for number 2 though, it is impossible for us to go against gods will, since he knew what would happen when he created us, and still created us, it must be gods will.
Hmm, Yes he could know all possible futures, but I think he would see the future that will happen. While he could see what would happen if events occured differently, he would also know which events will occur, since he is all knowing. Of course, it all depends on how you try to define omniscience and god.
My concept of omniscience is that the fourth dimension, would have to become like our first three dimensions, and can be browsed through. Omniscience would give you a view of the future.
Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #5 on: 2002-06-25 09:56:56 »
Poor God... Trapped in his (her?) own omniscience without a free will...
But there is still hope: Parallel universes, so that all possible futures really happen, and God having a foot in each and every one of them. So, omniscience could be retained, although rendered totally useless.
Now, this is a really hard problem: Sorting out your good and evil selves from different parallel universes and sending some of them to paradise and some of them to hell.
Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #6 on: 2002-06-25 11:20:31 »
I believe the 'official' doctrinal position is one that has been omitted; god is omniscient but refrains from exercising that ability. Of course, any particular piece of asinine nonsense is possible when considering theology. Almost by definition it is awash with get-out clauses, in much the same way as sci-fi fans are adept at inventing plausible explanations for continuity errors in their favourite series. Now, there's a novel analogy....
I find it hard to see how you can be all-knowing and refrain from excercising that ability.... Although I guess it is a little like a computer playing a human at a game, it can play without using knowledge it wouldn't have if it were a human. (i.e. the computer knows what is under the "fog of war" but doesn't use the data to formulate strategy.)
It would have to be like ignoring things you know...
I don't think we have free will. We are out of control systems. The only thing we can do is to let our ego inhibit our behavior through fear. God created us to learn more about his own creator. We are all Gods with Amnesia.
My own views on this subject are somewhat mixed, and that is partly due to the many different ways one can actually define "free will". It seems to me every argument I seem to read on the subject, seems to look at the question backwards: it says 'yes' or 'no', makes an argument, and then defines it by telling the reader what it thinks free will is.
Until one can truly define what one means by the question "is our will 'free'", then we can't answer it meaningfully.
The way I see it. Free will is the concept that we can make decisions that are independant from the effects our enviorment has on us. In any religious or spiritual belief this is where the soul comes in. A contiousness made up neither of matter nor energy, independant of the world yet attached to our phisical body. this soul is then is supposed to take over our decision making when dealing with matters of morality. the little voice that tells us what the right thing to do is, wheres the other one, the one that tells us to do the selfish thing, or the thing that needs a justification, is our ego.
Even though god knows your soul, he has no Controll over its decision making. He can throw anything phisical at you, but since the soul is not affected by matter nor energy he cannot rob you of your "free will"
thats how I see it if you belive in a soul. I myself am sceptical, I like to think that "god" is somthing more along the lines of an abstract contiousness composed of the multiverse. And that my actions are reactions to causation. And my ego is a necesary illusion to understand said causation.
We are all victims of Causation, untill we realize it.
In order to understand how an all knowing God, and idea of free will can exist coexist, one must understand that the all knowing being must exist outside of the realm of our existence. By doing so it forces the idea of the all knowing being to exist outside of our understanding of time. To the all knowing being, all time happends in a blink of an eye; the end has already happend in the all knowing beings perspective.
It would simular to a person observing a painting. The creation of painting is not what the observers sees, but the finished painting. Once it is finished it is what it is, any choice that occured during the painting's creation are over, in a since it is dead.
The same is with our lives. We paint ourselves throughout our lives. And once we are dead, that is it, we are finished creating ourself. And this the all knowing beings knoweldge of us. It only knows our end painting of ourself.
I'm not sure about other people, but I have reason to believe that I have free will, in spite of those who would have me believe that I have no options.
Re:If God knows all past/present/future, How can one have free will..
« Reply #14 on: 2004-03-09 19:16:03 »
I've been giving a lot of thought to this question recently.
I think part of what makes the idea of free will, in the sense of causal indeterminism, so attractive to many people is that they don't truly want to believe that they are in any way predictable.
The idea that we may just be a mechanistic process cuts into our deeply held, innate prejudices about our existence. I know I don't like the thought that an analysis of my past and my DNA would mean I was essentially predictable. My sense of individuality and my sense of purpose rebel at the idea.
But I can't help thinking about two basic truths.
Firstly, that we are at the mercy of our own brain processes. A sufferer from schizophrenia can't stop the malfunction of his abstract thoughts through sheer will. An aphasia sufferer can't make the affected language centre regenerate spontaneously. That we possess the ability to make choices, it is due to an evolved faculty of our mind.
That we possess the ability to make choices I don't question. But can we honestly say that this brain mechanism is somehow unaffected by the rules of cause and effect? That these choices are totally 'free' in the sense that our past and genes don't make us more likely to make one choice over another?
The second truth is one that is under our noses most of the time, and consequently is very hard to spot: if human beings were truly causally indeterminable, we wouldn't be able to exist as social beings. Think it through for a moment- would the law be able to deter wrongdoing? Would advertisers be able to sell products? Would conmen be able to con their marks? Would politicians know what to say in speeches?
All our theories about the world are based on models of consistent human behaviour. This consistency is the enemy of causal indeterminism.
Of course, as I stated earlier on this thread, it really is a matter of how you define free will. If you believe the definition of free will is simply that you, and not some other conscious, morally responsible agency is actively controlling you or influencing your choices (as in the case of chemical brainwashing or having a gun held to your head), then sure- I can't argue with that, and wouldn't want to.
Anything more, ie the idea that humans, alone of all the entities in the universe are somehow completely unaffected by the flow of cause and effect is to me just anthrocentric and unscientific pandering to prejudice.
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