If God, an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being was to exist, his pain (in loving empathy with ours, or due to our own insults) would add an infinite and timeless quality to this world in addition to its finite wretchedness. Because of this, God could not justify his own existence.
Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #2 on: 2002-06-15 15:25:54 »
God is supposedly omnibenevolent. If so, he would not want to allow infinite pain in his creation. If he felt pain, this pain would be infinite, assuming he were an infinite being. Therefore, he could not justify his own existence; or at least, his own pain. If he were to eliminate pain, could he still be omnibenevolent? (how would he care without the capacity to empathise?)
Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #3 on: 2002-06-15 23:18:07 »
[Walpurgis] God is supposedly omnibenevolent. If so, he would not want to allow infinite pain in his creation.
[Lucifer] Granted, but his creation doesn't have infinite pain.
[Walpurgis] If he felt pain, this pain would be infinite, assuming he were an infinite being.
[Lucifer] Maybe infinite beings feel no pain, or only as much pain as they want to feel.
[Walpurgis] Therefore, he could not justify his own existence; or at least, his own pain. If he were to eliminate pain, could he still be omnibenevolent? (how would he care without the capacity to empathise?)
[Lucifer] Maybe infinite beings have no need to justify their existence. Where are you getting your assumptions about how infinite beings must behave?
Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #4 on: 2002-06-16 01:23:04 »
[Walpurgis] God is supposedly omnibenevolent. If so, he would not want to allow infinite pain in his creation.
[Lucifer] Granted, but his creation doesn't have infinite pain.
[Walpurgis2] It does if he has any involvement/relation to it (and/or if there is a hell). A helless ontology with a deistic god would circumvent this problem (but this is not the typical xtian view).
[Walpurgis] If he felt pain, this pain would be infinite, assuming he were an infinite being.
[Lucifer] Maybe infinite beings feel no pain, or only as much pain as they want to feel.
[Walpurgis2] If he felt no pain, how could he be benevolent? How could he understand pain at all? If god is all-powerful, I'm sure he can switch his pain on and off however - but then; how useful would it be?
[Walpurgis] Therefore, he could not justify his own existence; or at least, his own pain. If he were to eliminate pain, could he still be omnibenevolent? (how would he care without the capacity to empathise?)
[Lucifer] Maybe infinite beings have no need to justify their existence. Where are you getting your assumptions about how infinite beings must behave?
[Walpurgis2] I'm not. I'm discussing the *concept* of god. But if you are saying we can't do that, then you are asking us to be fideists.
I don't see the concept of an omni-powerful/knowing/loving god. "Omni" is so much overkill and results in strange paradoxes.
Could god create a mountain so big and heavy, he couldn't move it? Could god destroy himself?
If the answer is "no" either way, he is limited.
That said, one could answer "yes" and accept absurdity as a part of religious belief like Kierkegaard did: "I believe because it is absurd".
Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #7 on: 2002-06-26 04:47:49 »
[kharin] That rather depends on your conception of god,
Of course. I was referring to the typical xtian-muslim concept.
[Lucifer] I think that sums up the popular conception of a monotheist god. Except the believers call it "mysterious".
Not sure about that. Must believers would not agree that "mysterious" is synonymous ith "absurd". Lots of things are mysterious - the central mystery of existence (whatever that is for you) many people call god. I accept that there is mystery and am happy to speculate about it, but refer to see theism as the main or most important interpretation of it. The absurdity defence is different - Kierkegaard was illustrating that reason has limits. He was espousing a sort of feidism.
God is supposedly the most loving being in the whole universe and he lets shit happen to us because it is what we diserve. Him being connected to us in such a way, wont Karma have an affect on him. Maybe it already did, cause truly, this world is getting worse by the minute. God makes man, man makes man, man destroys man, world gets colder.
Could god create a mountain so big and heavy, he couldn't move it?
"His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible...meaningless combinations of words to not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words 'God can'".
-C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
Whether or not you agree with the philosophy and writings of Lewis, this is a logical point that can't be denied. For example, if you were to say "God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it", you would have said something that had an inherrent contradiction. That, in and of itself, is a fallous statement regardless of who it is directed to or challenging. How is it possible for any being, however omnipotent, to comply with meaningless lunacy?
Re:God's Eternal Pain
« Reply #10 on: 2004-07-24 13:24:37 »
Heh... a god subject to and constrained by logic, non-contradiction, even human wordplay... But then again, humans don't have full control on their own creations either, do they?
That is why the standard reply of the theologists of omnipotent gods is "See... it's a mystery." Well, if God created logic, she can take her ball home any time she wants. ;-)
That is why the standard reply of the theologists of omnipotent gods is "See... it's a mystery."
like mankind?
Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind. - Jack Handy.
God is supposedly the most loving being in the whole universe and he lets shit happen to us because it is what we diserve. Him being connected to us in such a way, wont Karma have an affect on him. Maybe it already did, cause truly, this world is getting worse by the minute. God makes man, man makes man, man destroys man, world gets colder.
Actually, God created laws, natural laws like gravity and spiritual laws. So if one violates these laws, like defying gravity, it's not so much that we "deserve" it, we just stepped out of the confines of these laws. The same goes for the spiritual laws, God didn't create these laws (10 commandments, greatest commandment etc) as some kind of control, rather it was for our protection. He knows the limits of our humanity and knows better than us what is good for us. So when He says for instance, not to steal, He knows it is best for society and for our own humanity.
God is supposedly the most loving being in the whole universe and he lets shit happen to us because it is what we diserve. Him being connected to us in such a way, wont Karma have an affect on him. Maybe it already did, cause truly, this world is getting worse by the minute. God makes man, man makes man, man destroys man, world gets colder.
Actually, God created laws, natural laws like gravity and spiritual laws. So if one violates these laws, like defying gravity, it's not so much that we "deserve" it, we just stepped out of the confines of these laws. The same goes for the spiritual laws, God didn't create these laws (10 commandments, greatest commandment etc) as some kind of control, rather it was for our protection. He knows the limits of our humanity and knows better than us what is good for us. So when He says for instance, not to steal, He knows it is best for society and for our own humanity.
Thanks for letting me share
So then, if we don't 'deserve' it, why is it that it happens to us? If he just lets it happen, how can he be benevolent in all ways? It's funny, if people say "God is love", how can he let horrible things happen even to people that say they love him?
That's how I got out of xtianity. I believed in, nay, I -loved- this God. And yet, I still had my mental problems, I still got the shit kicked out of me twice a day, and to top it off, I got to be in constant fear of Hell. Nobody that truly 'is love' could let things like all this happen to someone that truly loved him. It was at that point when I realized that either God did not exist, or God was a completely apathetic creature. Since all evidence I have seen points to the former, that's what I would say is true.
Also, the reference to 'natural laws': Are you saying it is 'wrong' to endeavour to break them? I will make no assumptions that it is or is not possible to break what have so far been observed as laws. But, theoretically, if it were possible, would something like FTL travel or anti-gravity technology be 'wrong'? Forgive me if I have misunderstood your post and you are simply making an analogy.
I hope I have remained rational here and not let my bias overcome my reason...
If God was all-powerful, then he should and would be able to control the logical conclusions and thought processes of his creations, not to mention all observations made by them. So, this argument really can't go anywhere; you can't exactly argue with the concept of a person who can control the definition of anything you're trying to debate against him or her with.