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Walpurgis
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God's Eternal Pain
« on: 2002-06-13 03:52:32 »
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If God, an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being was to exist, his pain (in loving empathy with ours, or due to our own insults) would add an infinite and timeless quality to this world in addition to its finite wretchedness. Because of this, God could not justify his own existence.

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David Lucifer
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Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #1 on: 2002-06-15 14:02:10 »
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Sorry, how does that conclusion follow from those assumptions?
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Walpurgis
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Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #2 on: 2002-06-15 15:25:54 »
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God is supposedly omnibenevolent. If so, he would not want to allow infinite pain in his creation. If he felt pain, this pain would be infinite, assuming he were an infinite being. Therefore, he could not justify his own existence; or at least, his own pain. If he were to eliminate pain, could he still be omnibenevolent? (how would he care without the capacity to empathise?)

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David Lucifer
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Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #3 on: 2002-06-15 23:18:07 »
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[Walpurgis] God is supposedly omnibenevolent. If so, he would not want to allow infinite pain in his creation.

[Lucifer] Granted, but his creation doesn't have infinite pain.

[Walpurgis] If he felt pain, this pain would be infinite, assuming he were an infinite being.

[Lucifer] Maybe infinite beings feel no pain, or only as much pain as they want to feel.

[Walpurgis] Therefore, he could not justify his own existence; or at least, his own pain. If he were to eliminate pain, could he still be omnibenevolent? (how would he care without the capacity to empathise?)

[Lucifer] Maybe infinite beings have no need to justify their existence. Where are you getting your assumptions about how infinite beings must behave?
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Walpurgis
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Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #4 on: 2002-06-16 01:23:04 »
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[Walpurgis] God is supposedly omnibenevolent. If so, he would not want to allow infinite pain in his creation.

[Lucifer] Granted, but his creation doesn't have infinite pain.

[Walpurgis2] It does if he has any involvement/relation to it (and/or if there is a hell). A helless ontology with a deistic god would circumvent this problem (but this is not the typical xtian view).

[Walpurgis] If he felt pain, this pain would be infinite, assuming he were an infinite being.

[Lucifer] Maybe infinite beings feel no pain, or only as much pain as they want to feel.

[Walpurgis2] If he felt no pain, how could he be benevolent? How could he understand pain at all? If god is all-powerful, I'm sure he can switch his pain on and off however - but then; how useful would it be?

[Walpurgis] Therefore, he could not justify his own existence; or at least, his own pain. If he were to eliminate pain, could he still be omnibenevolent? (how would he care without the capacity to empathise?)

[Lucifer] Maybe infinite beings have no need to justify their existence. Where are you getting your assumptions about how infinite beings must behave?

[Walpurgis2] I'm not. I'm discussing the *concept* of god. But if you are saying we can't do that, then you are asking us to be fideists.

I don't see the concept of an omni-powerful/knowing/loving god. "Omni" is so much overkill and results in strange paradoxes.

Could god create a mountain so big and heavy, he couldn't move it?
Could god destroy himself?

If the answer is "no" either way, he is limited.

That said, one could answer "yes" and accept absurdity as a part of religious belief like Kierkegaard did: "I believe because it is absurd".

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Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #5 on: 2002-06-25 11:26:30 »
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Quote:
God is supposedly omnibenevolent.


That rather depends on your conception of god, of course. Not all religions assert the benevolence of deities. Shiva? Loki? Dionysus?
« Last Edit: 2002-06-25 11:28:52 by kharin » Report to moderator   Logged
David Lucifer
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Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #6 on: 2002-06-25 13:29:23 »
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Quote from: Walpurgis on 2002-06-16 01:23:04   
That said, one could answer "yes" and accept absurdity as a part of religious belief like Kierkegaard did: "I believe because it is absurd".

I think that sums up the popular conception of a monotheist god. Except the believers call it "mysterious".
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Walpurgis
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Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #7 on: 2002-06-26 04:47:49 »
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[kharin] That rather depends on your conception of god,

Of course. I was referring to the typical xtian-muslim concept.

[Lucifer] I think that sums up the popular conception of a monotheist god. Except the believers call it "mysterious".

Not sure about that. Must believers would not agree that "mysterious" is synonymous ith "absurd". Lots of things are mysterious - the central mystery of existence (whatever that is for you) many people call god. I accept that there is mystery and am happy to speculate about it, but refer to see theism as the main or most important interpretation of it. The absurdity defence is different - Kierkegaard was illustrating that reason has limits. He was espousing a sort of feidism.
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Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #8 on: 2004-02-02 19:49:52 »
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Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #9 on: 2004-07-23 19:28:19 »
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Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #10 on: 2004-07-24 13:24:37 »
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Heh... a god subject to and constrained by logic, non-contradiction, even human wordplay... But then again, humans don't have full control on their own creations either, do they?

That is why the standard reply of the theologists of omnipotent gods is "See... it's a mystery." Well, if God created logic, she can take her ball home any time she wants. ;-)
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Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #11 on: 2004-07-24 14:43:19 »
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Quote from: rhinoceros on 2004-07-24 13:24:37   

That is why the standard reply of the theologists of omnipotent gods is "See... it's a mystery."

like mankind?

Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind. - Jack Handy.

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Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #12 on: 2004-10-16 17:20:47 »
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Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #13 on: 2004-11-25 15:23:34 »
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Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #14 on: 2004-12-04 15:12:13 »
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