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Mermaid
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Re:Govt tells singles No Sex Till You are 30.
« Reply #15 on: 2006-11-07 15:04:26 »
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Quote from: Bass on 2006-11-07 09:00:18   

I think logically speaking, from the governments point of view, programs designed to reduce the amount of people that are likely to require government aid sound good. If you like it or not, most people that the government ends up supporting are children...be it the children of a single parent, a ward of the state, or simpley the children of a familiy that doesn;t have enough money to get by. Saying they should 'wait until marriage' is the biggest falicy really...just because you're married does not mean you're always going to have a stable job or home to raise children in...you may yet need government support.

But, of course, we see that duality in our government of optimistic pessamisem. Programs to advise women to wait until their 18 to have sex barely work...programs to advice women to avoid having sex until 30 are doomed to failure, safe or otherwise. Our society, our media, is geared towards mindless self gratification...it's what causes us to spend money and causes growth in the economy. Sex sells...it sells just about everything...you can't expect people to wait for marraige for idiot pleasure when in the next sentence you try to get them to buy the newest 'insert item here' because its sexy and sure to get you noticed by 'insert gender of preference here'.

It's all silly, but I don't blame the government, I blame the people. Humanity is retarded.

bingo. married with children also dip into government programs. i think the govt is essentially trying to prevent single parenthood. single mothers at 30 are as draining on the surplus(or budget as the case may be) as are single mothers at 18. now...the problem is that the govt wants to promote abstinence rather than birth control.

this, of course, relates directly to the religious agenda of the current admin. spending that much money on promoting 'no sex until marriage' is about the same as promoting a godly message of chastity. of course, the govt cannot legally invoke the godly advice of chastity by using money from the coffers. so effectively, this is a rerouting of funds to sell the current admin's agenda. do they know that asking people to not have sex until they are married/30 is doomed? i am sure they do. but thats not the point, i'd imagine. the way i see it, it is merely an allocation of funds to spread the word/sermonise a religious virtue.
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Re:Govt tells singles No Sex Till You are 30.
« Reply #16 on: 2006-11-08 13:38:16 »
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2006-11-07 14:51:46   
after hermit's exercise in counting, i have to point out that everything 'social' is used to characterise/describe the function of church/religion. chess clubs, rotarty, lions or gay clubs do not have protected freedoms under the constitution. religion does.

[Blunderov] I think Hermit made much the same point a bit back from here: the movers and shakers are hip to this social riff.

And yes, in my revery, I had somewhat overlooked the social cohesivenes that you get for your money with Christianity. Many atheists attend church religiously for social reasons. But, and it's a biggish one, the English style of religion (Dawkins mentions this in his latest) is an almost atheistic deism in it's most refined guise. This sadly unnoticed aspect of modern of religion is more moral philosophy than it is bible thumping. And infinitely preferable. ("Could do better" though, a phrase very familiar to me from my school days.) 

I maintain however that the white wedding is a toxic meme that is crucial to the (now) useless edifice...

Love to you both.
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Re:Govt tells singles No Sex Till You are 30.
« Reply #17 on: 2006-11-08 20:08:45 »
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Quote from: Blunderov on 2006-11-08 13:38:16   


Quote from: Mermaid on 2006-11-07 14:51:46   
after hermit's exercise in counting, i have to point out that everything 'social' is used to characterise/describe the function of church/religion. chess clubs, rotarty, lions or gay clubs do not have protected freedoms under the constitution. religion does.

[Blunderov] I think Hermit made much the same point a bit back from here: the movers and shakers are hip to this social riff.

huh..what???


Quote:
And yes, in my revery, I had somewhat overlooked the social cohesivenes that you get for your money with Christianity. Many atheists attend church religiously for social reasons.

so you know some of them?


Quote:
But, and it's a biggish one, the English style of religion (Dawkins mentions this in his latest) is an almost atheistic deism in it's most refined guise. This sadly unnoticed aspect of modern of religion is more moral philosophy than it is bible thumping. And infinitely preferable. ("Could do better" though, a phrase very familiar to me from my school days.) 

other than a thin sliver in the bible belt where fundies outnumber 'the others', this is the case in most of the world. and we are not talking about xianity alone when we take the whole world into consideration.


Quote:
I maintain however that the white wedding is a toxic meme that is crucial to the (now) useless edifice...

Love to you both.

i disagree. we can take it up if you want. if it is indeed useless, why is majority of the world still getting married? i suppose we have to start with the definition of 'useless' and for whom.
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Re:Govt tells singles No Sex Till You are 30.
« Reply #18 on: 2006-11-08 22:34:44 »
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage

Since the later decades of the 20th century many traditional assumptions about the nature and purpose of marriage and family have been challenged, in particular by LGBT social movements, who disagree with the notion that marriage should be exclusively heterosexual. Some people also argue that marriage may be an unnecessary legal fiction. This follows from an overall shift in Western ideas and practices of family; since WWII, the West has seen a dramatic increase in divorce (6% to over 40% of first marriages), cohabitation without marriage, a growing unmarried population, children born outside of marriage (5% to over 33% of births), and an increase in adultery (8% to over 40%). A system of somewhat serial monogamy has de facto emerged.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Re:Govt tells singles No Sex Till You are 30.
« Reply #19 on: 2006-11-09 02:17:12 »
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[Quote Bl.] And yes, in my revery, I had somewhat overlooked the social cohesivenes that you get for your money with Christianity. Many atheists attend church religiously for social reasons.

[Mermaid] So you know some of them?

[Bl.1] Yes. One atheist I knew attended church for purely business reasons.

[Quote Bl.] But, and it's a biggish one, the English style of religion (Dawkins mentions this in his latest) is an almost atheistic deism in it's most refined guise. This sadly unnoticed aspect of modern of religion is more moral philosophy than it is bible thumping. And infinitely preferable. 

[Mermaid] other than a thin sliver in the bible belt where fundies outnumber 'the others', this is the case in most of the world. and we are not talking about xianity alone when we take the whole world into consideration.

[Bl.] I'm not sure I agree. The English style of religion to which I refer tip-toes around the complication of "God" as much as possible. On the other hand, most churches that I have seen in action make lavish reference to "Gard" whenever possible. So much so that a Martian anthropologist might quite easily mistake
such speechifying as referring to some kind of super-dog living in the back-yard which guards the precincts of the church and occasionally attacks selected evil-doers upon request. In these churches it is my observation that the word "Gard" is, for preference, pronounced with a sort of awe-stricken strangled gargle in the middle of the word. A visiting Martian anthropologist might gather that this is intended to convey the speakers heartfelt reverence for the beast to which he refers.

[Quote Bl.]I maintain however that the white wedding is a toxic meme that is crucial to the (now) useless edifice...

[Mermaid] ... if it is indeed useless, why is majority of the world still getting married? i suppose we have to start with the definition of 'useless' and for whom.

[Bl.] I don't think it's clear that because a thing is often done that it must be useful. It might or might not be. Many feminists would, I think, agree with me that the white wedding is a toxic meme which lures women into an oppressive patriarchal system which presumes to exercise authority over their sexualities.
"Useless" is perhaps the wrong word to choose in this context; "outrageous" seems closer to the mark.

[Mermaid] i disagree. we can take it up if you want.

[Bl.] I'm not avid to do so; feminism is not my project particularly and this conversation seems destined for those waters if we persist in it. My main point was that the church seems to depend for it's social relevance on a near monopoly of rites of passage, marriage chief amongst them. Take these away and most likely the rest of it will wither away too. The Wikipedia information which the Hermit provided seems to suggest that this may already be happening.

Best regards.





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Re:Govt tells singles No Sex Till You are 30.
« Reply #20 on: 2006-11-09 12:16:47 »
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Quote from: Blunderov on 2006-11-09 02:17:12   

[Quote Bl.] And yes, in my revery, I had somewhat overlooked the social cohesivenes that you get for your money with Christianity. Many atheists attend church religiously for social reasons.

[Mermaid] So you know some of them?

[Bl.1] Yes. One atheist I knew attended church for purely business reasons.

does he speak about how it helps? does he pretend to be religious..pray, fast etc..or he just attends to meet/network with people?


Quote:

[Quote Bl.] But, and it's a biggish one, the English style of religion (Dawkins mentions this in his latest) is an almost atheistic deism in it's most refined guise. This sadly unnoticed aspect of modern of religion is more moral philosophy than it is bible thumping. And infinitely preferable. 

[Mermaid] other than a thin sliver in the bible belt where fundies outnumber 'the others', this is the case in most of the world. and we are not talking about xianity alone when we take the whole world into consideration.

[Bl.] I'm not sure I agree. The English style of religion to which I refer tip-toes around the complication of "God" as much as possible. On the other hand, most churches that I have seen in action make lavish reference to "Gard" whenever possible. So much so that a Martian anthropologist might quite easily mistake
such speechifying as referring to some kind of super-dog living in the back-yard which guards the precincts of the church and occasionally attacks selected evil-doers upon request. In these churches it is my observation that the word "Gard" is, for preference, pronounced with a sort of awe-stricken strangled gargle in the middle of the word. A visiting Martian anthropologist might gather that this is intended to convey the speakers heartfelt reverence for the beast to which he refers.

i suppose we have had different experiences.


Quote:
[Quote Bl.]I maintain however that the white wedding is a toxic meme that is crucial to the (now) useless edifice...

[Mermaid] ... if it is indeed useless, why is majority of the world still getting married? i suppose we have to start with the definition of 'useless' and for whom.

[Bl.] I don't think it's clear that because a thing is often done that it must be useful. It might or might not be. Many feminists would, I think, agree with me that the white wedding is a toxic meme which lures women into an oppressive patriarchal system which presumes to exercise authority over their sexualities.

would they? do you think they'd also say that all relationships with men is toxic and oppressive? how is a marriage more toxic than a live-in, non-platonic arrangement with a man? according to feminists, that is..as you have chosen to bring them up.


Quote:
"Useless" is perhaps the wrong word to choose in this context; "outrageous" seems closer to the mark.

in the united states, many people find marriage useful. for greencards, insurance, taxes etc.

what is your take on the recent calls by gay people to legalise marriages/unions? gay marriage? is it useful? useless? outrageous? obviously, feminist's take on marriage wont be required here.


Quote:
[Mermaid] i disagree. we can take it up if you want.

[Bl.] I'm not avid to do so; feminism is not my project particularly and this conversation seems destined for those waters if we persist in it.

interesting. feminism isnt my project either. i was wondering why you brought them up.


Quote:
My main point was that the church seems to depend for it's social relevance on a near monopoly of rites of passage, marriage chief amongst them.

what about civil unions/marriages? in some cultures, marriage ceremonies, religious or otherwise, is required to unite two families and foster social ties rather than to strengthen the power of the church/religious authority. marriage is not just useful, it is a powerful unifying aspect. it is a symbolic tradition which proves that individuals, while being individuals, are still part of a larger fabric called society.


Quote:
Take these away and most likely the rest of it will wither away too. The Wikipedia information which the Hermit provided seems to suggest that this may already be happening.

Best regards.


again, i disagree. but i think we can agree to disagree.
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Re:Govt tells singles No Sex Till You are 30.
« Reply #21 on: 2006-11-09 14:05:17 »
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2006-11-09 12:16:47   
again, i disagree. but i think we can agree to disagree.

[Blunderov] Certainly we can. I do think that we have been arguing more at cross-puposes  than opposition. I have no fundamental objection to marriage. I do have an objection to the church presuming to own the institution however.

OK?
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Re:Govt tells singles No Sex Till You are 30.
« Reply #22 on: 2006-11-09 14:51:06 »
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Quote from: Blunderov on 2006-11-09 14:05:17   


Quote from: Mermaid on 2006-11-09 12:16:47   
again, i disagree. but i think we can agree to disagree.

[Blunderov] Certainly we can. I do think that we have been arguing more at cross-puposes  than opposition.

sure.


Quote:
I have no fundamental objection to marriage. I do have an objection to the church presuming to own the institution however.

OK?

i dont think the church owns the institution of marriage, however. or even presumes to. the godless get married. the gay community that the church shuns does. some people get married again and again and again. if anything, i believe that it is the govt rather than the church that is presuming to own the institution.
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Re:Govt tells singles No Sex Till You are 30.
« Reply #23 on: 2006-11-09 16:38:25 »
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[Mermaid] i believe that it is the govt rather than the church that is presuming to own the institution.

[Blunderov] You may be right. Or it may be that it is difficult to draw a clear distinction between either party in this case.

For interest, and not for making any particular point:

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion?pid=138811

BLOG | Posted 11/09/2006 @ 3:12pm
Goodbye, Ruby Tuesday
Liza Featherstone
 
I've received some sad news. The writer Ellen Willis, one of my heroes, died this morning of lung cancer, much too young (65). I will miss her lucid thinking about culture and politics, bracing scorn for sentimental obfuscation (whether from the right or the left), radical vision of a better society and gift for the art of writing.

Though Willis wholeheartedly participated in sixties counterculture, she wrote incisively about its foolishness. A policeman's daughter, she described demonstrators' cop-hating as "another pretense that white bohemians and radicals are as oppressed as ghetto blacks," and "fierce bohemian contempt for all those slobs who haven't seen the light."

A founding member of Redstockings, Willis was an articulate champion of seventies radical feminism, but wrote equally well about the pleasure-hating eighties, with its drug wars, censorship and the rise of the "right to life" movement. She was deeply committed to a vision of love between free people, and through that lens, the social control decade took on a fresh desolation. She was eloquent about the extent to which fear of the libido not only energized the evangelical far right but had permeated feminism. Writing about feminist anti-porn crusades, she urged women not to "accept a spurious moral superiority as a substitute for sexual pleasure, and curbs on men's sexual freedom as a substitute for real power." Yet she admitted that the sexual radicals like herself didn't have all the answers, and had "failed to put forth a convincing analysis of sexual violence, exploitation and alienation."

Writing during this period, she created an alter ego for herself -- and anyone else trying to live a passionate life in hostile times -- an alienated character called Ruby Tuesday, periodically adrift from a cohesive community or social movement, asserting deviant desires in a culture that pretends we all want the same things.

But despite Willis's sense of isolation and libertarian commitment to the individual -- both of which pervade her writing in every era -- she never lost sight of the importance of social movements: "The struggle for freedom, pleasure, transcendence is not just an individual matter. The social system that...as far as possible channels our desires, is antagonistic to that struggle; to change this requires collective effort."

Like her character Ruby Tuesday, who ends up seducing reporters who come to interview her, Willis was boldly optimistic about the transformative powers of desire, and the threateningly political implications of happiness. "The power of the ecstatic moment," she writes, "This is what freedom is like, this is what love could be, this is what happens when the boundaries are gone -- is precisely the power to reimagine the world, to reclaim a human identity that's neither victim nor oppressor."

Like many feminists of my generation, I revered Ellen Willis and have been deeply influenced by her writing. I didn't know her well as a person, however. Once at a party, I decided I had to talk to her, and tell her how much I admired her work. She seemed mortified, though not altogether displeased. After that, whenever we'd run into each other, she was pleasant enough, but always shy and awkward. I would often see her circling a party alone, apparently not finding anyone she was inclined to chat with, or any cluster she wanted to join. Still, I'm glad I got to tell her that I was a huge fan. I hope she enjoyed hearing that, at least a little bit.

(I should admit, I'm plagiarizing myself somewhat. I've written about Ellen Willis's work before, in a "What Are They Reading?" on the Nation's website, and in a review of her 1993 book No More Nice Girls, the first piece I ever wrote for the Nation, which ran in the magazine October 4 of that year.)




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Re:Govt tells singles No Sex Till You are 30.
« Reply #24 on: 2006-11-09 16:59:24 »
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thanks for the link, blunderov.

btw..intrigued by the subject, i went net trawling and i found something interesting about divorce in israel. apparently, there is no seperation between synagogue and state. i thought it was a democracy. at least, thats what they keep saying when islam has to be villified about its 'brutal treatment of women'. i am really surprised that there is neither civil marriage or divorce in Israel. so you are probably right...at least in the context of israel. i suppose its all the same in that part of world.

i dont understand how it works for people who are not religious in israel. their marriage isnt recognised? must look it up.

still reading on other countries/cultures/religions...will update on anything else that is interesting if i find them.

link: http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1108/p07s02-wome.html

It's been nearly three years since Ariela Dadon began trying to divorce her abusive husband. But she can't gain her freedom or the right to remarry because her estranged husband has refused to grant her a get, a Jewish divorce writ that can only be given by a man to his wife - never the other way around.

[..]

While rights groups have lobbied for it, neither civil marriage nor divorce exist in Israel.

[..]

Halakha, or Jewish religious law, makes it clear that it is the husband's place to give his wife a get, but various forms of pressure may be placed upon him if he is deemed unreasonable.

"Israel is the only country in the world where there wasn't supposed to be an issue of [Jewish] women stuck waiting for a get," Ms. Azaria says.

Since there is no separation here between synagogue and state, state religious authorities can resort to all kinds of tactics to get men who have no intention to reconcile to agree to a divorce. These vary from freezing bank accounts, revoking driver's licenses, and throwing the men in prison. They can be stopped at the airport.

But religious authorities, advocates say, often prefer outmoded techniques that work only in the most traditional communities. These include putting social pressure on the husband and ostracizing him from group prayer or study.

[..]
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Re:Govt tells singles No Sex Till You are 30.
« Reply #25 on: 2006-11-17 07:49:02 »
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[Blunderov] A cunning ploy. What you do is appoint a wingnut to head up an idiotic program. In this way all the charges of brain-deadness will attract to that person thus leaving the basic subliminal message unsullied so as to enhance its absorbtion rate in the huddled, and far too randy, masses. Sneaky, very sneaky.

http://feministing.com/archives/006076.html

November 16, 2006
Breaking: Bush appoints abstinence-only nut to oversee repro rights funding 

Hold on to your hats. I hear from a little birdie that the Bush administration has hired Dr. Eric Keroack to oversee Title X funding—the only federal program devoted entirely to family planning and reproductive health.

Keroack, who is currently the medical director of a Massachusetts pregnancy crisis center (you know, the folks that lie to women), will be the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Population Affairs.

Keroack is not only a well-known anti-choicer, he’s also a major proponent of abstinence-only education…and when I say proponent, I mean fucking insane person.

At the Annual Abstinence Leadership Conference in Kansas, Keroack defended abstinence (in an aptly titled talk, "If I Only Had a Brain") by claiming that sex causes people to go through oxytocin withdrawal which in turn prevents people from bonding in relationships. Seriously.

[Keroack] explained that oxytocin is released during positive social interaction, massage, hugs, “trust” encounters, and sexual intercourse. “It promotes bonding by reducing fear and anxiety in social settings, increasing trust and trustworthiness, reducing stress and pain, and decreasing social aggression,” he said.
But apparently if you’ve had sex with too many people you use up all that oxytocin: "People who have misused their sexual faculty and become bonded to multiple persons will diminish the power of oxytocin to maintain a permanent bond with an individual.” Hear that? Too many sexual partners and you’ll never love again!

The good doctor has also explained his use of ultrasounds in anti-abortion counseling by stating, “even Midas lets you look at your old muffler before they advise you to change it.”

And this is the guy who is going to have control over hundreds of millions of dollars in federal funding meant to provide access to contraception and reproductive health information—specifically to low income Americans.

I'm trying to figure out who the best folks are to contact to oppose this douche--apparently there's no confirmation process for this position, he just shows up to work. On Monday.

Posted by Jessica at 10:39 AM | in Health , Politics , Reproductive Rights


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Re:Govt tells singles No Sex Till You are 30.
« Reply #26 on: 2006-12-24 07:26:59 »
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[Blunderov] Startling new research suggests that fucking is not only very popular but always has been.

http://www.rollingstone.com/nationalaffairs/?p=871

As American as “Abstinence Only?” Not for 19 in 20
21 December 2006, 03:22:38 | Tim Dickinson
Here’s a shocker:

Most Americans have had premarital sex

The AP headline doesn’t really get to the wet-and-wild nub of it: Ninety-Five Percent of Americans, young and old, engage or once engaged in pre-nuptial nookie, according to a longitudinal survey of the sexual behavior of more than 38,000 people.

UPDATE: My sister-in-law, an STD doc for L.A. County, highlights this finding for me:  “I think what’s really interesting about this is that they interviewed folks born in the 1940’s and 1950’s as well. So much for saying that times have changed!  It’s probably that one no longer is frowned upon for disclosing premaritial sex.”

What’s more, three fourths of all Americans give it up to somebody other than their spouse by age 20. All of which suggests that the Bush administration’s $100 million anti-fucking campaigns are worse than fucking futile, they’re fucking anti-American.

This tops off a terrific triumverate of holiday news.

First: Booze is good for you.

Second: Valued at $35 billion, marijuana is America’s top cash crop.

And third: Everybody fucks.

So get out there and enjoy your Christmas parties America.

It’s OK. Everybody’s doing it.
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