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   Author  Topic: If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..  (Read 4001 times)
Durazac15
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Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #15 on: 2004-04-05 20:08:58 »
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I don't see any reason to think that we have free will. But I like to think I do. It seems fairly obvious to me that we are biological machines. Machines no matter how complex, follow the laws of physics - they do not create the physics. As such, free will is an attractive illusion. Free will is necessary if you have God - otherwise one could not choose to follow Him", and gain his blessings.  Yet he knows our every motivation and thought, He knows our hearts and our paths. (notice I said paths - not path). If one is a determinist, then he cannot know God - for one must choose God. A strange contradiction.
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Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #16 on: 2004-05-18 15:18:53 »
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Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #17 on: 2004-07-18 12:53:29 »
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Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #18 on: 2004-07-20 09:32:19 »
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Quote from: Hootie on 2004-07-18 12:53:29   

How are omniscience and free will linked in the first place?

Free Will is the ability to carry out an action.  Omniscience is knowing what action will be carried out.  In order for a God to have any task in removing Free Will he would have to use His Omnipotence.  Knowing something does not indicate the lack of ability to perform an action...it would simply mean knowing the action that was selected.

If I know in advance what you are going to choose, in what sense is your choice free? If you have only one option, the predestined choice, then you aren't free to choose anything else, are you? Hence, no free will.
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Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #19 on: 2004-07-20 17:45:45 »
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Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #20 on: 2004-07-23 19:12:55 »
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Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #21 on: 2004-09-27 05:37:22 »
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If I know in advance what you are going to choose, in what sense is your choice free? If you have only one option, the predestined choice, then you aren't free to choose anything else, are you? Hence, no free will.

IMHO, my freedom is not causally reduced (and thus negated if it be an absolute, either-free-or-not-category) THROUGH YOUR KNOWLEDGE of how I will decide. I cannot think this through thoroughly - there is something twisted about the matter - but I feel that an omniscient being could well know how one would act without diminishing that other beings free will. cf. my next post...


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In reality, we know that choices are presented to us constantly and we are free to go our own way.  So destiny, in this sense, is non-existant because it opens up a Pandora's Box of "what if"s.  You might just as well have limitless parallel universes.

Well. As Dennett put it, consciousness and along with it, free will, could be explained as a "benign user illusion" - you think you have it, because evolutionarily, it proved to enhance once's scope of action etc., but actually you don't. Yet I agree that while I can think I don't have free will, I cannot help but FEEL that I do - that just shows how powerful an illusion it is. It is a prerequisite of our existence.

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Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #22 on: 2004-09-27 05:39:14 »
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Coincidentally (see below), I thought this topic through just a few days ago. It’s true that omniscience itself is not an argument against free will. Combined with God’s actions in the world and a few other premises, it becomes problematic. This I my take at it [please note that I had to translate it, so it might sound somewhat awkward now and then…]:

General topic: God’s actions
God is supposed to be omnipotent and omniscient – humans are supposed to possess free will. Why this is a logical contradiction.

1. premise: God possesses omnipotence and omniscience and puts them to use
A narrow understanding of omnipotence implies that God is able to do ANYTHING at ANY GIVEN TIME IN THE PRESENT. In this case, the following argument would be invalid, but God would thus be bound to the time-axis and he would be denied the attribute of omniscience: encompassing omnipotence – thus, a broad understanding of it – (to be able to do ANYTHING, whether in past, presence or future) can only be realised if omniscience is given, too – omnipotence and omniscience are mutually conditional: omniscience at a certain moment means, omniscience about all moments: for a certain moment is historical, omniscience thus implies present AND past: omniscience of past and present, combined with sufficient computing capacity (as implied by the attribute of omnipotence), means, to know how the FUTURE will develop on the basis of the past, because all inherent laws and all values would be known. It means to know all possibilities that can be realised on the basis of one or more actions, and thus to be able to cause through one’s action(s) any consequence.

2. premise: Humans possess free will.
Free will effectively means to have true independence in one’s decisions. On this proposition the Christian ethic is founded – had humans no free will, they could not sin or do good, for all their actions would be objectively equal. There would neither be room for decisions nor any standards of action.

These premises are mutually exclusive, for if God knew anytime what effects his actions had, all his actions in regard to humans were a manipulation, even his first (say, to forbid to eat from the tree of knowledge) would take away the humans’ free will [nb, drowning Egyptians in the red sea, or the whole world in the Flood doesn’t do much good to free will either]. God would have known at that time WHATEVER WOULD HAPPEN FROM NOW ON, and any prohibition would have been a hollow phrase, for God knew the humans to hasten into their inevitable doom already, calling the results of his own actions “sin” and blaming them on the humans. (…)

Every assumption of a free will (mostly identical with the notion of a “soul“) is negated the instance the “force” which conferred it – which must be transcendent and not immanent, otherwise it would be just another environmental factor (another topic entirely) – influences the humans’ actions and thus their free will.

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Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #23 on: 2004-09-27 12:10:54 »
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I believe this old thing is germaine here.

http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=56;action=display;threadid=28497


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Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #24 on: 2005-02-01 09:46:27 »
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Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #25 on: 2005-02-08 05:05:40 »
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Quote from: Lukian The Wizard on 2002-06-11 07:16:01   

If God knows all past/present/future,
How can one have free will?

Thinking outside the box, perhaps this is one of the brilliant unexplainable theories provided by the authors of Christian dogma to prevent denial or deconstruction.  Perhaps the only true way to have free will is to not be a Christian.  Perhaps this little tidbit was just added in later to seal up the cracks.

My favorite question is this:  If God is perfect, how could he also be jealous?
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Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #26 on: 2005-04-24 19:23:17 »
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Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #27 on: 2005-04-24 23:49:36 »
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Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #28 on: 2005-04-25 14:29:22 »
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Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #29 on: 2005-04-25 15:28:28 »
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If god isn't bound by logic then he can do evil acts while remaining perfectly good. Are you sure you want to go there?
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