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MoEnzyme
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virus: Space Monkeys - The future is here!
« on: 2003-02-13 13:53:58 »
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The problem:  continuing inefficiencies of manned space flight juxtaposed
with the real human need to explore and feel involved with it, brings us to
the solution to this problem which both maximizes the scientific knowledge
yield on the one hand, (perhaps even better than the conventionally
envisioned robotics programs) and uniquely satisfies our transhumanist need
for involvement in that exploration in ways that currently envisioned manned
programs cannot.

The answer:  Space Monkeys.  Genetically engineered monkeys, exact species as
yet undetermined.  General body plan, small, four grasping appendages and
prehensile tail already more fit for zero G environment than human.  Genetic
modifications mostly centering on vocal refinements for speech.  Modest
improvements to cerebral abilities include primarily more efficient blood
flow and chemical connections (much like our lab animal mouse "Doogie", all
praise unto him!).  For the beginning specimen we should probably chose an
individual with a naturally larger braincase within the variation of its
species.  A minimalist ethic in making these modifications should be followed
leaving the product still in essence a member of its original species capable
of normal reproduction therewith, and in appearance virtually
indistinguishable.  A further general rule of dominance regarding these
modifications should be followed such that reproduction with their own
unmodified cohorts, will generally produce heterozygous specimens that retain
the enhancements of its genetically modified parent.  A seed group of perhaps
less than a dozen modified individuals should get the ball rolling nicely. 
The biological half of this program shall be joined with an equal
technological program to create computers, living spaces, and other
technological interfaces specifically engineered to their ergonomic and
sensory convenience.  The resulting monkey with a wearable computer interface
assistant will certainly have no problems meeting and exceeding the human
mental performance standards necessary for the environment of space
exploration.  Their smaller stature, and natural anthropomorphism will make
for not merely a sufficient replacement for humans, but a superior
improvement thereon.

And of course these monkey's will all be Virians!  What better proof of our
memetic fitness than the ability to cross the biological divide! :-)

Love,

-Jake, the CoV lab animal!


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Re: virus: Space Monkeys - The future is here!
« Reply #1 on: 2003-02-13 14:19:12 »
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MoEnzyme
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Re: virus: Space Monkeys - The future is here!
« Reply #2 on: 2003-02-13 14:49:58 »
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:-(

>:-<  grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!

I see that you hate my monkeys!!  How dare you insult their
intelligence!!!!!!!!!!

How DARE you imply their lack of RESPONSIBILITY!!!

You simply just naturally assume the superiority of human stock DON'T you,
you speciesist ANIMAL HATER!!!!  I'm going to throw YOUR worthless
contribution into the PIT to be GATOR FATED, once I blow off a little of the
righteous anger that you have inspired in me!!!!

AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Who else in this pathetic excuse of a Church sides with this INFIDEL!!!!  I
want to know my enemies UP FRONT and honest!  I've had enough with this
cowardly conspiring against me and my obviously superior memeset.

-JAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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MoEnzyme
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Re: virus: Space Monkeys - The future is here!
« Reply #3 on: 2003-02-14 14:08:42 »
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In a message dated 2/13/2003 1:23:59 PM Central Standard Time,
ishnigarrab@earthlink.net writes:

Jkr438@aol.com wrote:

> The problem:  continuing inefficiencies of manned space flight
> juxtaposed with the real human need to explore and feel involved with
> it, brings us to the solution to this problem which both maximizes the
> scientific knowledge yield on the one hand, (perhaps even better than
> the conventionally envisioned robotics programs) and uniquely
> satisfies our transhumanist need for involvement in that exploration
> in ways that currently envisioned manned programs cannot.
>
> The answer:  Space Monkeys.  Genetically engineered monkeys, exact
> species as yet undetermined.  General body plan, small, four grasping
> appendages and prehensile tail already more fit for zero G environment
> than human.  Genetic modifications mostly centering on vocal
> refinements for speech.  Modest improvements to cerebral abilities
> include primarily more efficient blood flow and chemical connections
> (much like our lab animal mouse "Doogie", all praise unto him!).  For
> the beginning specimen we should probably chose an individual with a
> naturally larger braincase within the variation of its species.  A
> minimalist ethic in making these modifications should be followed
> leaving the product still in essence a member of its original species
> capable of normal reproduction therewith, and in appearance virtually
> indistinguishable.  A further general rule of dominance regarding
> these modifications should be followed such that reproduction with
> their own unmodified cohorts, will generally produce heterozygous
> specimens that retain the enhancements of its genetically modified
> parent.  A seed group of perhaps less than a dozen modified
> individuals should get the ball rolling nicely.  The biological half
> of this program shall be joined with an equal technological program to
> create computers, living spaces, and other technological interfaces
> specifically engineered to their ergonomic and sensory convenience.
>  The resulting monkey with a wearable computer interface assistant
> will certainly have no problems meeting and exceeding the human mental
> performance standards necessary for the environment of space
> exploration.  Their smaller stature, and natural anthropomorphism will
> make for not merely a sufficient replacement for humans, but a
> superior improvement thereon.
>
> And of course these monkey's will all be Virians!  What better proof
> of our memetic fitness than the ability to cross the biological
> divide! :-)
>
> Love,
>
> -Jake, the CoV lab animal!

[Ishnigarrab] The primary problem I could see with this issue, is that when
you send a human in space, this human has a certain social and cultural
background that supports the acquisition of knowledge, and the respect for
both ethical standards for the treatment of the humans and other monkeys
involved with the system as well as the understanding of the responsibility
of maintaining the craft and tools of which they will be interacting with and
controling. Will a monkey realise that playing around with the controls
result in failure of the mission, either fatally or in concept -- will he
crash the shuttle (or any varients thereof) or not produce the desired
results?

[Jake] Our space monkeys will most likely share our culture to a significant
degree, though their personal interests within that environment will probably
vary based on their unique circumstances.  I think they will certainly
understand and avoid fatal mistakes for themselves.  Whether or not they will
produce the desired results may remain up in the air.  Perhaps when they get
space born they decide they don't like the experiments arranged for them and
instead change them up or try their own?  Maybe, maybe not.  But I think that
if we realize that once created they become partners rather than slaves, and
if we include them in decision making, then we can avoid a lot of these
conflicts.

[Ishnigarrab] Will this monkey feel confortable with humans, or perhaps the
monkey just might not care about successfully fulfilling the mission. I would
sugest extensive testing of the social capabilities of these modified
monkeys, not just in thier ability to communicate, but in thier willingness
to communicate and or thier willingness to participate at all. You can't just
splice a few genes, raise it, and expect this new creature to bow to your
whims and do what it's told -- it is a creature with it's own ability to make
decisions, and the greater possibility of the monkey making poor or
undesirable decisions than that of a human who has obligations to his species
and social structure.

[Jake] Here's who I see it working out.  Not all monkeys will become space
monkeys.  Many if not most will remain back home but will have various
involvements in decision making and development of such a space program. 
This will of course, just as with humans, depend on their individual
performance and desires.

[Ishnigarrab] Even with all that aside, what other implications could arise
from a
new, more intelligent species suddenly sprouting up, either morally,
socially, or biologically?

[Jake]  Probably not significantly different implications than those that
arise from humans from different cultures dealing with each other within the
species.  I could imagine some variations on themes arising, but I would
expect similar dynamics.  We already deal with problems of pseudo-speciation
within our own species http://virus.lucifer.com/wiki/UTism , I would imagine
that real speciation wouldn't prove as surprising as you would think.  I
could in fact imagine many humans preferring the company of another
intelligent species over their own, translating into a hypothesis that
pseudo-speciation may actually prove more socially vicious than real
speciation.

Love,

-Jake


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Re: virus: Space Monkeys - The future is here!
« Reply #4 on: 2003-02-14 14:51:16 »
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[Jake]
I could in fact imagine many humans preferring the company of another
intelligent species over their own, translating into a hypothesis that
pseudo-speciation may actually prove more socially vicious than real
speciation.

[Michelle]
Sign me up!  I'd much rather hang out with the space monkeys/lemurs.


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Re: virus: Space Monkeys - The future is here!
« Reply #5 on: 2003-02-14 19:08:45 »
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Re: virus: Space Monkeys - The future is here!
« Reply #6 on: 2003-02-14 19:19:29 »
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MoEnzyme
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Re: virus: Space Monkeys - The future is here!
« Reply #7 on: 2003-02-17 15:38:55 »
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In a message dated 2/14/2003 6:25:43 PM Central Standard Time,
ishnigarrab@earthlink.net writes:

[snip...]

> [Jake] Our space monkeys will most likely share our culture to a
> significant degree, though their personal interests within that
> environment will probably vary based on their unique circumstances.  I
> think they will certainly understand and avoid fatal mistakes for
> themselves.  Whether or not they will produce the desired results may
> remain up in the air.  Perhaps when they get space born they decide
> they don't like the experiments arranged for them and instead change
> them up or try their own?  Maybe, maybe not.  But I think that if we
> realize that once created they become partners rather than slaves, and
> if we include them in decision making, then we can avoid a lot of
> these conflicts.

Hypathetically: I'm a genetically engineered monkey, raised by
scientists, in a cage (most likely) with not close friends or relatives.
I have nothing to loose and no one to come home too. When I get in
space, why should I return to that little blue circle out there? I have
nothing to look forward to except for maybe a banana and my cage. I
don't care about fame or fortune, or the human race, I don't identify
with them.

[Jake2] First off, I think that not all of our monkeys will go into space. 
We will keep a significant colony here on Earth.  Those obviously not
interested in going will stay here.  Perhaps they will find other projects to
involve themselves with here, either supporting the space expedition in some
way, or even unrelated things.  They being social animals will want to return
to Earth for their own group if not for us.  I think you underestimate,
however, the degree to which they will identify with us.  They will in time
develop their own culture, but in the beginning they will be dependent on
humans for knowledge just as any newborn.  In any case, we will also be
selecting a species and original specimens for the kinds of characteristics
that will most suit them for the role we envision.  This would include things
like temperament as well as physical requirements.  In short they will have
been both selected and then engineered to meet the role that they will play. 
Obviously we do not expect all individuals thus produced to play along, so
then there is the final step of self-selection for those individuals that do
play along.  I think all of these things taken into account will ensure that
this program works.  Of course we can expect problems to arise, but I don't
see any reason to see them as insurmountable.

> [Jake] Here's who I see it working out.  Not all monkeys will become
> space monkeys.  Many if not most will remain back home but will have
> various involvements in decision making and development of such a
> space program.  This will of course, just as with humans, depend on
> their individual performance and desires.

So why monkeys? We have humans who make these decisions. If your
argument would be that these monkeys would be more intelligent than
humans, why don't we just engineer smarter humans?

[Jake2] Good question.  Two reasons.  First is that monkeys are already
better adapted physically to Zero G and space environments than humans, go
back to my original post on the subject.  Second is that genetically
engineering humans right now would probably run into much more political and
social opposition than genetically engineering another species -- as we have
already been doing that with no opposition in agricultural areas.

> [Jake] Probably not significantly different implications than those
> that arise from humans from different cultures dealing with each other
> within the species.  I could imagine some variations on themes
> arising, but I would expect similar dynamics.  We already deal with
> problems of pseudo-speciation within our own species
> http://virus.lucifer.com/wiki/UTism , I would imagine that real
> speciation wouldn't prove as surprising as you would think.  I could
> in fact imagine many humans preferring the company of another
> intelligent species over their own, translating into a hypothesis that
> pseudo-speciation may actually prove more socially vicious than real
> speciation.

This is a very interesting concept, and if your point is that advanced
monkey are just a cool idea, and should be introduced to society, hell
yeah! But originally it seemed your point was to use them as space
fodder. Although, while most intelligent, reasonable people might not
develope prejudice to these new creatures, the average person most
likely would! They would underestimate them and think they're ugly or
smelly, or whatever. It would wierd out a lot of the 'average, normal'
populice to pull up to McDonalds and see a monkey in the window,
regardless of expectations. Perhaps I'm just underestimating the human
species, but this is what I would predict happening, unless there was
some major PR campeigns for pro-monkey tolerance, or some such shit.

[Jake2] good points.  I would certainly expect to have some PR to foster
positive memes for space monkeys.  We could even have some good sci fi movies
made, complete with lines of children's toys, both plushy and action figures!
And computer games! etc. . .

Ishnigarrab




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Re: virus: Space Monkeys - The future is here!
« Reply #8 on: 2003-02-17 16:20:33 »
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I'm assuming that everyone here has read The Uplift Saga series by David
Brin?

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Re: virus: Space Monkeys - The future is here!
« Reply #9 on: 2003-02-17 16:54:00 »
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Re: virus: Space Monkeys - The future is here!
« Reply #10 on: 2003-02-17 17:31:21 »
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It's been a long time since I read it, but it illustrates an intergalactic
society mired in allegiances owed by "client" races to their patron species,
who "uplift" them to sentience, in a long sequence going back to the
mythical Progenitors.  Humans are regarded as upstarts and somewhat savage
because they reached sentience without benefit of a patron, and have
uplifted 2 species on their own - chimps and dolphins.  Some parts of the
narrative follow the chimps and their social experience pretty closely and
intimately.  It's fascinating - I've been meaning to re-read in order for a
few years now.  Much of the narrative is about intergalactic politics, but
there's also much time devoted to what it would mean to be "uplifted".

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