at true organization before talk of "how we can compete" can be taken seriously.
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Kalkor
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RE: virus: How can we compete?
« Reply #19 on: 2003-02-13 21:27:41 » |
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[Bill]
Nice observations Mermaid.
It seems to me that the concept we once attempted, the First Hierarch, had
the best chance of organizing and catalyizing the CoV.
A basic discription of the Virian Council. 13 members were selected in a
serial fashion. Starting with David, each would select the next member of
the council. Example: David nominated Eric, Eric accepted and nominated KMO,
KMO accepted and nominated myself, I nominated Hermit, and the group grew
til we had 13. It took some time.
Many discussions and over a year later, we were still secret and not really
getting along. Then all hell broke loose between several of us, we all know
about that now.
What was good about the council: Responsibilities could be easily divied
up, a broad section of the CoV would have a say in the activities of the
CoV. Only the willing need accept and participate at this level. We could
deal with legal issues like "Should we become a religion?", a non-profit, or
whatever. We would have active members in many locations. Basically the
group was to be responsible for the legal requirements of the CoV.
Things I did not like, others may agree or disagree: We remained secret. I
would have prefered a public group that changed members frequently. Many
agreed to participate on the condition that they did not have to really do
anything but offer opinions. That seemed ok at the time, but now it seems
that if one is not interested in participating and taking responsibility for
something, one should decline the invitation.
The only reason I bring up the Virian Council is because in my experience,
organization is essential to success and competition. All groups,
businesses, organizations, need some type of administative body to function.
To make things work.
In my opinion, the start must be made at true organization before talk of
"how we can compete" can be taken seriously.
[Kalkor]
I'm game! Why don't we give it another go? Public, not secret. Limited time
frames. Revolving responsibilities. Mandatory participation if you accept
your nomination. Butt the hell out if you decline. Who threw the first one
together? David?
Any thoughts on this, David? Better yet, all you original Council members...
since the first go didn't work so well, do you have any thoughts on what to
do differently this time, aside from the ones Bill hase suggested?
I like the idea of trying something, and if it doesn't work, try it again
differently. No time like the present.
Kalkor
ps. We *COULD* always just genetically engineer some supermonkeys to be the
Virian Council
;-}
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Hermit
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Re:virus: How can we compete?
« Reply #20 on: 2003-02-14 00:05:39 » |
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Spacemonkeys will be fine. No matter how strange they turn out to be, or what limitations they may have, I'm sure they will have more integrity than Bill Roh - who has repeatedly proven that commitments are only binding on him while they suit him, that politeness is unneeded, honesty redundant, gratitude a liability, and that he can cause massive harm to fellow Virians without blinking an eye... while having the chutspah to attempt to give advice on behavior to others.
While on the topic, how about a spacemonkey for prez too. Can only be nicer, smarter and way less aggressive than the current incumbents, the smirking chimp and his brilliantly evil handlers and propagandists. Jake is a genius and his concept if implemented fast enough may yet save the world - which would surely make him eligable for a Nobel prize....
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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ElvenSage
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Re:virus: How can we compete?
« Reply #21 on: 2003-02-14 00:30:37 » |
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Jesus Christ Hermit. You're a bud and all, but do you always have to be so insultive of people? I mean, there are certain members of the forum I do not particularly like, but I also do not try to start arguements with them on a regular basis though. =\
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Hermit
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Re:virus: How can we compete?
« Reply #22 on: 2003-02-14 13:02:01 » |
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[ElvenSage] Jesus Christ Hermit. You're a bud and all, but do you always have to be so insultive of people? I mean, there are certain members of the forum I do not particularly like, but I also do not try to start arguements with them on a regular basis though. =\
[Hermit] Start arguments? Nope. Not my intention. I don't need to argue with the brain damaged, because they are incapable of it. Arguments require reason, and logic and the avoidance of fallacies. So I simply interject connections and corrections when they appear needed. Others are quite capable of drawing their own conclusions.
[Hermit] As previously disclosed, the Hierarchs agreed that their workings were not to be published until all agreed to do so, and further, that no matter what occurred, that the identities of the Hierarchs were to be private unless the Hierarch in question chose to identify themselves. This agreement was neither contingent upon it suiting the members making the agreement, nor on their or other members of the Hierarchy's membership status.
[Hermit] As I tried to remind him previously, at the time we discussed this, Bill Roh raised various issues, including those I mentioned here, as reasons why he supported anonymity. He claims that he has since changed his mind so it doesn't matter anymore and accused me of attempted blackmail...
[Hermit] All of the Hierarchs, Bill Roh, Casey Maniscalco and Joe Dees amongst them, subscribed to these conditions. Their words on the CoV mailling list and BBS prove that they have broken their word. Bill Roh, Casey Maniscalco and Joe Dees might have decided that they were no longer worried about anonymity. They had no right to decide it for me or any other Hierarchs. Neither have they any right to discuss what happened within the Hierarchs. Which, presumably to inflate his self-importance (or maybe to try to get a rise out of me), Bill Roh has taken to doing here.
[Hermit] You see, I also had reasons why my involvement in the CoV was contingent on pseudonymity. Until I was "outed", I was active in a number of scientific outreach endeavours (including two trying to keep creationism out of schools) which, for obvious reasons, cannot afford to be identified as "atheist" organizations or have their spokespeople identified as "atheist" activists - or in these paranoid times, as "anti-American", "pro-terrorist", "racist", "nazi", etc. All epithets tossed by Roh and Dees at one time or another. It didn't matter when it had no real world impact. But "outing" me here, changed that.
[Hermit] Foolishly, I had trusted the word of those members here who could associate my name with my posts not to do so. Unfortunately they taught me how stupid I had been to trust them. The people who chose to do this were aware of all of the above, and chose to "out" me anyway.
[Hermit] Think of what they hoped to achieve by "outing me"? To force me to leave? To attempt to prevent my discussing or contributing to contentious threads. To cause real hurt to me or those near me? Other motivations? I can't think of any. My conclusion? These are not the kind of people I would like to see people I care about being taken in by.
[Hermit] So, to answer your question, in this case, I'm busting Bill's bubble and attempting to prevent him from "profiting" - memetically or otherwise - from his slimyness. Because we should not lose sight of what Bill Roh really is, even, maybe especially, when he is trying to sound "reasonable." More generally, I'm attempting to prevent anyone else from being harmed through vesting trust in these self-identified, zero-integrity, sleazeballs by reminding people of these facts when it seems appropriate. It seemed appropriate given some of the responses here.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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BillRoh
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Re:virus: How can we compete?
« Reply #23 on: 2003-02-14 15:19:53 » |
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Thank you Kalkor, I generally argee. And Elven thanks for trying to keep the peace.
Hermit, I am not suggesting that we try the same thing or that I need to be a part of it. I am simply suggesting that organization is one of the first steps any group needs if it wishes to compete with larger, more powerful and well organized groups.
I also think that failure is a temporary state. When we as a group fail to accomplish something, I think it is in our best interest to refine, and continue trying. One thing is for sure, giving up on organization is the only way to guarantee failing at it. Discouraging improvement is, in my opinion, not the most helpful means of accomplishing the goals of the CoV.
Best to you all
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MoEnzyme
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Re: virus: How can we compete?
« Reply #24 on: 2003-02-14 17:06:20 » |
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In a message dated 2/13/2003 8:32:10 PM Central Standard Time,
kalkor@kalkor.com writes:
ps. We *COULD* always just genetically engineer some supermonkeys to be the
Virian Council
;-}
[Jake] Your recognition of an obviously good idea reveals your intelligence.
My hope for the Church as been redeemed!!
Love,
-Jake
attached: index.html
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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DrSebby
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...Oh, you smell of lambs!
    
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RE: virus: How can we compete?
« Reply #25 on: 2003-02-16 06:44:05 » |
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...flat out - this stuff wont work very well without some real world
contact. my notion has always bent towards localized 'chapters' where we
could have dinner parties and the like. dinner parties can be very
productive:) the franchising of the CoV must begin somewhere. and a vague
end-all objective...short term perhaps, would be a nice thing as well. i
still say buying a tropical island somewhere would be a nice one. David
suggested i might start the first franchise whilst wooing him with salmon at
my house a while back...but alas..these things take money i
believe...something i dont really have at this moment.
DrSebby.
"Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Kalkor" <kalkor@kalkor.com>
Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com
To: <virus@lucifer.com>
Subject: RE: virus: How can we compete?
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:27:41 -0800
[Bill]
Nice observations Mermaid.
It seems to me that the concept we once attempted, the First Hierarch, had
the best chance of organizing and catalyizing the CoV.
A basic discription of the Virian Council. 13 members were selected in a
serial fashion. Starting with David, each would select the next member of
the council. Example: David nominated Eric, Eric accepted and nominated KMO,
KMO accepted and nominated myself, I nominated Hermit, and the group grew
til we had 13. It took some time.
Many discussions and over a year later, we were still secret and not really
getting along. Then all hell broke loose between several of us, we all know
about that now.
What was good about the council: Responsibilities could be easily divied
up, a broad section of the CoV would have a say in the activities of the
CoV. Only the willing need accept and participate at this level. We could
deal with legal issues like "Should we become a religion?", a non-profit, or
whatever. We would have active members in many locations. Basically the
group was to be responsible for the legal requirements of the CoV.
Things I did not like, others may agree or disagree: We remained secret. I
would have prefered a public group that changed members frequently. Many
agreed to participate on the condition that they did not have to really do
anything but offer opinions. That seemed ok at the time, but now it seems
that if one is not interested in participating and taking responsibility for
something, one should decline the invitation.
The only reason I bring up the Virian Council is because in my experience,
organization is essential to success and competition. All groups,
businesses, organizations, need some type of administative body to function.
To make things work.
In my opinion, the start must be made at true organization before talk of
"how we can compete" can be taken seriously.
[Kalkor]
I'm game! Why don't we give it another go? Public, not secret. Limited time
frames. Revolving responsibilities. Mandatory participation if you accept
your nomination. Butt the hell out if you decline. Who threw the first one
together? David?
Any thoughts on this, David? Better yet, all you original Council members...
since the first go didn't work so well, do you have any thoughts on what to
do differently this time, aside from the ones Bill hase suggested?
I like the idea of trying something, and if it doesn't work, try it again
differently. No time like the present.
Kalkor
ps. We *COULD* always just genetically engineer some supermonkeys to be the
Virian Council
;-}
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"courage and shuffle the cards..."
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DrSebby
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Re:virus: How can we compete?
« Reply #26 on: 2003-02-16 06:48:00 » |
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...Hermit, even if bill throws a dagger your way here and there...keep in
mind that everyone has thrown a few in their time. no need to go taking it
so seriously and starting a lasting bitterness between you two. and bill,
ease up on the sass.
DrSebby.
"Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Hermit" <hidden@lucifer.com>
Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: How can we compete?
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:05:39 -0700
Spacemonkeys will be fine. No matter how strange they turn out to be, or
what limitations they may have, I'm sure they will have more integrity than
Bill Roh - who has repeatedly proven that commitments are only binding on
him while they suit him, that politeness is unneeded, honesty redundant,
gratitude a liability, and that he can cause massive harm to fellow Virians
without blinking an eye... while having the chutspah to attempt to give
advice on behavior to others.
While on the topic, how about a spacemonkey for prez too. Can only be nicer,
smarter and way less aggreessive than the current incumbents, the smirking
chimp and his brilliantly evil handlers and propagandists. Jake is a genius
and his concept if implemented fast enough may yet save the world - which
would surely make him eligable for a Nobel prize....
Hermit
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This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2003 board on Church of Virus
BBS.
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=277
97>
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BillRoh
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Re:virus: How can we compete?
« Reply #27 on: 2003-02-17 17:59:08 » |
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Sebby:
I agree with the idea that contact in real life is essential. It seems that from an organizational standpoint, local chapters will be essential to most complex tasks if they are to be accomplished in a timely fashion.
It also is true that many of us travel quite a bit. In any year, I'll visit LA 2x and Vegas 2x, Boston, Atlanta, NY, and Pheonix are also frequent stops. I can't be the only one that is drawn to these cities for events like CES or Infocom. I'll gladly go out of my way to meet other Virians when I am in their towns.
on the subject of chapters: Chapters need to include enough area if they are to have a reasonable amount of people to get together. A group of 3 or 4, though nice for an evening, would be too few for a chapter. I would suggest that 6 people be about the minimum amount necessary to form a chapter.
If we were to divide North America into several regions, and if we could get a person from each region to be a responsible party, then we could have a contact that new or existing people could call in their region to find out if there is a chapter, chapter in formation, or just a few people.
For Example - say Walter was the contact for the states that border OK. new person to the lict could look up the local chapter and contact info on our site, then contact Walter to find out the local info on the CoV.
I still think that you would need a worldwide organization to direct and ensure uniformity, but that is the only reason.
As for the "sass" comment. If you could find sass in this thread, then I do not know how to respond to you in a way you won't find sassy. In this thread I made no attempts to throw any daggers or act with "sass" towards anyone. I guarantee that any "sass" yourself or anyone else picks up on in this thread is an invention of your own reading style, or personal slant. Not of actual content. I do not know how to be more polite in the face of voluminous paragraph after paragraph of insult. I'm certainly willing to listen to any advise on how to ignore better though.
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