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   Author  Topic: Plug the hole, Daddy.  (Read 10436 times)
MoEnzyme
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Plug the hole, Daddy.
« on: 2010-05-31 19:13:32 »
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Now that the "topkill" has failed, and its becoming obvious how BP is legally incompetant to make accurate assessments of the leak rates, I think its time for a little imminent domain. Yes it will be a bit more expensive, but once everyone has been over compensated, Obama will have all the equipment and expertise of whatever resources the oil company has already put towards this, added to all government resources. Obama should market this something like putting a man on the moon. Certainly the technical difficulties warrant that kind of cheer leading, I just hope Daddy is up to that kinda energy. . . . we'll soon see I suppose.
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Re:Plug the hole, Daddy.
« Reply #1 on: 2010-06-01 00:34:04 »
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Quote:
[MO]Certainly the technical difficulties warrant that kind of cheer leading, I just hope Daddy is up to that kinda energy. . . . we'll soon see I suppose.

[Fritz]So where is Red Adair or some brave Texan !

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Re:Plug the hole, Daddy.
« Reply #2 on: 2010-06-01 05:43:02 »
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I wonder if putting the company into receivership is really necessary to accomplish the task. It seems a bit of an over-the-top solution - not all things BP are related to this oil leak. I was rather thinking there ought to be some less taking that would allow BP to carry on with the rest of their non-related projects. However, I think it IS time for these kinds of solutions.

http://www.alternet.org/story/147055/5_reasons_obama_must_take_over_bp?page=entire

5 Reasons Obama Must Take Over BP

BP continues to be responsible primarily to its shareholders, not to the American public. It's time for Obama to put them under temporary receivership.

By Robert Reich - May 31, 2010
| It's time for the federal government to put BP under temporary receivership, which gives the government authority to take over BP's operations in the Gulf of Mexico until the gusher is stopped. This is the only way the public will know what's going on, be confident enough resources are being put to stopping the gusher, ensure BP's strategy is correct, know the government has enough clout to force BP to use a different one if necessary, and be sure the president is ultimately in charge.

If the government can take over giant global insurer AIG and the auto giant General Motors and replace their CEOs, in order to keep them financially solvent, it should be able to put BP's north American operations into temporary receivership in order to stop one of the worst environmental disasters in U.S. history.

The Obama administration keeps saying BP is in charge because BP has the equipment and expertise necessary to do what's necessary. But under temporary receivership, BP would continue to have the equipment and expertise. The only difference: the firm would unambiguously be working in the public's interest. As it is now, BP continues to be responsible primarily to its shareholders, not to the American public. As a result, the public continues to worry that a private for-profit corporation is responsible for stopping a public tragedy.

Five reasons for taking such action:

1. We are not getting the truth from BP. BP has continuously and dramatically understated size of gusher. In the last few days, BP chief Tony Hayward has tried to refute reports from scientists that vast amounts of oil from the spill are spreading underwater. Hayward says BP's sampling shows "no evidence" oil is massing and spreading underwater across the Gulf. Yet scientists from the University of South Florida, University of Georgia, University of Southern Mississippi and other institutions say they've detected vast amounts of underwater oil, including an area roughly 50 miles from the spill site and as deep as 400 feet. Government must be clearly in charge of getting all the facts, not waiting for what BP decides to disclose and when.

2. We have no way to be sure BP is devoting enough resources to stopping the gusher. BP is now saying it has no immediate way to stop up the well until August, when a new "relief" well will reach the gushing well bore, enabling its engineers to install cement plugs. August? If government were in direct control of BP's north American assets, it would be able to devote whatever of those assets are necessary to stopping up the well right away.

3. BP's new strategy for stopping the gusher is highly risky. It wants to sever the leaking pipe cleanly from atop the failed blowout preventer, and then install a new cap so the escaping oil can be pumped up to a ship on the surface. But scientists say that could result in an even bigger volume of oil -- as much as 20 percent more -- gushing from the well. At least under government receivership, public officials would be directly accountable for weighing the advantages and disadvantages of such a strategy. As of now, company officials are doing the weighing. Which brings us to the fourth argument for temporary receivership.

4. Right now, the U.S. government has no authority to force BP to adopt a different strategy. Saturday, Energy Secretary Steven Chu and his team of scientists essentially halted BP's attempt to cap the spewing well with a process known as "top kill," which injected drilling mud and other materials to try to counter the upward pressure of the oil. Apparently the Administration team was worried that the technique would worsen the leak. But under what authority did the Administration act? It has none. Asked Sunday whether U.S. officials told BP to stop the top-kill attempt, Carol Browner, the White House environmental advisor, said, "We told them of our very, very grave concerns" about the danger. Expressing grave concerns is not enough. The President needs legal authority to order BP to protect the United States.

5. The President is not legally in charge. As long as BP is not under the direct control of the government he has no direct line of authority, and responsibility is totally confused. For example, listen for the "we" and "they" pronouns that were used by Carol Browner in response to a question on NBC's "Meet the Press" Sunday (emphasis added): "We're now going to move into a situation where they're going to attempt to control the oil that's coming out, move it to a vessel, take it onshore ....We always knew that the relief well was the permanent way to close this .... Now we move to the third option, which is to contain it. If [the new cap on the relief well is] a snug fit, then there could be very, very little oil. If they're not able to get as snug a fit, then there could be more. We're going to hope for the best and prepare for the worst." When you get pronoun confusion like this, you can bet on confusion -- both inside the Administration and among the public. There is no good reason why "they" are in charge of an operation of which "we" are hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.

The president should temporarily take over BP's Gulf operations. We have a national emergency on our hands. No president would allow a nuclear reactor owned by a private for-profit company to melt down in the United States while remaining under the direct control of that company. The meltdown in the Gulf is the environmental equivalent.

Robert B. Reich has served in three national administrations, most recently as secretary of labor under President Bill Clinton. He also served on President Obama's transition advisory board. His latest book is Supercapitalism.
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Re:Plug the hole, Daddy.
« Reply #3 on: 2010-06-01 14:11:00 »
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From a facebook discussion I'm having on the topic of the ^previous^article^. Alan, a friend of mine suggested takeover of BP would slow things down, to which I responded:

@Alan: BP has some incentive to lie about the size of the leak, because that directly determines the quantity of their regulatory fine. Not that its right to lie, but one can understand the way it happens in this case. Perhaps one step in the right direction would be to come to some preliminary fine settlement with BP on that issue to remove that disincentive to truth.

In any case this isn't ending before August, so cleaning up the intelligence is more important and under our control. On this timeline, hole pluggers and oil cleaners need to be sharing the best information. That alone stands as a good reason for government takeover and why it can't be slower than current solutions.

Interestingly Alan influences me more towards complete receivership as the government answer if take over is necessary. I'm sure whatever takeover answer will have BP input since they are going to get their company and/or whatever equipment and personnel back at the end of the day.
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Re:Plug the hole, Daddy.
« Reply #4 on: 2010-06-02 19:31:19 »
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[Mo] Well, BP continues with their latest attempts and no signs of Obama take-over. August huh? Something tells me its going to be much later than that. Anyway it doesn't look likely that takeover will happen before then, anyway. And I'm not hearing any talk about any regulatory fine settlement, so I'm sure we'll be even more saturated in bullshit lies by then. Garrison Keillor does a good job articulating our feelings of helplessness.

Opinions
Fort Worth Star Telegram


A great nation immobilized
Posted Tuesday, Jun. 01, 2010
By GARRISON KEILLOR


I flew home from Washington on Monday night, looking at live pictures on the BP website taken by an underwater robot of the greasy waters of the Gulf, and how's that for a metaphor of our times? Aboard a Delta Airbus at 37,000 feet maneuvering around giant thunderheads, connected to the Internet via satellite, looking at dark gloop a mile below the sea, contemplating the death of a beautiful body of water, unable to think of a single sensible thing to do or say about this that would make a milligram of difference, and yet here I sit with a clear view of the situation, like a passenger in a car skidding slowly into the median.

Years ago, in some crowded gymnasium, a commencement speaker told us that we should pursue our education because knowledge leads to power to effect change, but I don't see it in this case. I'm flying in a jet airliner consuming oil as I observe a disaster caused by the demand for oil -- mine, yours, theirs. And yes, there was gross corporate irresponsibility, zero government regulation, rank corruption in the Minerals Management Service, but growing demand is what's pushing us toward the next disaster and the next and the next.

We are self-centered, shortsighted people, intent on comfort, averse to sacrifice. We know this. Knowing it does not empower us to change. The new guy at MMS will attempt to exercise oversight, Congress will hold more hearings, but in reality we have given over the Gulf to British Petroleum. Only the oilmen can plug the hole. The value of moral harrumphing is rather minimal, and though, as an ex-fundamentalist, I can sermonize with the best of them, I will spare you my tiny outburst of dudgeon.

We are a great nation immobilized at the moment by navel-gazers and poseurs and flackmeisters, and when you visit Washington, you see this clearly. Here are all the little marble palaces of the AFL-CIO and NEA and NRA and AARP and AMA and PhRMA and the trial lawyers and Realtors and plumbers and the chemical industry and the nursing home operators -- everybody but bank robbers and newspaper columnists has a mouthpiece in Washington -- and it's a lot of high-priced schmoozing and yipping and yakking by thousands of overeducated schtoonks in nicely pressed shirts pumping out hogwash and hokum that is easily ignored by the bureaucrats and elected officials who do the actual work.

Meanwhile, oil pours out of the pipe in the sea floor, and the plane descends over the St. Croix and Mississippi and Minnesota rivers, these beautiful waterways that I have canoed and swum in since I was a boy. Back when the Republican Party included some tweedy conservationists who liked tramping in the woods and it was possible to accomplish things now and then in Washington, Congress passed legislation that cleaned up those rivers to some extent, as anyone who lives around here knows. (Luckily for us, there are no oil deposits under them.) If you want to run your 80-foot yacht up the St. Croix, you can do that until you come to a sandbar, but you can't flush your poop overboard. Big government, taking the place of your mama, will slap you if you do.

If man is pushing the planet toward extinction, then we should stop doing what we're doing, and if we cannot stop ourselves or tolerate government making us stop or slow down, then I suppose we should enjoy the ride. The condemned man ate a hearty breakfast. I can't think of anything better to do right now than to sit in my back yard and look at the Mississippi and listen to Bach cello suites and enjoy a dish of ice cream with fresh raspberries. As the Gulf turns dark and the polar icecap melts, I intend to listen to Bach more and listen to the news less.

Garrison Keillor's show A Prairie Home Companion can be heard at 5 p.m. Saturdays and 10 a.m. Sundays on public radio station KERA/90.1 FM.
http://www.kera.org

http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/06/01/2231712/a-great-nation-immobilized.html
« Last Edit: 2010-06-02 19:40:11 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Plug the hole, Daddy.
« Reply #5 on: 2010-06-02 19:57:35 »
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Robert Reich's commentary above about putting BP into receivership has gone radio/audio. You can listen to it here:
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/06/02/pm-bp-temporary-receivership-reich-commentary/
Political pressure is mounting on the Obama administration over the BP oil leak. Attorney General Eric Holder has announced a criminal investigation. But commentator Robert Reich says the White House needs to go even further.
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Re:Plug the hole, Daddy.
« Reply #6 on: 2010-06-02 20:48:25 »
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[Mo] Now Eric Holder is looking into criminal prosecution for BP, I wonder if that is going to encourage them to become more or less dishonest than they already are? Hard to say with that crew. Perhaps we find out how much porn they were watching at work when all hell broke loose. Could be fun in a scary sort of way.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obama-oil-20100603,0,5382051.story

http://www.takepart.com/news/2010/06/02/attorney-general-holder-announces-criminal-investigation-into-spill

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Re:Plug the hole, Daddy.
« Reply #7 on: 2010-06-19 06:18:00 »
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A friend of mine made this recent suggestion on Facebook, that BP really isn't interested in plugging the hole as much they are in not losing their well. This is his solution. Will it work? I thought I would share it with CoV to see if anyone had thoughts about it.

-Mo

My suggestion to BP
June 18, 2010 at 10:22pm


I got really pissed when I finally realized that we're in the mess we're in because these BP assholes are apparently more interested in trying to salvage this gushing gold mine than plugging it. The solution could have been executed within two weeks of the spill if they'd wanted to. One of the falsehoods being spewed, in my view, is that there is a danger of increasing the reservoir pressure to some cataclysmic level. Bullshit! The oil coming out now is free-flowing, and I am guessing at least 1,000 feet below the ocean floor and under several layers of extremely dense rock formations.

And I would suggest that every drilling rig working in U.S. waters should be required to have a device of this type (with backup) on board before they are allowed to continue drilling. The charges would need to be customized to account for casing dimensions, rock type, etc, but there aren't that many variables that this couldn't be done relatively inexpensively. At the first sign of impending disaster, blow the damn thing and abandon it - cost of doing business...

Describe the proposed solution and its practical potential for wide scale application. Focus content on the underlying technology that supports the solution and describe how the solution will address a key area of the ongoing response. Focus content on the operational and logistical requirements that are needed to obtain and deploy this particular solution including quantity, availability and scalability of the solution. Content should include any previous testing and evaluation data that validates success of this technical approach on an applicable scale, if available.

Brief Description of Technology (200 words or less) This is a solution for the: Source
Deliver a small diameter high-incendiary pressure regulated directional shape charge into the well bore (think javelin) to allow oil flow to continue relatively unabated. Charge detonation should exert heat and pressure outward and upward to minimize increased downhole pressure. Heat and pressure must be sufficient to fracture and melt casing and surrounding rock into a solid plug. If possible, this might be done in sequence starting lower and working up the well bore. Javelin needs to contain sufficient fusible material that in conjunction with molten well casing and rock will generate enough mass to seal the bore against gas and oil.

Materials Required (50 words or less)
You're the scientists - you figure it out. Will cost less than $10mil, guaranteed.

Equipment Required (50 words or less)
javelin device, robotic emplacement device, detonator, firing system, cajones

Expertise Required – including description and numbers (100 words or less)
Sub-sea demolitions experts, materials scientists and engineers, production engineers to calculate acceptable pressures and temperatures.

(c) Mark Greene 2010

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/note.php?note_id=460587317208&id=560663726
« Last Edit: 2010-06-19 06:31:36 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Plug the hole, Daddy.
« Reply #8 on: 2010-06-19 22:16:06 »
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[Blunderov] I'm skeptical (so what else is new - heh). It seems likely to me that BP would like nothing better than for this horrendous PR nightmare to go away as fast as possible. Their share prices are suffering badly. And then there's mounting bill for damages and clean up expenses. I hear, admittedly the technicalities are beyond my grasp, that the geology of the problem is such that the leak actually CANNOT be plugged. Something to do with the undersea surface of the area dictates (according to some opinions) that if they plug the leak it will simply burst out some where even less amenable to the possibility of control. Apparently the undersea surface there is very sandy and loose for quite some way down.

I'm as deeply suspicious of capitalist amorality as the next man (well as some men anyway) but it seems possible that BP could be actually bankrupted if this goes on much longer. I doubt they're trying to save their well. I think they would prefer to save their asses. If they can...
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Re:Plug the hole, Daddy.
« Reply #9 on: 2010-06-19 22:27:40 »
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Thanks Blunderov. I'll factor you in on this. So you really don't think that any sort of specially shape-charged explosive will do the trick? Well I do know that some of these Iran-Iraqi resistence groups have come up with all sort of cheap yet precise technological innovation on IED's. Surely there's some way we can translate that tenchnology into a small field solution? While explosions can seem a bit out of control up here, perhaps a mile deep they are a bit more controlled by specific environmental pressures.

Just curious,

-Mo
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Re:Plug the hole, Daddy.
« Reply #10 on: 2010-06-20 06:40:15 »
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[Blunderov] A promising suggestion found on facebook: why not plug the fountainhead with the collected works of Ayn Rand? The massive weight of her collected tomes is estimated by some literary critics to be well capable of compressing the sea floor right down to bedrock. looks like win/win to me...

"A modest proposal for finally putting to good use the writings of woman who has aptly been described as "Nietzsche for stupid people."

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Plugging-the-Gulf-oil-leak-with-the-works-of-Ayn-Rand/125031037519289?filter=1

Mad Frank:"Rand's books continue to be widely sold and read, with 25 million copies sold as of 2007, and 800,000 more being sold each year. You'll have plenty of books to stuff the hole with. If you can get them away from he fans. Good Luck!"

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Re:Plug the hole, Daddy.
« Reply #11 on: 2010-06-20 16:52:17 »
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Well here is a dooms day view of the BP disaster for Father's Day, linked from Lord Stirling's site.

Cheers

Fritz



Source: Helium
Author: Terrence Aym
Date: June 19th 2010

Disturbing evidence is mounting that something frightening is happening deep under the waters of the Gulf of Mexico—something far worse than the BP oil gusher.

Warnings were raised as long as a year before the Deepwater Horizon disaster that the area of seabed chosen by the BP geologists might be unstable, or worse, inherently dangerous.

What makes the location that Transocean chose potentially far riskier than other potential oil deposits located at other regions of the Gulf? It can be summed up with two words: methane gas.


The same methane that makes coal mining operations hazardous and leads to horrendous mining accidents deep under the earth also can present a high level of danger to certain oil exploration ventures.

Location of Deepwater Horizon oil rig was criticized

More than 12 months ago some geologists rang the warning bell that the Deepwater Horizon exploratory rig might have been erected directly over a huge underground reservoir of methane.

Documents from several years ago indicate that the subterranean geologic formation may contain the presence of a huge methane deposit.

None other than the engineer who helped lead the team to snuff the Gulf oil fires set by Saddam Hussein to slow the advance of American troops has stated that a huge underground lake of methane gas—compressed by a pressure of 100,000 pounds per square inch (psi)—could be released by BP's drilling effort to obtain the oil deposit.

Current engineering technology cannot contain gas that is pressurized to 100,000 psi.

By some geologists' estimates the methane could be a massive 15 to 20 mile toxic and explosive bubble trapped for eons under the Gulf sea floor. In their opinion, the explosive destruction of the Deepwater Horizon wellhead was an accident just waiting to happen.

Yet the disaster that followed the loss of the rig pales by comparison to the apocalyptic disaster that may come.

A cascading catastrophe

According to worried geologists, the first signs that the methane may burst its way through the bottom of the ocean would be fissures or cracks appearing on the ocean floor near the damaged well head.

Evidence of fissures opening up on the seabed have been captured by the robotic submersibles working to repair and contain the ruptured well. Smaller, independent plumes have also appeared outside the nearby radius of the bore hole itself.

According to some geological experts, BP's operations set into motion a series of events that may be irreversible. Step-by-step the drilling eam committed one error after another.

Congressmen Henry Waxman, D-CA, and Bart Stupak, D-MI, in a letter sent to BP CEO Tony Hayward, identified 5 missteps made by BP during the period culminating with the explosion.

Waxman, chair of the Congressional energy panel and Stupak, the head of the subcommittee on oversight and investigations, said, "The common feature of these five decisions is that they posed a trade-off between cost and well safety."

The two Representatives also stated in the 14-page letter to Hayward that "Time after time, it appears that BP made decisions that increased the risk of a blowout to save the company time or expense."

Called by some insiders investigating the ongoing disaster a "perfect storm of catastrophe," the wellhead blew on the sea floor catapulting a stream of mud, oil and gas upwards at the speed of sound.

In describing the events—that transpired in a matter of seconds—they note that immediately following the rupture the borehole pipe's casing blew away exposing a straight line 8 miles deep for the pressurized gas to escape. The result was cavitation, an irregular pressure variance sometimes experience by deep diving vessels such as nuclear submarines. This cavitation created a supersonic bubble of explosive methane gas that resulted in a supersonic explosion killing 11 men and completely annihilating the drilling platform.

Death from the depths

With the emerging evidence of fissures, the quiet fear now is the methane bubble rupturing the seabed and exploding into the Gulf waters. If the bubble escapes, every ship, drilling rig and structure within the region of the bubble will instantaneously sink. All the workers, engineers, Coast Guard personnel and marine biologists measuring the oil plumes' advance will instantly perish.

As horrible as that is, what would follow is an event so potentially horrific that it equals in its fury the Indonesian tsunami that killed more than 600,000, or the destruction of Pompeii by Mt. Vesuvius.

The ultimate Gulf disaster, however, would make even those historical horrors pale by comparison. If the huge methane bubble breaches the seabed, it will erupt with an explosive fury similar to that experienced during the eruption of Mt. Saint Helens in the Pacific Northwest. A gas gusher will surge upwards through miles of ancient sedimentary rock—layer after layer—past the oil reservoir. It will explode upwards propelled by 50 tons psi, burst through the cracks and fissures ofthe compromised sea floor, and rupture miles of ocean bottom with one titanic explosion.

The burgeoning methane gas cloud will surface, killing everything it touches, and set off a supersonic tsunami with the wave traveling somewhere between 400 to 600 miles per hour.

While the entire Gulf coastline is vulnerable, the state most exposed to the fury of a supersonic wave towering 150 to 200 feet or more is Florida. The Sunshine State only averages about 100 feet above sea level with much of the coastline and lowlands and swamps near zero elevation.

A supersonic tsunami would literally sweep away everything from Miami to the panhandle in a matter of minutes. Loss of human life would be virtually instantaneous and measured in the millions. Of course the states of Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and  southern region of Georgia—a state with no Gulf coastline—would also experience tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of casualties.

Loss of property is virtually incalculable and the days of the US position as the world's superpower would be literally gone in a flash...of detonating methane.

Links

Evidence that methane gas catastrophe may be building

Video #1:

Video #2:
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Re:Plug the hole, Daddy.
« Reply #12 on: 2010-06-20 19:57:11 »
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Quote from: Blunderov on 2010-06-20 06:40:15   
[Blunderov] A promising suggestion found on facebook: why not plug the fountainhead with the collected works of Ayn Rand? The massive weight of her collected tomes is estimated by some literary critics to be well capable of compressing the sea floor right down to bedrock. looks like win/win to me...

"A modest proposal for finally putting to good use the writings of woman who has aptly been described as "Nietzsche for stupid people." <snip>


Did Greenspan channel or betray Ayn Rand?
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/greenspan-and-ayn-rand-disciple-or-traitor-2010-06-19?reflink=MW_news_stmp


So interestingly enough Blonderov you are in agreement with Glen Beck .
I am impressed

I still picture myself as Howard Roark in 'Fountainhead' standing on the hill top over looking the world I'm going to conquer, with my red hair wildly blowing in the breeze.  Ah to be 25 again .... with hair ... giggle.

Cheers

Fritz



Source: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,594722,00.html
<snip>
Did you know that Ayn Rand, author of "Atlas Shruugged," had a hard time getting a publisher in America for her book "The Anthem"? One publisher rejected it on the grounds that the author does not understand socialism, which is particularly funny because she was born in St. Petersburg. She was 12 years old the revolution of 1917 broke out. She was there when it happened and violence took place right in front of her. She lived there until she was in her 20s. She saw the brutality of communism.

You'd think the media would love a success story like this, but Ayn Rand was soundly mocked in the media. Even after achieving success, she was still routinely bashed by critics. Here's what the media elite thought of "Atlas Shrugged":

• "Not in any literary sense a serious novel" — The New York Times

• "Somebody has called it: 'Excruciatingly awful.' I find it a remarkably silly book. It is certainly a bumptious one. Its story is preposterous." — Whittaker Chambers

• "As an instrument of propaganda, this book is a moderate success; as a work of art, it is a noble failure" — Portsmouth Star

• "1,168 Pages of Soap Opera Philosophy and Propaganda" — The Savannah News

Just how strange were the concepts in it? Let's see: The book focuses on how politicians respond to crises — many times created by themselves — by creating new government programs, laws and regulations. She wrote in "The Voice of Reason": "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."

Is that not happening today? How many times have you heard "capitalism has failed"?

She also showed how politicians would dress their redistributive legislation in happy sounding names. Sound familiar? Tell me which ones are from the book and which one is real:

• "Anti-greed Act"

• "Emergency Economic Stabilization Act"

• "Equalization of Opportunity Act"

Clearly, Ayn Rand had no idea what she was talking about.

— Watch "Glenn Beck" weekdays at 5 p.m. ET on Fox News Channel
« Last Edit: 2010-06-20 20:04:52 by Fritz » Report to moderator   Logged

Where there is the necessary technical skill to move mountains, there is no need for the faith that moves mountains -anon-
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Re:Plug the hole, Daddy.
« Reply #13 on: 2010-06-21 03:45:22 »
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Quote from: Fritz on 2010-06-20 19:57:11   
[i] So interestingly enough Blunderov you are in agreement with Glen Beck .
I am impressed


[Blunderov] Oh Fritz you are such a tease. I'm being ironic in a GOOD way, Beck on the other hand...

Ayn Rand was a great philosopher. Discuss.

"A building has integrity just like a man. And just as seldom."
Ayn Rand

[Bl.] This from the great 'builder'?

A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.]Supposedly competition is the basis of the free market. Creativity is usually subordinate to success in the business world as far as I can see. Unless of course Rand is talking about artists. I don't think she is.

A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving.
Ayn Rand

[Bl] This is quite simply not true of the real world. cf Don Quixote. There's a lot of it about.

Achievement of your happiness is the only moral purpose of your life, and that happiness, not pain or mindless self-indulgence, is the proof of your moral integrity, since it is the proof and the result of your loyalty to the achievement of your values.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.] Rand takes it upon herself to stipulate what we may and may not define as happiness?  Inflicting pain or indulging in mindless self-indulgence is disqualified? Why is this woman limiting my freedom to build a world in my own image?

Achieving life is not the equivalent of avoiding death.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.] Rhetoric. One might agree but the equivocation should be noted. Death is meant in the biological sense. Life is not.

Ask yourself whether the dream of heaven and greatness should be waiting for us in our graves - or whether it should be ours here and now and on this earth.
Ayn Rand

[Bl] Is this socialism? Somehow I suspect not. Rand probably intends this reward only for the deserving warrior creators. The disadvantaged need not apply.

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.] The ideal society is one without laws? Sounds a bit 'savage' to me.

Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.] I love this one. Rand contradicts the notion of contradiction? Perhaps she should revisit her premisies?

Do not ever say that the desire to "do good" by force is a good motive. Neither power-lust nor stupidity are good motives.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.] I wonder how many people wake up in the morning with the burning ambition to do something truly stupid? Not even BP I would guess. (BTW wouldn't it be nice if CNN referred to the gulf oil spill as "The BP Oil Spill in the Gulf". The gulf didn't do it all by itself after all.)

Every aspect of Western culture needs a new code of ethics - a rational ethics - as a precondition of rebirth.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.] Seems a bit absolutist. Every aspect? Including trickle down economics? Somehow I don't think Rand would go quite that far.
Ayn Rand

Every man builds his world in his own image. He has the power to choose, but no power to escape the necessity of choice.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.] A reasonable observation. However, some people have more choices than others it should be noted.

Evil requires the sanction of the victim.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.] "Well your honour, she was wearing a really short  skirt. She was asking for it."

Force and mind are opposites; morality ends where a gun begins.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.] If we achieve our ideal Randian society without law, where men a freed from men, what will remain but lex talionis?

From the smallest necessity to the highest religious abstraction, from the wheel to the skyscraper, everything we are and everything we have comes from one attribute of man - the function of his reasoning mind.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.]And oftentimes from the malfunction of his reasoning mind. Like for instance "The British Petroleum oil spill in the gulf".

God... a being whose only definition is that he is beyond man's power to conceive.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.] OK. Pass on that.

Government "help" to business is just as disastrous as government persecution... the only way a government can be of service to national prosperity is by keeping its hands off.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.] Government enforcement of unreasonable safety regulations caused the BP oil spill in the gulf?

Happiness is that state of consciousness which proceeds from the achievement of one's values.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.] I'm sure Hitler would have agreed.

I don't build in order to have clients. I have clients in order to build.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.]At what point though, does all this building become sufficient? If one's value is to build, and the achievement of happiness depends upon the realisation of one's values, then it seems we are doomed to the fate of Sisyphus. Stoics would perhaps agree. Rand however seems to believe it possible to transcend destiny which the Stoics do not.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Ayn Rand

[Bl.] Rand and her husband, Frank O’Connor, chose not to have any children. None of her main characters ever have children, and they are rarely mentioned in her fiction, leaving the question why she omitted that part of life, which is central to many people. Evidently her fondness for building did not extend to the institution of family. How much of Rand's much vaunted 'civilization' would exist if everyone chose as she did?

If any civilization is to survive, it is the morality of altruism that men have to reject.
[Bl.] Lex Talionis again. Hmmm.

[Bl.] I realise that the commentary that I have offered is somewhat flippant. It was jotted down off the top of my head. Nevertheless, feel free to dissect it mercilessly.

« Last Edit: 2010-06-21 03:51:35 by Blunderov » Report to moderator   Logged
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Re:Plug the hole, Daddy.
« Reply #14 on: 2010-06-21 04:01:05 »
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When I found out that 1) Ayn Rand rejected biological evolution, and 2) that she claimed to base her morality on "the nature of man", I decided that I would never waste my time reading anything by her. I've never regretted that decision. Some of my friends who have describe her stories as "sociopathic fairy tales".
-Mo
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(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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