I am a writer, currently researching a novel that explores the evolutionary potential of Memetic theory. What I would like to know is, how do you think a state that was able to accomplish Memetic Engineering would function? What would it be like to be an individual in this culture? If the whole world was capable of constructing sophisticated, personalised, self-engineered memeplexes to define their personalities, would we still be human?
I am a writer, currently researching a novel that explores the evolutionary potential of Memetic theory. What I would like to know is, how do you think a state that was able to accomplish Memetic Engineering would function? What would it be like to be an individual in this culture? If the whole world was capable of constructing sophisticated, personalised, self-engineered memeplexes to define their personalities, would we still be human?
Since the state is the origin of these hypothetical memes we can probably assume that everyone infected with the memes would act in the state's interest, sublimating their own self-interest. So I would expect the culture to resemble totalitarian states like Nazi Germany or Communist USSR, except without the hypocrisy (assuming the leaders of these historical regimes were really exploiting the system in their own self interest).
What it would be like to live in this culture would depend on how effective the memetic engineering is. Is everyone infected or is there an active resistance? Are the people in power infected or merely exploiting the masses?
« Last Edit: 2004-12-11 14:08:43 by David Lucifer »
David thanks for replying to my thread. I think a society that used memetic programming for political / social control would have to be immune to it themselves. the scifi / reality parallel here is mirrored in thedebate over whether Bush / Blair knew Saddam had WMD. They were immune to the fear-memes they spread if they knew they were not true (altrhough arguably they themselves are in the grip of a larger fear-meme).
I think th elite of this society would be self programmers, the grand-daughters and sons of the Virians perhaps. The masses would be cattle-like- easily imprinted. The only way I can envision a resistance would be if the herd were able to self-program, but presumably this would be prevented on a genetic level. Would the herd population be stable? More importantly, without freedom to choose and build their own memeplexes, would they be of any use?
I think the evolving consciousness of memes and people's ability to pick and choose between them could well striate society in this manner... Those who cannot see the superstructure see only the details, the progresssion of life from one thing to the next. The herd would maybe not be 'human' in the traditional sense, but they might not know it. Similarly they might not perceive their situation as slavery.
This idea seems to have an interesting relationship to the idea of the panopticon - a place (prison/society) where everyone is influenced and controlled by a meme. I suggest checking out the idea of the panopticon to assist in this debate.
The surveillance in the panopticon I am depicting in the novel is entirely internal- a panoptcon of the mind. As in Bentham's panopticon, the observer can 'see' inside the minds of every individual within a walled city. There is the conventional surveillance of CCTV, but this is a diversion- a higher-caste individual, in control of w2hich memes are fed to the population, can access, observe and even alter the memetic makeup of asny individual in the city.
The technology is far from perfect. Just as the tabloid headlines deliver their fear-memes in large, uncomplicated blocks, so the population is observed and then tampered with in an experimental fashion. The controller of the scheme wants to create (for instance) a loyal warrior tribe, but with the detritus of other (PRESENT DAY) memes in the populace, he ends up with proto-fascist ideologies and rioting.
In the second timeframe (fifty years after the first depicted society), the technology is perfected- anyone can access anyone else's subconscious / memeplex at any time, with technology inside their own bodies. Universal telepathy and race memory. This society is on an island the size of great Britain. The rest of the world is in the herd-state as described in my earlier post.... It is at this point that the difference in power / genetics becomes apparent, and they (inevitably) construct a global panopticon similar to the one that produced them, feeding their own cocktail of memes to the subdued population.
The third arc of the cycle ends with a single herd individual blanking the memetic / genetic template, and de-evolving mankind on a basic level, while retaining the 'no- barriers' consciousness described in the second arc. So I leave it with a very small global population, universally telepathic and aware, but physically almost powerless, and with no 'race memory' or genetic inheritance- essentially a new species.
I guess what I am most interested in is less the aspect of surveillance (the abused becomes the abuser, the observed the observer) and more the question of humanity. How human are my characters? Are there any humans in my story?
Thanks for making me check out the Panopticon again Wildcard, it seems I have some more layering to do in the structure of the story. I recommend 'Only Forward' by Michael Marshall Smith if you are interested- a nice tale about closed-gate societies that inspired me when I was younger.
thanks for the book recommendation - I'll check it out. If you've got time for a fun read check out "The Traveller" by John Twelve Hawks - he seems to be approaching the issue from the other direction.
Oh man, I am so scared to read his book because we seem to be on a very similar track. Plus the fact that he got a seven figure advance and I've got Jeff-all.... I'm going to have to read it at some point though!
Re:The International Meme Republic
« Reply #7 on: 2005-12-11 04:39:50 »
You all should read Isac Asimovs foundation series! It was voted best trilogy over the lord of the rings, so its not smalltime. The series is about a secret society that engineers memes (amoung other things). Asimov's premis is that one can use mematics to not only predict the future, but knowing the future be able to change it (but only at a certain critical population point that humanity has not quite reached yet). The most brilliant mathemeticians predict a dark age to come, and they also make arrangements "to have it end sooner" using their foundation. The foundation uses many means of controlling the galaxy, including religion, commerce, and psychology. One can draw parallels between the foundation at varying stages and the way in which certain countries controlled earth throughout our history.
Thinking back upon it, I never thought of it like this, but what if they used mematics to start the dark ages in the first place? What if our darkages were created by a single group of master mematic engineers, who only created it so that their descendants could rise to power at the head of the new society that emerges?
Re:The International Meme Republic
« Reply #8 on: 2006-04-16 20:54:32 »
A Virian (Headbands Jim IIRC) once described the JudeoChristianIslamic meme as "wickedly successful." Consider that the dark ages were consequent to Christianity's brutal elimination of memetic competition. I don't see your thought as a stretch.
Now consider the role of the US in the world today, the stunning effectiveness of the combination of churches and faux news in creating a memetic pandemic of terror, and the appended, rather sobering item. I call it sobering because there were good reasons to call the last time Christianity held so much relative power the "Dark Ages". It takes a scary degree of stupidity to give these legends credence, but it is even scarier to consider what degree of complete irrationality is required to imagine that anything about these bogey stories is ethically sustainable (Ultimately at the heart of the story of Jesus are the old, old stories of tribalism, bigotry and child sacrifice. Wonderful stories for the 21st Century?). Scariest of all is the thought that these dark times could be returned. The only glimmer of good news is that the younger you are, the less likely you are to give credence to this claptrap making (in Jefferson's words*) "one half of the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."**
**Not that I suggest bothering with any "Jesus" related claptrap. Ethics have improved enormously, even if, largely because of religion which finds change challenging, people haven't. 76% Say Jesus Rose from the Dead
As Christians around the globe prepare to celebrate Easter, 76% of American adults believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. A Rasmussen Reports survey found that just 14% disagree.
African-Americans are more likely to believe in the Resurrection of Christ more than other Americans. Adults under 30 are least likely to believe this basic premise of Christianity.
Eighty-two percent (82%) believe that the man known to history as Jesus Christ actually walked on the earth. Seventy-eight percent (78%) believe he was the "Son of God who came to earth to die for our sins."
Seventy percent (70%) of Americans claim a Christian religious affiliation (either Evangelical Christian, Protestant, or Catholic).
Forty-six percent (46%) say they attend Church or other religious services at least once a week.
The national telephone survey of 1,000 adults was conducted March 21 and March 22, 2005. The margin of sampling error is +/- 3 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence.
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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