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Re:Iran declares win for Ahmadinejad in disputed vote
« Reply #15 on: 2009-06-21 20:24:20 »
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Just a friendly reminder that the reason that Joes Dees/Salamantis posts are not replied to, even when he gives up creating his own threads to spam with neocon verbiage, and attempts to spam those of others, is not that his posts are filled with crunchy goodness, but simply because feeding trolls, even one as cuddly and loveable as ours, is always futile.

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Re:Iran declares win for Ahmadinejad in disputed vote
« Reply #16 on: 2009-06-22 07:51:33 »
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Source: Yahoo! News

Iran's Revolutionary Guard threatens protesters

TEHRAN, Iran – Iran's most powerful security force threatened Monday to crush any further opposition protests over the disputed presidential election, warning demonstrators to prepare for a "revolutionary confrontation" if they take to the streets again. It was the sternest warning yet from the elite Revolutionary Guard.

The country's highest electoral authority, the Guardian Council, acknowledged voting irregularities in 50 electoral districts in the June 12 vote, the most serious official admission so far of problems in the election that the opposition has labeled a fraud. But the council insisted the problems do not affect the outcome of the vote. The electoral council said President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad won by a landslide.

The Revolutionary Guard, in a statement posted on its Web site, warned protesters to "be prepared for a resolution and revolutionary confrontation with the Guards, Basij and other security forces and disciplinary forces" if they continue their near-daily rallies.

The Basij, a plainclothes militia under the command of the Revolutionary Guard, have been used to quell streets protests that erupted after the election result was announced. At least 17 protesters have been killed, according to an official Iranian toll.

The Guard statement ordered demonstrators to "end the sabotage and rioting activities" and said their resistance is a "conspiracy" against Iran.

Opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi vowed Sunday night to keep up the protests, charging the election was a fraud. The 67-year-old Mousavi, who heads a youth-driven movement for reform, claims he was the true winner of the election.

His statement was in defiance of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who holds ultimate power in Iran. In a sermon to tens of thousands on Friday, Khamenei said demonstrators must stop their street protests or face the consequences and he firmly backed Ahmadinejad's victory.

"The country belongs to you," Mousavi's latest statement said. "Protesting lies and fraud is your right."
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Re:Iran declares win for Ahmadinejad in disputed vote
« Reply #17 on: 2009-06-22 07:54:49 »
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Source: Yahoo! News

Obama stays with careful response to Iran crisis

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama says he does not want to become a scapegoat for Iran's leadership as postelection upheaval continues, but Republicans are still saying the new president is being too cautious.

"The last thing that I want to do is to have the United States be a foil for those forces inside Iran who would love nothing better than to make this an argument about the United States," Obama said in an interview to be broadcast Monday. "We shouldn't be playing into that."

The president spoke Friday during an interview with CBS News' Harry Smith. The interview will be broadcast on "The Early Show."

He told Pakistan's Dawn newspaper, in an interview published Sunday, that the United States has no way of knowing whether the disputed Iranian election 10 days ago was fair or not. Iranians should be able to peacefully protest the results in any case, Obama said.

That interview was also done last week. Obama said nothing about the crisis in public on Sunday, although a spokesman said he discussed Iran with foreign policy advisers in the Oval Office for more than 30 minutes. He later went golfing in Virginia.

Tehran's streets fell mostly quiet on Sunday for the first time since the bitterly disputed June 12 presidential election, but cries of "God is great" and "Death to the dictator" echoed from rooftops after nightfall. There were reports that government forces appeared to be pressing arrests of defiant protesters. At least 10 protesters were killed Saturday and the official death toll from the week of demonstrations stands at 17.

"The president of the United States is supposed to lead the free world, not follow it," Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said Sunday. "He's been timid and passive more than I would like."

Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., and others noted that Western leaders, including French President Nicolas Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel, have demanded a recount or more forcefully condemned the government crackdown.

"I'd like to see the president be stronger than he has been, although I appreciate the comments that he made yesterday," McCain said. "I think we ought to have America lead."

Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, said a slow or muted U.S. response risks undermining the aspirations of Iranian voters to change or question their government.

"If America stands for democracy and all of these demonstrations are going on in Tehran and other cities over there, and people don't think that we really care, then obviously they're going to question, 'Do we really believe in our principles?'" Grassley said.

Like other Democrats who spoke Sunday, Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California backed the president's approach.

"It is very crucial, as I see it, that we not have our fingerprints on this," she said, "that this really be ... truly inspired by the Iranian people. We don't know where this goes."

Indiana Sen. Richard Lugar, a moderate Republican who holds the party's top position on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, seemed to echo Obama's caution.

"The challenge continues, which is going to come to a conclusion one way or another," Lugar said. "Either the protesters bring about change or they're suppressed, and it's a potentially very brutal outcome at the end of the day."

Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., appearing with Graham on ABC's "This Week," said Obama is striking a delicate balance.

"You don't want to take ownership of this," Dodd said.

McCain was on CBS' "Face the Nation," and Feinstein, Lugar and Grassley spoke on "State of the Union" on CNN.

A day earlier, Obama invoked the American civil rights struggle to condemn violence against demonstrators, some of whom have carried signs in English asking, "Where is My Vote?"

It was his strongest statement on what has become the most significant challenge to Iran's ruling structure since the Islamic revolution 30 years ago, but he stopped short of calling for a recount or new election, as many of the demonstrators seek.

He avoided mentioning either incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or his principal challenger by name, and said nothing about his oft-repeated campaign promise of a fresh start in diplomatic talks with the main U.S. adversary in the Middle East.

Obama's defenders say his measured response speaks up for human rights while preserving U.S. options and lessening the chance that he becomes a scapegoat for the cleric-led government, which has blamed the West for stirring up street protests that turned into bloody clashes with police and militia.
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Re:Iran declares win for Ahmadinejad in disputed vote
« Reply #18 on: 2009-06-22 19:10:05 »
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Quote from: Fox on 2009-06-22 07:54:49   

Source: Yahoo! News

"The last thing that I want to do is to have the United States be a foil for those forces inside Iran who would love nothing better than to make this an argument about the United States," Obama said in an interview to be broadcast Monday. "We shouldn't be playing into that."

[Blunderov] He might have added that he did not wish to play into the hands of those outside Iran that wish the US to be a foil for Zionism. Well played Obama.



If there is an upside to the ongoing disasters in Afghanistan/Pakistan, perhaps it is that the US is far too stretched to consider the possibility of opening up yet another front? Not to forget that whatever happens in Iraq after the American withdrawal, it is by no means a foregone conclusion that all will be sweetness and light.

Too many weaknesses to defend. Not good. And not too many enthusiastic allies willing to rally to the cause either. Not to mention the economy. OMGWTFBBQ is, I believe, the correct expression.

Apparently al Qaeda has intimated that it would be all too happy to acquire Pakistani nukes and use then on Western targets(or so we are told). A poisoned pawn if ever I saw one. Clearly al Qaeda considers the dynamics of the situation to be in its favour. This is a very good time to take a close look at the woodpile IMV.
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Re:Iran declares win for Ahmadinejad in disputed vote
« Reply #19 on: 2009-06-22 19:11:50 »
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Re:Iran declares win for Ahmadinejad in disputed vote
« Reply #20 on: 2009-06-22 20:22:07 »
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I've only been half following this personally, but I've had a few conversations with people slightly more familiar with Iran than myself (including one friend who has visited and studied the country in an academic capacity), and my opinion hasn't changed much. Apparently Hermit thinks I believe that Mousavi won, which I wish to correct now. As for the exact mathematics, either outcome could be credible.

However I personally I think the 2 to 1 margin for Amedinajad seem incredulous especially as this scenario has Amedinajad winning by large margns in both Tehran and his major opponent's home town. While there have been such humiliating defeats in the history of credible Democracies this one if true certainly would land in the extreme cases, and generally those sorts of massive defeats are more commonly reserved for flushing the dominant party out of control - ie. "change" elections. In addition, it seems unlikely that the opposition would be able to mobilize such large, defiant, and enduring street demonstrations long into the aftermath. I can accept that the reformers may have lost narrowly,  but this level of street demonstrations by the losers are unlikely in event of such an allegedly resounding 2-1 defeat.

Finally, the timing of the election announcements still seem very fishy. Hermit invokes abbacci and rooms of women as a credible explanation. I've actually worked on quite a number of elections both local and national in the US, and even in the smallest elections I've never gotten the vote count properly counted and verified in less than an hour for a single precinct much less the whole voting universe, and that was with considerable electronic computer backup and verification. All of the early election results I've seen in the US only counted the early voters which have generally cast their ballot one to two weeks before the actual election day. Polls generally close at 7pm and I've never seen election day results available in less than two hours and very often later. Most election day "victory" parties are expected to go till midnight for that very reason.

I'm already hearing the regime's fudge facts coming out . . . only 3 million illegal voters! What a damning admission. It certainly sets the stage for for bigger 7 and eight digit margins of error. While the US has lots of voting issues, the level of actual vote fraud in the last few decades has been consistently in the 1 to 3 digit range when noticible at all. I'm sure that was back when we used rooms of women with abbaci

-Mo

ps - given the above, I'm willing to concede, and indeed I understand that social networking technology (which is currently very biased towards English speakers) is probably skewing the media perceptions, which is a large part of the reason I'm not staking my conclusions on an actual electoral win. I don't doubt that lots of people wanting Iran and the US to fight it out (like Israelis) are doing their part to propagate stories and images that flatter that agenda, but I don't think that translates into the capacity to completely invent reality. Indeed with the at least 3 million admitted illegal voters, it seems that those in control of the voting technology have already exploited their advantages over those in control of other social technology.
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Re:Iran declares win for Ahmadinejad in disputed vote
« Reply #21 on: 2009-06-22 21:50:22 »
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Quote from: Hermit on 2009-06-21 20:24:20   
Just a friendly reminder that the reason that Joes Dees/Salamantis posts are not replied to, even when he gives up creating his own threads to spam with neocon verbiage, and attempts to spam those of others, is not that his posts are filled with crunchy goodness, but simply because feeding trolls, even one as cuddly and loveable as ours, is always futile.

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LoL! yeah he's certainly committed himself to stupid neo-con agenda and propaganda. I agree that if you are feeding him because you hope he will join reality at some point is completely futile. He will either join or not according to his own whims, which I would never count on for my own purposes. However, he has proven himself persistent, and the few posts he has actually composed himself, I've taken some extra time to read even if I don't otherwise take him seriously. I agree about not feeding our trolls, however, it seems to even make such a point especially when we all know whom you are talking about, is at least humorous, if not counter-productive. Anyway, its all been cut-n-paste with him on this topic . . . so I'm with you on not feeding the trolls this time, but I still think you have otherwise have a slightly softer spot in your heart for him than our average regular trolls. -Mo
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Re:Iran declares win for Ahmadinejad in disputed vote
« Reply #22 on: 2009-06-22 22:14:05 »
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[Mo] I still think you have otherwise have a slightly softer spot in your heart for him than our average regular trolls. -Mo

[Hermit] Given that our troll is so soft and cuddly and all that, how can one resist? 

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Re:Iran declares win for Ahmadinejad in disputed vote
« Reply #23 on: 2009-06-22 23:46:06 »
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Mo, the "story" of the election that you are answering and repeating is a strawman. The chronology is important. The opposition claimed a win right as the counting began. How did they know? ESP? Or was it a calculated tactical move intended to cause chaos? The government predictably responded, also before official results were available, that the count showed Ahmadinejad was in the lead with about 2/3 of the vote - which was exactly as predicted by numerous polls before the election. The twitter storm and rioting began immediately. We have already seen that the initial twittering storm was initiated by an article in the JPost (Jerusalem Post) - an extreme right wing Israeli publication. Even though this might be seen as a funny place for Iranians to coordinate their activities, it might be regarded as less strange had the JPost not censored the paragraph in question as soon as it was remarked on.

As the count proceeded Ahmadinejad's lead firmed up, and every news source in Iran published consistently to that effect, but despite this, the rioters didn't reduce their activity. Which to anyone thinking about it, even if not trained in COINOPS, is a dead-giveaway that some group or groups were arranging, coordinating and instigating the riots.

Voting irregularities are endemic in most elections and indeed in most large scale human activities, and these become more visible the more you investigate. Sometimes this becomes visible, for example in the US in 2000 where the Supreme Court determined that the election had been stolen, but that there was no remedy, and in South Africa in the 1992 election leading to the ANC take-over, which was rife with irregularities - most instigated by the ANC - which were deliberately overlooked, as the result of not certifying the elections "free and fair" would have been major unrest with unpredictable consequences. The irregularities in the current Iranian elections may be addressed over time, but probably no more so than the strange results in Florida in 2000 or Ohio in 2004 have done in the USA. Please note that even if a full third  of the Iranian votes were simply added to the count (and I would be amazed if this were the case as the Iranians are not stupid, no matter how most Americans think of them), it wouldn't change the result. And that is the point. Everyone that was not delusional knew going into the election that Ahmadinejad was going to win. He has won. What has happened and is happening in Iran is not political action, it is massive manipulation of Iranians and the media with nasty consequences for lots of people. The usual questions for investigators are "who benefits", "why" and "how", while maintaining the awareness that coincidences happen. In this case, before one can ask "who benefits" we also need to ask, "what is the benefit." Clearly Iran does not benefit in any way from this chaos. So, assuming the chaos is deliberate, who benefits from a breakdown of the perceived legitimacy of Ahmadinejad's government? While Americans are probably involved, America itself doesn't benefit. While less directly involved, Israel arguably does benefit. So Americans who think that they should not be involved in destabilizing other countries should perhaps be looking to see how Israel influences Americans and their politicians and asking how to prevent this.

Some of the "how" is already visible. More of it will become apparent over time if you watch dispassionately. If I were in the Iranian government, I would be working to establish cases designed to expose the source of the twitter clouds. We know that they have their national gateways tightly controlled and likely logged, so we know that the most of the sources were probably not in Iran. I would also be involved in tracking down the fingerprint of the 475 million dollars poured into Iranian political and guerilla (terrorist) groups by the US congress in the last two years, and the election related activities of Israeli agents in Iran and the USA. I think that the questions of "who" could be reliably answered by this information.

Finally, I think that Obomber is doing pretty well on Iran. I'd give him a D. To have scored higher, he should have restricted himself to his first comments and not added the second more intrusive set, even though I am sure that the pressure on him from the Clintonites and the rest of the Likudnicks is pretty extreme. Even though this puts them in the weird position of saying the same things as the neocons and extreme religious-right of the Republicans. Which also, in a way, tells a tale of motivation and inspiration.

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Re:Iran declares win for Ahmadinejad in disputed vote
« Reply #24 on: 2009-06-23 09:14:00 »
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Quote from: Hermit on 2009-06-22 22:14:05   

[Mo] I still think you have otherwise have a slightly softer spot in your heart for him than our average regular trolls. -Mo

Probably. I prefer the troll I know over the trolls I don't know.

back to the subject line . . . yes, I'm aware that Mousavi's side declared victory first. Probably a posturing move, but then any reasonable person knows that they didn't actually have access to the real results and of course ESP isn't a likely explanation either. On the other hand the government did have greater access to the actual voting results, and so their declarations mean something more. Probably their better move would have been to simply cast doubt on the early declaration of the opponent, wait a reasonable period of a few hours and then declare the result (or whatever "result" they wished to declare).

As for margins of error, a few thousand votes could be understandable. Perhaps even something between 10-100K could have an innocent explanation, but millions violates any reasonable sense of credibility. Once again, I'm not asserting that the opposition actually one. Perhaps in their haste the government stole an election that they didn't really need to. In any case, the smell of fishiness remains.
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Re:Iran declares win for Ahmadinejad in disputed vote
« Reply #25 on: 2009-06-23 17:26:21 »
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I almost never paste Faux News into my offerings, however when they are right why should I deny them just because they are normally a propaganda outlet?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,528441,00.html

Anyway, I do that mostly to accentuate my point that this image of a gunned down woman and the story of a female martyr in Iran is becoming more real than all the ballots that will never get recounted (or even possibly counted for the first time). We can keep talking about the technicalities of elections and get ignored, or move on to the human element of the story. Neda. Let not the fact that Fox bit early dissuade you from its memetic realities. In a few weeks this may be all we are left to talk about.

PS. even Obama seems to have recognized the power of the image and has referenced it himself.
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Re:Iran declares win for Ahmadinejad in disputed vote
« Reply #26 on: 2009-06-23 21:17:41 »
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[Mo] I almost never paste Faux News into my offerings, however when they are right why should I deny them just because they are normally a propaganda outlet?

<snip>


[Hermit]
Right? About what?

Neda Soltan's death is sad. The imagery surrounding it is powerful, sentimental and ultimately irrelevant.

Shit happens to nice people and not nice people alike, but more frequently when they are involved in rioting. Nobody knows who killed her and depending on the weapon used, nobody may ever know who killed her. The story can be spun to be divisive or to heal. The fact is that her death is being used by people with their own agendas who didn't give a shit about her life or her statistically predictable death, but have seized on the schlocky imagery as a stick to belabour the Iranian government and is far more effective outside Iran (which treats women very well compared to most of the Islamic countries with which the US is friendly and where the will of the people is even more utterly irrelevant tyhan in the USA) than inside. It remains perfectly clear to anybody not suffering from cognitive dissonance that the Iranian election, however flawed and however abused, was valid and conclusive, and the flaws that were present could have been addressed without any of the violence we are seeing.

The people rioting are the young and the foolish. Those who could be and have been manipulated by others with their own reasons having little to nothing to do with Iran's electoral practices. I can't feel anything except anger towards those who play games like this. No matter where it occurs. Especially when they are supported by soft glowing lights carefully placed around the corpse of somebody who got caught in the grinder by the badly named Faux "news" entertainment service.
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Re:Iran declares win for Ahmadinejad in disputed vote
« Reply #27 on: 2009-06-24 07:26:37 »
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[Blunderov] Again, not my field. I would caution though, that if this evidence does show that the tallies were altered, it does not show whether these numbers were adjusted up or down. The assumption is that they were adjusted up (in favour of Ahmadinejad)but this isn't necessarily so*. I think it is important to beware of assumptions. They are, as a wise man once said, the mother of all fuck-ups.



‘Iran’s election was fixed,’ say number crunchers

Sources: 3quarksdaily , thegreatbeyond , washingtonpost
Dated: 23 June 2009, 05:29:15 PM
Author/s: Abbas Raza, Bernd Beber and Alexandra Scacco, Daniel Cressey (in Nature)

It is widely acknowledged that humans are very bad at making up random numbers. If we weren’t we wouldn’t have invested so much time in developing random number generators.

Now some work by political scientists Bernd Berber and Alexandra Scacco, of Columbia University, suggests that fact hasn’t reached certain key individuals in Iran. As the country struggles with the violent aftermath of its recent hotly contested election, Berber and Scacco say the results of that election seem highly suspicious.

They used the results published by the Ministry of the Interior and examined the last two digits of the votes reported for the four main candidates.

“The numbers look suspicious,” they report in the Washington Post.

There are far too many 7s, for a start, and not enough 5s. Such results would occur in fewer than four in 100 non-manipulated election results, they write.

That would not rule out Iran’s election being fair. But Scacco and Berber go further. They note that previous work has proven that humans have trouble generating “non-adjacent digits”, ie: 27 as opposed to 23, or 36 rather than 34. Non-manipulated results should be approximately 70% non-adjacent digits; Iran’s results are 62% non-adjacent.

The probability of that happening in a fair election is less than 4.2%, they write.

More here. In the Washington Post article, Bernd Beber and Alexandra Scacco conclude:

Each of these two tests provides strong evidence that the numbers released by Iran's Ministry of the Interior were manipulated. But taken together, they leave very little room for reasonable doubt. The probability that a fair election would produce both too few non-adjacent digits and the suspicious deviations in last-digit frequencies described earlier is less than .005. In other words, a bet that the numbers are clean is a one in two-hundred long shot. [My emphasis.]

Also see: Chatham House Study Definitively Shows Massive Ballot Fraud in Iran's Reported Results

*[Bl.]It is at least conceivable that Ahmadinejad's results were misguidedly adjusted downward in order, perhaps, to give more credibility to the result. Not likely, I concede. But possible. Beware assumption I say again.

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Re:Iran declares win for Ahmadinejad in disputed vote
« Reply #28 on: 2009-06-24 10:51:48 »
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*[Bl.]It is at least conceivable that Ahmadinejad's results were misguidedly adjusted downward in order, perhaps, to give more credibility to the result. Not likely, I concede. But possible. Beware assumption I say again.


More likely the adjustments were for the incumbent who usually has numerous advantages, not least owning the people arranging the counting.

Note that these are some of the same techniques that suggest that US elections are manipulated on a massive scale. Curiously no invstigation of the US election process appears to be planned, even though the combination of possible electoral fraud, a system erected to prevent 3rd parties from developing footing and a media system owned by a small number of entities with the ability to control perception of the news beyond anything achieved by any previous totalitarian regime means that the government of the USA is anything but representative.

One wonders if Iran were to pump $US 475 million into a combination of candidates for the next US elections and anti-American guerilla groups, and then claim to have swept the boards before the counting is half-begun, never mind completed, whether the world and the USA will be quite so keen to accept their assertions?

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Re:Iran declares win for Ahmadinejad in disputed vote
« Reply #29 on: 2009-06-24 11:06:40 »
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Quote from: Hermit on 2009-06-24 10:51:48   
*[Bl.]It is at least conceivable that Ahmadinejad's results were misguidedly adjusted downward in order, perhaps, to give more credibility to the result. Not likely, I concede. But possible. Beware assumption I say again.


More likely the adjustments were for the incumbent who usually has numerous advantages, not least owning the people arranging the counting.

Note that these are some of the same techniques that suggest that US elections are manipulated on a massive scale. Curiously no invstigation of the US election process appears to be planned, even though the combination of possible electoral fraud, a system erected to prevent 3rd parties from developing footing and a media system owned by a small number of entities with the ability to control perception of the news beyond anything achieved by any previous totalitarian regime means that the government of the USA is anything but representative.

One wonders if Iran were to pump $US 475 million into a combination of candidates for the next US elections and anti-American guerilla groups, and then claim to have swept the boards before the counting is half-begun, never mind completed, whether the world and the USA will be quite so keen to accept their assertions?

Kindest Regards
Hermit & Co


Certainly an interesting and worthwhile thought experiement.

As for massive US election manipulation. . . I have my doubts, however effective manipulation need not always be so massive. In 2000 Bush cronies only had to manipulate Florida's vote and the Supreme Court which they obviously proved up to. Because we use this antiquated electoral college system, you don't really have to engage in massive manipulation. A state or two will do the trick.

In any case these recent US examples have simply been playing with small margins which have been ever more decisive in US politics pre-Obama. The difference there is that Obama more or less sucessfully ran for a mandate rather than 50% plus one. Its something the GOP never really planned for.
« Last Edit: 2009-06-24 11:16:10 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme


(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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