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2011-03-13 11:00:11 #virus from 2011-03-13 11::00 (showing messages 1-300) Bookmark the permanent url.
11:00:11LuciferI have to bug out before noon cause some people are coming to look at the house
11:00:16Sat"objective" or subjective time?
11:00:27SatBecause for me it doesn't start for an hour.
11:00:34Sat* Sat nods
11:00:41LuciferWelcome to the Virus weekly chat!
11:00:46Luciferfirst one in almost 4 years
11:00:57Sat* Sat appluads politely
11:00:57Lucifertoday's topic was suggested by Sat
11:01:04LuciferDominion Theory
11:01:29Satthe 4 year isn't completely accurate. we used to chat in SL
11:02:12Luciferok, 4 years since the last archived chat
11:02:54Luciferwhich also took place in SL
11:02:58SatSo, ya. Anyhow. Back in the day Lucifer and I were speculating about virtual worlds post-singularity, and we came up with dominion theory.
11:03:16Luciferso what is the basic idea?
11:03:34LuciferI envision a future that contains a multitude of virtual worlds
11:04:00LuciferEveryone that is online will have the ability to create their own world with their own rules
11:04:02MoEnzyme* MoEnzyme has returned
11:04:12SatI seem to remember the essence being that one could create worlds which for all purposes are real, and each world would have it's own rules.
11:04:23Lucifer* Lucifer nods
11:04:26Luciferwb Mo
11:04:32SatWithin those worlds one would be bound by the rules, etc.
11:04:52SatI also remember thinking of a dominion as an extension of one's own psyche, in a sense
11:05:28LuciferDominions will compete for people to visit
11:05:34MoEnzymePerhaps then we should call it "virtural cominion theory", to distinguish it from dominionism.
11:05:39SatFor me the idea is inspired by the LaVeyan idea of total environments and Localroger's PI novel.
11:05:43Luciferbut visitors will have to play be rules or be banished
11:06:17LuciferYou can call it what you like, Mo
11:06:18MoEnzyme"virtual dominion theory" even.
11:06:21Satand rules could include things like once you enter you cannot leave "alive."
11:06:36LuciferThere are dozens of uses of "dominion"
11:06:39MoEnzyme* MoEnzyme likes "virtual dominion theory"
11:07:06SatThe interesting thing about dominion theory is how it could be used to illustrate relativity in ethics
11:07:16Lucifer* Lucifer nods
11:07:32Satwell that and being the god of a reality.
11:07:33LuciferDominions allow like-minded people to associate
11:07:39MoEnzymeThe Church of Virus BBS is a kind of dominion then, right?
11:07:44Sat* Sat nods
11:07:45MoEnzymeLucifer's dominion even.
11:07:49Sata low res dominion
11:08:00Luciferyes, it could be considered a proto-dominion
11:08:01MoEnzymeBecause he can banish people who spam his BBS.
11:08:07Luciferlike almost any online community
11:08:35Luciferso one way to think about it is what is the future of online communities given current trends
11:08:48SatOne way to think of Dominions as we envisioned them is online communities with such advanced tech that they become alternate realities.
11:08:55MoEnzymeI mean of course Lucifer is just one of many Archons whom he may consult with, but unltimately he is the administrator so it's his dominion.
11:09:11Luciferand I think current trends point to VRs like SecondLife and MMORPGs
11:09:43MoEnzymeWell, is there any reason that it has to be limited to VRs like these?
11:09:55SatNo actually not.
11:10:12MoEnzymeCouldn't any online social networking site be a dominion?
11:10:19MoEnzymeLike Facebook for example.
11:10:21SatFetishistic role play could be another type of primative dominion manifestation
11:10:41LuciferMoEnzyme, I think that would dilute the concept
11:11:04SatThe analogy is apt. Participants agree on rules beforehand, and push the envelope within them.
11:11:14MoEnzymehmmm, okay so that's a bit different from what Sat said.
11:11:30SatThe rules may or may not match very well with "normal" ethics and behaviour.
11:11:49MoEnzymeSo Church of Virus is a dominion and Facebook isn't. Is that the line?
11:11:49Luciferright, you could dilute it further to include football games
11:11:59SatBut within the Dominion it is consistent.
11:12:12LuciferI would not include CoV as it is today
11:12:21SatThe CoV could be considered a proto-dominion like a biological virus is an organism.
11:12:22MoEnzymeWhy not the CoV?
11:12:28LuciferCoV is not a VR
11:12:46MoEnzymeAh, so it DOES have to be a Virtual Reality.
11:13:05MoEnzymeoff line football games, and BDSM are not Virtual.
11:13:05SatI'd say the tech is irrelevant.
11:13:33SatIt has to be a reality, whether it's virtual, advanced tech, or a ritual, or roleplay.
11:13:34LuciferI'm willing to consider other definitions
11:14:16SatObviously the extension of the idea is to when tech is so advanced that virtual worlds and real worlds aren't different in a meaningful way
11:14:19MoEnzymewhat about a text based VR . . . like the old MUUDs?
11:14:31Luciferbut I'm reluctant to expand the definition so much it becomes meaningless
11:14:41Satwell all those things are like analogies MO.
11:14:56SatImagine for a moment that what we think of as reality is in fact a sim.
11:15:07SatWe are in the Universe Dominion
11:15:19Luciferusing my current definition there are no dominions yet
11:15:28SatWithin this Dominion there are natural laws we must obey.
11:15:45MoEnzymeOh OK. So a Second Life sim wouldn't count either.
11:16:10SatLucifer and I posit a time in the future where anyone could create a sim that would be for all intents and purposes an alternate reality
11:16:20Lucifer* Lucifer nods
11:16:23Satthat would be a Dominion
11:16:24MoEnzymeSo perhaps we can view the CoV BBS and Facebook as proto-dominions since there are no dominions yet.
11:16:39MoEnzyme* MoEnzyme nods
11:17:01SatWell perhaps not-proto Dominions, but maybe having elements of dominion.
11:17:48SatImagine what world you would create if you were God.
11:17:59MoEnzymeOkay, so still we can use social networking sites, the CoV BBS, and Second Life as proto-dominions in order to theorize about how future dominions will work since there aren't any real dominions yet.
11:18:00SatThat world would be your dominion.
11:18:08Sat* Sat nods
11:18:12MoEnzymeor at least no real virtual dominions yet.
11:18:52MoEnzymeOkay that makes some since.
11:18:55SatYes and to that I would also add examples of sexual roleplay and satanic ritual.
11:19:03LuciferWould you want to create a dominion that attracted a large number of visitors?
11:19:33SatPersonally no.
11:19:36MoEnzymeI guess it depend on what you wanted to do with your dominion. What counts as a large number of visitors?
11:19:49LuciferI'm guessing we will see large variation in accessibility as well
11:20:00SatMy dominion would act more like a strange attractor for like minded entities.
11:20:10Luciferlots of mainstream dominions, but many more niche ones
11:20:32Satand a lot of downright scary ones depending on one's own mind
11:20:54SatThere will be pedo play dominions, etc.
11:21:03Lucifer* Lucifer nods
11:21:21LuciferSo will some types of dominions be illegal?
11:21:36SatBy today's primative standards yes.
11:21:51LuciferI suggest that no dominions should be illegal because visiting is always voluntary
11:21:55MoEnzymewell, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar's_number sets a typical person's community of influence at about 150 individuals.
11:21:56SatBut I think when dominions are possible legality will be moot.
11:22:06Satexactly Lucifer
11:22:21MoEnzymeSo perhaps that might have some bearing on what social size you will want your dominion to hold.
11:22:39SatThat number Mo, is for primative meatspace.
11:22:54SatIn todays online communities one has far greater influence
11:23:14Luciferagreed, there are already online communities with far greater numbers
11:23:26MoEnzymeSat, true, but it relates to the capacity of the human neocortex to handle social relations whether they are IRL or virtual.
11:23:27SatBut I think the numbers are irrelevant, unless one is into competing in that manner.
11:23:49SatBy the time we have dominion we will have shed our meat.
11:23:50MoEnzymeNot so much about meatspace as it is about cognitive capacity.
11:24:05MoEnzymeSat, including our brains?
11:24:07LuciferSo I've been assuming that visiting a dominion is always voluntary, it that a safe assumption?
11:24:14SatWe will be cyber-organisms.
11:24:25SatThat's how I envision it Lucifer.
11:24:50SatI also envision that you won't be able to get into just any dominion based on desire to be there.
11:25:01SatYour very match would have to match the dominion.
11:25:05MoEnzymeWell, if we have to wait until we are completely uploaded into computers and no longer even have brains anymore, that could be a bit too far out to even theorize about.
11:25:11Satvery mind^
11:25:32LuciferI agree with Sat about matching
11:25:41LuciferI disagree with Sat about needing to shed our meat first
11:26:14MoEnzymeOkay so Lucifer and I are in agreement that it should at least be based on our current neural capacity somehow.
11:26:26MoEnzymeat least in terms of social network sizes.
11:26:39LuciferI think we will have very convincing VR before mind-uploading
11:26:41SatI guess my idea of Dominions is taken to an extreme. I envision them as choosing realities and being bound by that choice.
11:27:09MoEnzymeI agree with that last comment, Lucifer.
11:27:27SatLike assuming our current reality is a Dominion we chose to play in and we are bound to do so until we 'die.'
11:28:03Luciferif we do get mind-uploading tech, then dominions will maybe be inevitable
11:28:20MoEnzymeCertainly convincing VR may allow for some very large communities, however just like IRL communities they will have to work withing the cognitive capacities of the human brain.
11:28:25SatAssume for a moment you are actually a being of immense god-like power. Perhaps it would be fun to play at being mortal.
11:28:35MoEnzymeHence my invoking Dunbars number http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar's_number
11:28:46SatSo you sin off a thread to live the life you live now. fully bound by the rules of this game.
11:29:03SatThat's an example of one Dominion.
11:29:37MoEnzymeCertainly the "God" of the dominion may have a dominion with thousands or even millions of people within the dominion, but there is no way for that God to have a personal relationship with everyone in that dominion.
11:29:52LuciferI think the idea of God choosing to live a mortal life is a common trope in fiction and mythology
11:29:53SatWell Mo. Our reality has 6 billion or so players
11:30:00MoEnzymePerhaps he/she will delegate some, of course, but there are social limits.
11:30:10Satwe don't have to know all the players in a dominion to play within it.
11:30:24MoEnzymeSat, yes, true, but there is no one dominion master god thingy over all 6 billion people.
11:30:29MoEnzymeactually 7 billion now.
11:30:43Satwell what if the universe itself is the dominion master
11:30:50Satthe reality enforces the rules
11:30:57MoEnzymeRight, Sat. It's just a question of the social tastes of the dominion players.
11:32:20LuciferI think we can assume there will be wide variances in preferences that are accomodated by equally wide variances in dominions
11:32:30Sat* Sat nods
11:32:41LuciferCan we make any generalizations that are more specific?
11:32:57SatIn fact Dominions could be self organizing realities based on mind's affinities.
11:33:04SatShared tastes or beliefs
11:33:08LuciferWhat will all dominions have in common? I suggested that all will have voluntary membership.
11:33:53MoEnzymeRight, that would be different from the dominion of the entire world (7billion) since we don't have any choice of a different world.
11:33:57SatMy Dominion might be like the Hotel California... you can check in any time you like, but you can never leave.
11:33:59Sat* Sat grins
11:34:00Lucifer* Lucifer nods
11:34:33LuciferNo dominions will allow visitors to break the rules
11:34:34MoEnzymeSat, could you try it out before deciding to join?
11:34:55MoEnzymeLucifers question is similar to my mine.
11:35:00SatProbably not Mo.
11:35:19LuciferOr maybe rule-breaking will have automatic consequences
11:35:22MoEnzymeOkay, so Sat will probably have a smaller dominion than many.
11:35:28Sat* Sat grins
11:35:41SatI'd have many dominions as I had selves
11:36:08Satsome dominions would be shared with others, like a LuciSat dominion based on the shared intersection of our minds
11:36:19LuciferSome rules will be enforced like physics (no choice in the matter), some by convention and/or consequences
11:37:02MoEnzymeHow many players does Sat envision in his dominion?
11:37:15SatI think it's interesting to use the Universe as a Dominion example. If I assume it is I don't have to assume all humans are real.
11:37:39SatThis could in fact be my Dominion, and maybe 150 players are real
11:37:41LuciferI would expect it to be impossible to harm others in many if not most dominions
11:37:46Satthe rest could be NPCs.
11:37:51MoEnzyme* MoEnzyme predicts Sat's dominion size at less than 200
11:38:16MoEnzymeAh okay. That sounds like a workable Sat universe.
11:39:13LuciferLet's use "friend" to mean someone you have a friendly relationship with
11:39:15MoEnzymeCould people take a vacation from your dominion? Like check out for a week only?
11:39:19SatLucifer. I'm thinking we will naturally gravitate to and participate in the Dominions most suited to our minds.
11:39:30LuciferHow many friends do you really want given that you have finite attention?
11:39:38SatExplicit contractual agreements would be uneeded in such a case
11:40:16Satthe dominions would only have to allow those in who have mind signatures suited to the dominion.
11:40:54LuciferI'll have to think about "mind signatures"
11:41:03Satyour mind print
11:41:14Satyour OS!
11:41:30MoEnzymeWell I would think that if you wanted to attract people to your dominion especially if they can't check out, you might want to have some contractual understandings ahead of time before they join. Like a pre-nuptial agreement for a metaphorical example.
11:41:49LuciferI don't think you can predict future behavior by examining the code
11:41:57SatLucifer as software only capable of running on platorms which are designed to work for him.
11:42:06Lucifergoogle: Turing halting problem
11:42:07googlebotgoogling for Turing halting problem
11:43:03SatWell behaviourly it would work like life now. You aren't very likely to go to a christian church and want to stay there are you?
11:43:18SatBut there are a lot of christian minds that do.
11:43:59LuciferSo is the "mind signature" just a distillation of previous choices?
11:44:07Satif you went to the church out of curiosity and there was a full disclosure before you entered...
11:44:29Satstating that you could be forced to stay until the dominion master chose to release you...
11:44:34Satwould you eneter?
11:44:42MoEnzymeprobably not.
11:45:00MoEnzymebut some people might.
11:45:03LuciferWell I don't think I could ever be forced to stay
11:45:36SatI posit dominions where you can be forced to stay, once you agree to the rules
11:45:51Satbecause the dominion is in effect it's own ethical universe
11:46:00Satonce you enter you are bound by the rules
11:46:17LuciferBut you can always disconnect
11:46:18MoEnzymeWhat if the the cominion master is an Artificial Intelligence instead of a person in an embodied brain, would that make a difference?
11:46:29SatNot if you've shed your meat.
11:46:35MoEnzymeor at least commit suicide, Lucifer.
11:46:37SatThat's why I took it to that stage
11:47:00SatMo perhaps the dominion could stimpulate reincarnation into the dominion
11:47:18LuciferI think an AI would likely create a different sort of dominion, Mo
11:47:22SatYou would not be forced to play, but once you chose to, you'd be bound to.
11:47:59LuciferI think the worst they can do is to prevent you from re-entering if you disconnect before they say you can
11:48:19Sat* Sat explored dominion theory while intensely chemically altered last Summer, actually.
11:48:22MoEnzymePerhaps we could have special dominions for people found guilty of heinous crimes IRL. That could be involuntary.
11:48:56MoEnzymeLike OZ! :)
11:48:57SatWell leave the meat behind for a moment and assume a stage of being where you are no longer meat.
11:49:12SatIf you can unplug, the rules of the world override those of dominion
11:49:25Satand yes. there would be illegal dominions
11:49:33Satand they would be shut down, etc
11:49:53SatTo me the idea of Dominions only makes sense when one is no longer corporal.
11:50:06LuciferOK, in a world where a dominion can trap you, they can also trick you into entering
11:50:15Sat* Sat nods
11:50:22Luciferthat is a scary thought
11:50:26SatSatan want your soul, Lucifer.
11:50:46Luciferalrightly I have to scoot
11:50:51Satmaybe some intelligences would want to collect other intelligences
11:50:53Luciferexcellent chat!
11:50:58Luciferfeel free to continue without me
11:50:59MoEnzymeokay good chat Lucifer.
11:51:07Satto add processing power.

Lucifer is now known as LuciferAFK

11:51:49MoEnzyme* MoEnzyme is thinking even more strongly that this should be called "Virtual Dominion Theory".
11:52:06MoEnzymeEspecially with Sat's desire to leave his meat behind ;)
11:52:29SatIn the trip I had last Summer, I had this enlightenment: This is a dominion. The reality I am in is one I trapped myself within.
11:52:59SatSure you could frame it all tech like, but the tech is just a part of the dominion I am trapped within.
11:53:01MoEnzymeWell it's different in that once the trip was over, the dominion disolves.
11:53:05SatIt was a very strange trip.
11:53:32SatWell assume what you think is real is real... but it is a dominion.
11:53:38SatThat this is a sim.
11:53:40MoEnzymeIt still makes some sense even when not chemically altered. I haven't smoked anything today myself. :)
11:53:57SatThat the meat isn't actually meat.
11:54:05Satit is information.
11:54:29SatAre you are a thread of a much vaster intelligence that is engaged in this reality.
11:54:33MoEnzymeright, it's information, but it's still limited by the hardware to some extent.
11:54:43Satright. the rules of the dominion
11:55:26MoEnzymeSo even if you were tripping (on LSD psylosibin or whatever) it was still going on in the meat-space of your brain.
11:55:44SatSee each dominion would in effect be a complete reality with rules it is impossible to break.
11:56:15SatOr maybe one might be able to hack it a tad.
11:56:34MoEnzymeWell, we have just a few more minutes until the end of the hour. Any final thoughts?
11:56:41SatPerhaps the pyschdelic trip was a 'program' to hack the sim.
11:57:00MoEnzyme* MoEnzyme nods
11:57:27SatWell the main thought I have is that we tend to not extend the idea of dominion far enough to use it as a tool for philosophical exploration.
11:57:29Sat* Sat shrugs
11:57:54MoEnzymeWell, I think we made some progress at least from my point of view.
11:58:02Sat* Sat nods
11:58:16SatI think it'd be stimulating to continue next week
11:58:23MoEnzymeI didn't know WTF you and Lucifer were talking about an hour ago, and now I feel like I at least have a starting point.
11:58:29Sator outside official caht
11:58:54Satwell once we lay the foundation of dominion then we lay the foundatation of Q
11:58:55MoEnzymeMy clock shows two more minutes :)
11:59:00Satthere see how they interact
11:59:23MoEnzymeAh yes, that could be a good idea to incorporate into virtual dominion theory . . . Q
11:59:27Sat* Sat needs new porn
12:00:11MoEnzymePerhaps we can have a scheduled chat about Q within Virtual Dominion Theory.
12:00:26Sat* Sat nods
12:00:35Satwell I'm going to get back to organizing the lair.
12:00:44SatIt was excellent having a 'real' chat
12:00:51MoEnzymeIt was.
12:01:01Satscrew the politics
12:01:03Sat* Sat winks
12:01:27MoEnzyme* MoEnzyme , Sat and googlebot call Time for the end of the scheduled chat about "Virtual Dominion theory"
12:01:29googlebotI guess I kinda lost control, because in the middle of the play I ran up and lit the evil puppet villain on fire. No, I didn't. Just kidding. I just said that to help illustrate one of the human emotions, which is freaking out. Another emotion is greed, as when you kill someone for money, or something like that. Another emotion is generosity, as when you pay someone double what he paid for his stupid puppet.
12:02:06MoEnzymealrighty . . . I'll be around off and on for a while.
12:02:07Satfeel free to post on the BBS so the outer circles of virus can get infected.
12:02:14MoEnzyme* MoEnzyme nods
12:02:18MoEnzymeI shall :)
12:13:51Satoh one last Dominion thought. I do find resonance in the idea of a private dominion that only I can access, populated by my mind children.
12:14:13SatA place with apects of myself would appear as spearate entities....
12:14:37Sataand my reality was unsullied by the minds, tatses, morals, and conventions of others.
12:15:24SatA fully convincing reality where I could do whatever a I chose with complete privacy.
12:16:06SatNow that's a frikkin dominion!
12:22:50Sat"Well it's different in that once the trip was over, the dominion disolves." Well actually the trip was not entering the dominion, but remembering I was in one. When the trip ended the rememberance faded and I was fully trapped within the universe again.
12:22:53Sat* Sat grins
12:24:23Sat?me also proposes dominions were the contract for entry stipulates that while one is in the dominion one knows nothing else and does not know he is in a dominion.
13:21:12MoEnzymeI shall post the scheduled chat archive on the BBS within the next two hours. I'll edit for typos and mispellings only for the first posting, and offer Sat and Lucifer opportunities for other editing suggestions and afterthoughts at that point. In the next few days I'll post something more refined into the Doctrine Section.
13:21:53MoEnzymeDoes "Virtual Dominion Theory" sound like a good name for the subject line?
13:21:58MoEnzymeto Sat?
13:23:08SatI think the virtual is uneeded.
13:23:22Satbut it could be fun to abbreviate it as VD Theory
13:23:27Sat* Sat winks
13:23:59MoEnzymeSo that is acceptable then?
13:24:26SatI suppose. Lucifer seemed to like just using Dominion Theory.
13:24:34SatI think the virtual is redundant.
13:24:42Satbut hey. you're a free agent
13:24:59MoEnzymeOkay, then I'll feel free. :)
13:25:27MoEnzymeUnless you would rather do the posting of course.
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