Religious Division in US politics
« on: 2010-08-19 21:34:42 »
[Mo] I'm against that "ground zero Mosque" - in the I-don't-like-it sense, not in the they-can't-build-it sense. They can and I expect they will. I think Obama's "support" for it in the sense of religious liberty is exactly the right position to take. He can't stop it, so he may as well figure out a way to say its okay, instead of escalating the conflict. I still think nothing good will come from this mosque. It is in poor taste, and far from peaceful, I think religion is all about dividing people and ultimately provoking violence. I think any church, synagogue, or mosque anywhere near ground zero is offensive and in bad taste. -Mo
The survey, conducted by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center and its affiliated Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, is based on interviews conducted before the controversy over whether Muslims should be permitted to construct a mosque near the World Trade Center site. Obama has said he believes Muslims have the right to build an Islamic center there, though he's also said he won't take a position on whether they should actually build it.
[Mo] I think belief that Obama is a Muslim is just camouflage for racism. They probably know better, but it wouldn't be okay to just simply say a black man shouldn't be telling white folk what to do. That would be so 1960's, but its acceptable to say that he's not really a citizen, question his birth certificate, or his Christianity, etc. The result is the same. He's "not one of us".
I don't care what religion the president is or isn't as long as he/she respects the 1st Ammendment, separation of church and state, and our tradition of secular government. I think its pretty cool that Obama includes "people of no faith", into his rhetoric. On the other hand I think it sucks that he's keeping the office of faith based initiatives from the last Bush administration. -Mo
Re:Religious Division in US politics
« Reply #1 on: 2010-08-20 11:08:36 »
Some snippets from FB Conversations I've had over this topic recently:
[Mo]@Amy, Right. It sucks, but what can you really do about it? Nothing. Some part of the serenity prayer comes to mind ". . . the serenity to accept the things I cannot change . . ." Some liberal commentators have been pointing out how many other churches, mosques, and synagogues are already in the neighborhood even prior to 9/11. That argument isn't winning me over. I think if they had an ounce of civility, they should all question their continued presence within a tragedy caused by religious thinking and behavior. Of course none of them are going to do that, but I think it at least provides some perspective on the mosque builders. I suppose they have the right to wallow in the political mud fight like all other US theocratic pigs, so why should we deny them the pleasure of being ugly Americans too? Its really no more offensive than the crap we routinely tolerate from the religious right.
[Mo]@Ronda and @Linda - as you both follow Mark's page, I disagreed with Fareed Zakaria on this subject (a man I usually agree with otherwise). He seems to imagine that it would be a place like this new mosque where a reform movement in Islam would most likely begin. I disagree and bet if there will be any reform movement in Islam it would more likely come from that ever growing list of prominent Muslims who publicly oppose building the mosque. They at least seem to have some sense of empathy, as well as common sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordoba_house#Muslims Of course I'm an Infidel, so what do I know about it? But that would be my bet against Fareed Zakaria on this one - I don't think he's a Muslim either, so we're equals on the topic . . . sort of
Re:Religious Division in US politics
« Reply #2 on: 2010-08-20 12:11:30 »
Linda Re: "If there is any religion at all in this country - and I'm with you on your feelings about that, Harvey - then all should have equal rights to presence near any sites of national meaning." Harvey - amen Linda re: "Years from now this mosque probably will be seen as a good thing, in that context. And if there are strip clubs in the neighborhood, why fuss about a mosque." Harvey - In this case, I'm cheering for the strip clubs.
@Linda and Harvey: If I had anything to invest, I'd consider opening a strip club across the street from the ground zero mosque and call it "Blasphemy". Maybe we'd get some crossover clients? Go for some exercise at the "family center" and then a little adult entertainment afterwards for reward. You could even leave your car parked at the Muslim center and walk.
Re:Religious Division in US politics
« Reply #3 on: 2010-08-21 01:18:30 »
On a FaceBook thread, somebody expressed "embarrassment" that there was even a debate about the Mosque, it needs to be built ASAP, that we should all support the mosque builders and anybody not with the program was a fringe nut. This was my response:
[Frank] Think is it hard to generalize about something as broad and diverse as America. I'm very much in favor of building that Mosque or Islamic center, and frankly embarrassed that there's a debate about it. And hope it happens ASAP, because the world is watching as we deliberate and send signals that here freedom and democracy are merely empty terms. And at once hopeful that those who stand against it are in the fringe and thankful for our leaders who have the wisdom to say it is the right thing to do without equivocation.
[Mo] Frank, I don't think you have to worry about it not getting built. They've met every legal requirement so everyone else is on their schedule now for this mosque building issue. I'm sure we will hear more media hand wringing, perhaps some political grandstanding about it in the meantime but its already a done deal. Sane people need to get their heads around that, and help out their crazy neighbors on that finality issue.
Far from embarrassing, democracy and free speech is all about debates, conversation, discussing differences of opinion. I think a lot more people than you imagine oppose the mosque on perfectly sane grounds. We're just not going to do anything to actually stop it from happening. Its a freedom thing. As far as he goes, Obama speaks for me. That fact still doesn't excuse us from actually having the conversation on its merits. Religion doesn't get a free pass from criticism in the US. May it always be so. Amen.
ps. update [Frank] Forgive me but I did not mean I am ashamed of the debate, which as you suggest is absolutely indispensable. Rather, I am ashamed by the ugly tone of the opposition's rhetoric and the notion that that message is the now dominant point being transmitted from our shores. Perhaps I'm wrong, but unfortunately the provocatively reactionary sentiments tend to rise to the top of any debate, at least before the dust settles....
[Mo]@Fank. True. Strong or radical opinions are easier to remember. Reason is often boring by comparison and requires effort but it endures long after the dust settles. -Mo
<snip> ps. update [Frank] Forgive me but I did not mean I am ashamed of the debate, which as you suggest is absolutely indispensable. Rather, I am ashamed by the ugly tone of the opposition's rhetoric and the notion that that message is the now dominant point being transmitted from our shores. Perhaps I'm wrong, but unfortunately the provocatively reactionary sentiments tend to rise to the top of any debate, at least before the dust settles....
[Mo]@Fank. True. Strong or radical opinions are easier to remember. Reason is often boring by comparison and requires effort but it endures long after the dust settles. -Mo
I am assuming that this is all about discrediting Obama and is why the right (aka Fox News) is pushing this so hard. The other problem to me seems to be that the Muslim community isn't able to get the word out that they are not the terrorist and that they as Americans don't want their home terrorized either.
This for me goes all the way back to a simplistic formula, that heralds all the way back to the beginning of man:
Religion = War = Segregation of Humanity
As my father repeats time and time again: "As long as people are raised to need power over others, we will have; Religion, Nationalism and Hatred. You can see it beginning in any Kindergarten classroom"
The larger question is whether the great American experiment can embrace an inclusive society that can get on with; educating, housing, clothing and feeding our population through the tough times to come and let go of these right wing 'Strawmen' and demonstrate life through knowledge and experiment, trumps Dogma and Belief.
To that end Obama is at least not feeding the 'Republican Bogeymen'.
Cheers
Fritz
PS: Yet in Canada as well the beat goes on ... sigh
Man held in terror probe rearrested Detained on charges unrelated to terror
Re:Religious Division in US politics
« Reply #5 on: 2010-09-04 09:53:48 »
Fritz,
I don't think the mosque controversy really has much to do with efforts discredit Obama. I don't doubt that some extreme right political operatives may imagine such a connection and may seek to agitate along such perceptual connection, but I think there would be the same "non-troversy" about the "Ground Zero Mosque" even if John McCain were now POTUS. I personally do not think it is constructive to attempt to actually stop the mosque builders from their plans, although as an infidel (so inspired by 9/11 and the Iraq war) I'm quick to point out that people bothered by such activity may have sane reasons for their offense and displeasure.
Lately I've picked up on a much clearer, completely constitutional, and hence more American response to the Muslim triumphalism displayed by the mosque builders.
"JAKARTA, Indonesia — Thousands of Indonesian Muslims rallied outside the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta on Saturday to denounce an American church's plan to mark the anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks by burning copies of the Quran. The Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Florida, said it will burn the Islamic holy book Wednesday, the ninth anniversary of the terror attacks. Local officials have denied a permit for the bonfire on the church's grounds, but the center — which made headlines last year by distributing T-shirts that said "Islam is of the Devil" — insists it will go ahead with the plan."
[Mo] I realize that some may think me unduly Satanic in advocating for Christians to so clearly and offensively stick it in the eye of their Muslim neighbors this way, but in a secular democracy this is a completely constitutional means of expressing opposition unlike any potentially illegal/unconstitutional/violent clashes that opposing the actual construction of a mosque would invite. Given only the choice between symbolic and real confrontation, I approve the symbolic path. Any Muslims who can't appreciate the difference have simply proven their inability to coexist in a secular context, and so I have zero sympathy for their offense. Burning the Quran is not comparable to blocking the building of a Mosque or the wanton murder of thousands of innocents. I don't mind their expressing their anger, but if they can't appreciate these differences they have effectively forfeited all reasonable/intellectual legitimacy within secular communities - as seems sadly common if not even dominant within Dar al Islam, Indonesia having the largest and supposedly moderate Muslim community in the world.
<snip> ps. update [Frank] Forgive me but I did not mean I am ashamed of the debate, which as you suggest is absolutely indispensable. Rather, I am ashamed by the ugly tone of the opposition's rhetoric and the notion that that message is the now dominant point being transmitted from our shores. Perhaps I'm wrong, but unfortunately the provocatively reactionary sentiments tend to rise to the top of any debate, at least before the dust settles....
[Mo]@Fank. True. Strong or radical opinions are easier to remember. Reason is often boring by comparison and requires effort but it endures long after the dust settles. -Mo
I am assuming that this is all about discrediting Obama and is why the right (aka Fox News) is pushing this so hard. The other problem to me seems to be that the Muslim community isn't able to get the word out that they are not the terrorist and that they as Americans don't want their home terrorized either.
This for me goes all the way back to a simplistic formula, that heralds all the way back to the beginning of man:
Religion = War = Segregation of Humanity
As my father repeats time and time again: "As long as people are raised to need power over others, we will have; Religion, Nationalism and Hatred. You can see it beginning in any Kindergarten classroom"
The larger question is whether the great American experiment can embrace an inclusive society that can get on with; educating, housing, clothing and feeding our population through the tough times to come and let go of these right wing 'Strawmen' and demonstrate life through knowledge and experiment, trumps Dogma and Belief.
To that end Obama is at least not feeding the 'Republican Bogeymen'.
Cheers
Fritz
PS: Yet in Canada as well the beat goes on ... sigh
Man held in terror probe rearrested Detained on charges unrelated to terror
Re:Religious Division in US politics
« Reply #6 on: 2010-09-04 11:46:43 »
Quote:
Lately I've picked up on a much clearer, completely constitutional, and hence more American response to the Muslim triumphalism displayed by the mosque builders.
I am not able to see this from the media and Jon Stewart; I get Redneck Tea party backlash. I need more examples !
Lately I've picked up on a much clearer, completely constitutional, and hence more American response to the Muslim triumphalism displayed by the mosque builders.
I am not able to see this from the media and Jon Stewart; I get Redneck Tea party backlash. I need more examples !
This video really tosses all the issues into the air ..... to what end I'm not sure .... but the back of your neck will prickle.
Sigh
Fritz
Fritz,
Yeah, I'm not against Redneck Tea Partier fuckwits burning the Quran and think its a better response than seeking political actions to block the building of the ground zero mosque (or any other religious edifice). I'm not exactly taking the side of civilized debate here since there appears to be no such side on this discussion, but given this choice of actions - murdering thousands of innocents, blocking the construction of a mosque, or burning the Quran, I'm okay with some rednecks burning the Quran - (or any other book they don't like but happen to own). Not that any of them are actions leading to civilized discourse, but anyone refusing to note the importance of such distinctions is unprepared for any civilized discussions in the first place.
And yeah, no sense to be had from that video re: Irish Muslims, given all the interruptions between too many guests trying to censor each other in the given time frame for discussion. Truly pointless. Makes me want to burn all their favorite books, even
Author
Logged
