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Topic: RE: virus: Oscar contenders take a left turn (Read 3696 times) |
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Oscar contenders take a left turn
« Reply #15 on: 2006-03-12 02:21:46 » |
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[Blunderov] let the lists begin.
"Number of Dead by Imperialism/Colonialism : 99 700 000 ... add the deaths
by malnutrition, which are 30 000 000 every year."
Deaths by smoking and automobile not included. We should not forget to
include the deaths yet to come from global warming if it should turn out to
be (Capitalist) man made.
Best regards.
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?s=fde661ea44e70bc3557f937ccfc5e2e
1&showtopic=44797&st=0&#entry1292030741
End 19th century - beginning of 20th
Last repressions anti-Indians in the USA, which transfer the term of the
committed génocide at the 19th century: 100 000
The war anglo-boer (for the control of South Africa) 1902 : 100 000
Victims of the colonial conquests of the end of the 19th century and the
beginning of the 20th century (of which the conquest of Korea by Japan,
1908) : 500 000
The Russo-Japanese war (1904-1905). The only battle of Moukden that made
more than 100 000 deaths : 300 000
The repression of the Revolution of 1905 in Russia: 100 000
The Italo-Turkish war for Tripolitaine (1911) : 50 000
Balkan wars (1912-1913) between Turkey, Serbia and Bulgaria: 500 000
The Armenian génocide in Turkey : 1 500 000
The First World War (1914-1918) : 8 500 000
The civil war in the USSR, the consecutive famines and epidemics with the
foreign interventions and the blockade by Occident : 6 000 000
Repressions after the revolutionary movement in the various countries
dEurope, Finland, Country-Baltic, Hungary, Germany, Poland, Romania,
Bulgaria (1918-1923) : 200 000
The gréco-Turkish war (1920-1922), with more than 1 500 000 exiled: 100 000
Victims of Fascism in Europe before the Second World war (1924-1939) : 150
000
The Franco-Spanish war counters the Morrocans of Rif (1925-1926) : 50 000
Military interventions of the USA in Central America, South America and in
the Caribbean (1910-1940): 50 000
The war of Chaco for its oil, between Bolivia and Paraguay (1931-1935): 150
000
Victims of the famines and the epidemics in the Indies, in China and
Indo-China (1900-1945), including 6 000 000 for only China : 8 000 000
Massive repressions and the civil war started by Tchang Kaï-Chek in China
(1927-1937) : 1 000 000
The war Japanese agression in China (1931-1941) : 1 000 000
The war of Italian Fascism in Ethiopia : 200 000
The civil war in Spain, started by Franco, supported by Hitler and Mussolini
and facilitated by "non-intervention" : 700 000
The Second World war, military and civil victims, including deportees and
Holocaust : 50 000 000
The French war in Indo-China (1946-1955) : 1 200 000
The American war in Vietnam (1956-1975) : 2 000 000
Repressions colonialists daprès-war in Algeria (1945), Morocco, Tunisia and
Black Africa : 500 000
Repression colonialist in Madagascar : 800 000
The consecutive massacres indo-Pakistani with the partition of lInde
(1948), including 14 million moved people : 300 000
The War in Algeria (1956-1962) : 1 200 000
The Genocide of the anti-communists in Indonesia, after September 1965 : 1
500 000
The war and repressions in Eastern Bengal/Bengladesh (figures dAmnesty
International) : 3 000 000
The four wars israélo-Arabic in the Middle East (1948-1956-1967-1973),
including the deportation of 700 000 Palestinians : 300 000
Repressions anti-Kurdish of Turkey, Iran and lraq : 200 000
The Iran-Iraq war : 600 000
The war in Eastern Timor : 200 000
American direct interventions or by guerrilla or paramilitary groups
interposed in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala, Panama, Dominican Republic,
etc. : 200 000
Repressions in Latin America, supported by the American services : 150 000
Wars in Angola and in Mozambique : 3 000 000
End of the 20th century
The war of the Gulf, direct victims : 200 000
Iraq, victims of the denutrition due to the international blockade : 500 000
Inter--ethnic conflicts in Transcaucasia and Central Asia (1990-1995),
including the war of Chechnya at 1995 : 200 000
Massacres in Somalia, in Liberia, in Rwanda, Burundi, Sierra Leone,
Congo/Zaïre, Congo/Brazzaville, South Africa (Apartheid). Include the
victims of the famines (the Sahel, Somalia, Ethiopia, etc.) : 4 000 000
The civil war in Afghanistan after the fall of the last government : 700 000
Wars and massacres ethniques in ex-Yugoslavia, caused by the disintegration
of the countries and encouraged by the Western powers (1996-1996), including
more than 1 million refugees : 200 000
Between 1990 and 1995 only, the Imperialist wars , an unavoidable part of
the capitalist system, caused in the world 5.500.000 ( In Europe 250 000,
Asia 1 500 000, the Middle East 200 000, Africa 3 500 000).
At 1997, the refugees and exiled amounted 40 million.
Number of Dead by Imperialism/Colonialism : 99 700 000
However these stats are incomplete.
First, because it does not include the recent war on Iraq.
Second, because it is necessary to add the deaths by malnutrition, which are
30 000 000 every year.
Source : ''Le Livre Noir du Capitalisme", Ed. Le Temps des Cerises, Paris,
published at 1998.
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Hermit
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RE: virus: Oscar contenders take a left turn
« Reply #16 on: 2006-03-11 14:43:47 » |
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This list is woefully incomplete. Just a few from memory, Abyssinia (Italians), Kurds (British), Congo (Belgians). Erroneous too. The 500,000 Iraqi probably originates with the infamous interview by Lesley Stahl of Madeleine Albright on 60 minutes in 1996:
[Stahl] "We have heard that a half million children have died, I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And -- and you know, is the price worth it?"
[Albright] "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price -- we think the price is worth it."
Note that Iraq estimated (before the invasion) that the overall cost of the deliberate destruction of civilian infrastructure by the US (a war crime) coupled with sanctions deliberately targeted to cause massive civilian death tolls (genocide) ran to about one-and-a-half million lives.
I recommend cross checking with Rummel's democide pages. He is scrupulously careful about sources and blame.
Quote:I have changed that for Mao's famine, 1958-1962, from zero to 38,000,000. And thus I have had to change the overall democide for the PRC (1928-1987) from 38,702,000 to 76,702,000. Details here.
I have changed my estimate for colonial democide from 870,000 to an additional 50,000,000. Details here.
Thus, the new world total: old total 1900-1999 = 174,000,000. New World total = 174,000,000 + 38,000,000 (new for China) + 50,000 (new for Colonies) = 262,000,000. |
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Kharin
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Re: virus: Oscar contenders take a left turn
« Reply #17 on: 2006-03-12 06:04:52 » |
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>And it is at least debatable, I think, whether more automobiles
>represent a more efficient economy or simply a more rapacious one.
Sorry, still not convinced. Communism was not nobly husbanding its resource=
s
out of disdain for Western rapaciousness, it simply failed to utilise them
effectively. It's not as if communism wasn't rapacious where it could
manage it, given the scale of environmental damage in the former Soviet
Union due to heavy industry. I have greating difficulty accepting that a
system can be lauded for having been too inept to achieve its own ends. A
valid comparison could be made between a capitalist system and some form of
social model that explicitly rejected such aspects of modern technology and
industry - I'm open to suggestions, but I'm not aware that one exists.
Perhaps instead of smoking or car accidents as indicators, life expectancy
is probably the better one:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/life-exp.htm
More generally, I'm rather concerned here that we are talking at
cross-purposes here as it seems to me that you aren't talking about
political or economic systems at all but about resource consumption, the
sort of thing Jared Diamond addressed in Guns, Germs and Steel with
reference to the collapse of civilisations like the Maya and Easter Island.
In that context, an economically inefficient system would inhibit resource
consumption but it still seems a poor comparison.
> >But we shall see. Perhaps you would be kind enough mention
> any conclusions which suggest themselves to you from this data?
Which bit - pet euthanasia, eaten by tigers or abortions? More seriously, i=
f
you did want to take a look at the social evils of capitalism, I'd probably
want to look at the crime statistics as much as those on poverty and
disease, given that it seems reasonable to expect those to be markedly
higher in capitalist states. I'd also want to look at all of those in
comparison with say, communist states on the one hand, extreme free marke=
t
states (China possibly at the moment, the US for earlier examples) and mor=
e
social-democratic states, with Sweden being the classic example.
Alternatively, India would be a good example given that its various states
seem to have tried pretty much every imaginable form of economic model
between them.
The figures on decommunisation in Russia are interesting, though I think
you'd have to take all the former Soviet-bloc states into account - given
that (with the exception of Poland) they all followed the same advice from
the IMF some of them seem to have recovered much more easily than Russia.
>
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?s=3Dfde661ea44e70bc3557f937ccfc5=
e2e
>1&showtopic=3D44797&st=3D0&#entry1292030741<http://www.revolutionaryleft.c=
om/index.php?s=3Dfde661ea44e70bc3557f937ccfc5e2e1&showtopic=3D44797&st=3D0&=
#entry1292030741>
Given that said list blames the evils of capitalism for everything from
European fascism to massacres in countries like Afghanistan that are barely
feudal, I would have to observe that said list does seem an exercise in ba=
d
faith. As a defence, I'm not sure it works; the Soviet system was not
generally attacked on the grounds of imperialist escapades so it does seem
like a straw-man argument. For what it's worth its probably true that the U=
S
has been especially belligerent (more so than the Soviet Union) but that ca=
n
hardly be extrapolated to every capitalist country. Unless Canada and
Holland turn out to have a long list of unconscionable crimes to their name=
.
attached: index.html
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Hermit
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RE: virus: Oscar contenders take a left turn
« Reply #18 on: 2006-03-12 14:09:29 » |
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George Monbiot recently mentioned a few British instigated calamities some of which fit into Blunderov's list, and some of which do not. The worst genocide he raises, even though it falls outside of the lists time-frame, puts Hitler and the Turks to shame for sheer numbers, and was undoubtedly as unabashedly "capitalist" as only the high Victorians could afford to be:
Quote:In his book Late Victorian Holocausts, published in 2001, Mike Davis tells the story of famines that killed between 12 and 29 million Indians. These people were, he demonstrates, murdered by British state policy. When an El Niño drought destituted the farmers of the Deccan plateau in 1876 there was a net surplus of rice and wheat in India. But the viceroy, Lord Lytton, insisted that nothing should prevent its export to England. In 1877 and 1878, at the height of the famine, grain merchants exported a record 6.4m hundredweight of wheat. As the peasants began to starve, officials were ordered "to discourage relief works in every possible way". The Anti-Charitable Contributions Act of 1877 prohibited "at the pain of imprisonment private relief donations that potentially interfered with the market fixing of grain prices". The only relief permitted in most districts was hard labour, from which anyone in an advanced state of starvation was turned away. In the labour camps, the workers were given less food than inmates of Buchenwald. In 1877, monthly mortality in the camps equated to an annual death rate of 94%*.
As millions died, the imperial government launched "a militarised campaign to collect the tax arrears accumulated during the drought". The money, which ruined those who might otherwise have survived the famine, was used by Lytton to fund his war in Afghanistan. Even in places that had produced a crop surplus, the government's export policies, like Stalin's in Ukraine, manufactured hunger. In the north-western provinces, Oud and the Punjab, which had brought in record harvests in the preceeding three years, at least 1.25m died. |
Nothing about this story was unique. The Irish Potato famines also combined brutal ineptness and incompetence with a uniquely English sense of gratitude to their Benevolent British Benefactor, The Anglican Almighty (just listen to those rolling italics!), for reducing the troublesome population of the Emerald Isles. Malcolm Macdonald has written a rather pleasant set of "Historical Romance" sagas dealing with the building of the canals and railways (and the navies who built them) which in my opinion do a good job of capturing the spirit and flavor of the time in a relatively painless and eminently readable format (recommended "World from Rough Stones" and its immediate sequel “The Rich Are With You Always” which includes some interesting and accurate Potato famine references (railways) and "The Silver Highways" (Canals)).
*Which, not unsurprisingly, is about the same as the British, Germans and Russians all managed in their pre-antibiotic "concentration camps" and why factory farming - in the absence of antibiotics - would be unthinkable.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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JD
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RE: virus: Oscar contenders take a left turn
« Reply #19 on: 2006-03-12 14:33:22 » |
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What are you guys comparing?
The entire history of mankind has been one of migration (and its consequential deracination of aboriginals), genocide, rapine and brutality.
We started off comparing Communism (and its derivatives) and Nazism ( ameaningful comparison between two 20th Century political systems).
Now we appear to be broadsiding the west/capitalism/colonialism or at least that is what it looks like.
Is anyone here seriously advocating socialism/communisn, fascism, feudalism, Theocrasy as an alternative to the capitalist liberal democracy model of Europe / USA?
You can make lists all day pointing out the flaws in our system of organising ourselves economically and politically, but unless you are advocating an alternative or positing a supported hypothesis that some other system was superior, I am filing your lists under "Nothing is perfect - evidence".
JD
PS. Hermit, do you remember we discussed this back in 2001?
I posted Jared Diamond's handy list of genocides
---------
l. Over 10,000 thousand Aleuts killed by Russians - Aleutian Islands 1745-70
2. Several thousand Beothuk Indians killed by the French and Micmawas -
Newfoundland 1497-1829
3. Over 1,000,000 American Indians killed by white Setters - US 1620-1890
4. Over 1,000,000 Caribbean Indians killed by Spaniards - West Indies 1992 -
1890
5. Over 1,000,000 Indians killed by Spaniards - Central & South America
1498-1824
6. Over 10,000 Araucarian Indians killed by Argentinians - Argentina 1870's
7. Over 10,000 Protestants killed by Catholics - France 1572
8. Over 10,000 Bushmen & Hottentots (Khoin) killed by Boers and Bantu's -
South Africa 1652-1795
9. Over 100,000 Aborigines killed by white settlers - Australia 1788 - 1928
10.Several thousand Tasmanians killed by white settlers - Tasmania 1800-1876
11. Several thousand Morioris killed by Maoris - Chatham Islands 1835
12. Over 4 Million Jews, gypsies, Poles, Russians killed by Nazis - occupied
Europe 1939 - 45
13. Over 100,000 Serbs killed by Croats - Yugoslavia 1941- 45
14. Over 10,000 Polish officers killed by Russians - Katyn 1940
15. Over 10,000 Jews killed by Ukrainians - Ukraine 1917-20
16. Over 10,000,000 political opponents killed by Russian communists -
Russia 1929-39
17. Over 100,000 ethnic minorities killed by ethnic Russians - Russia 1943 -
46
18. Ovr 1,000,000 Armenians killed by Turks - Armenia 1915
19. Over 10,000 Herero's killed by Germans - Southwest Africa 1904
20. Over 100,000 Hindus, Moslems killed by Moslems, Hindus - India,
Pakistan 1947 - 48
21. Over 10,000 Brazilian Indians killed by Brazilians - Brazil 1957-68
22. Several thousand Ache Indians killed by Paraguayans - Paraguay 1970s
23. Over 10,000 Argentine civilians killed by Argentine army - Argentina
1976-83
24. Over 10,000 Moslems, Christians killed by Christians, Moslems - Lebanon
1975-90
25. Several thousand Ibos killed by North Nigerians - Nigeria 1966
26. Several thousand opponents killed by dictatorship - Equatorial Guinea
1977-79
27. Several thousand opponents killed by Emperor Bokassa - Central African
Republic 1978-79
28. Over 100,000 South Sudanese killed by North Sudanese - Sudan 1955-72
29. Over 100,000 Ugandans killed by Idi Amin - Uganda 1971-79
30. Over 10,000 Tutsi killed by Hutu's - Rwanda 1962-63
31. 100,000 Hutu killed by Tutsi's - Burundi 1972-73
32. Several thousand Arabs killed by Blacks - Zanzibar 1964
33. Several thousand Tamils, Singhalese killed by Sinhalese, Tamils - Sri
Lanka 1985
34. Over 1,000,000 Bengalis killed by Pakistan army - Bangladesh 1971
35. Over 1,000,000 Cambodians killed by the Khmer Rouge - Cambodia 1975-79
36. Over 100,000 communists & Chinese killed by Indonesians - Indonesia
1965-67
37. Tens of thousands of Timorese killed by Indonesians - East Timor
1975-76
This list stops at 1990 therefore does not include the Balkan Wars, Kosovo, the 800,000 Tutsi's murdered by Hutus in 1994, or recent activity in East Timor.
From: http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::VV4Hahst-PhI9-RExh-f2Bp-Xk9WJxgFSGxM
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Hermit
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RE: virus: Oscar contenders take a left turn
« Reply #20 on: 2006-03-12 15:41:02 » |
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[Jonathan Davis] Hermit, do you remember we discussed this back in 2001?
[Hermit] Thanks for the reminder about the previous discussion.
[Jonathan Davis] What are you guys comparing?
[Hermit] I haven't really been participating in what you have characterized as the communist/Nazi discussion, I just noticed some iffy numbers and strange absences going past and commented on them. But this is a difficult area to compare apples with apples, and I am somewhat preoccupied, so was largely abstaining. Let's see what I can do with a largely anecdotal approach.
[Hermit] The Hermitess (with whom I somewhat disagree - IMO the USSR of the 70s and 80s could be just as brutal as the US of today) is of the opinion that in the Soviet Union under communism, people were freer (less concerned about government interference in their lives), individuals much better off (no homeless people, no hungry people, no preponderance of glaringly bad teeth, better clothes, etc) and services more available and more reliable (the nurse visited every six months, dental check-ups every six months, doctors and hospitals when needed, university education for everyone competent, etc.) than the US of today.
[Hermit] I probably know more about life under the Nazis than most here, and why they succeeded as well as they did - despite opposition from "intellectuals" - much like Republicanism). In many ways they were not a terrible government, but the few ways in which they were more than made up for the rest. In many ways, life in Nazi Germany was like a kinder gentler version of the Southern USA of the 1950s - and possibly the USA of today is again heading that way, but much more intelligently and with much better control over thoughts and emotions than Goebbels ever dreamed was possible - making it unnecessary to demonize any particular internal group.
[Hermit] I do think that something has to be better than any current system and am quite certain that none of the old political or economic labels are particularly meaningful anymore. I am also fairly certain that this is very deliberate, and a result of the bipolar political system over here. If I were participating in the discussion, I'd probably be advocating a capitalist economy and socialist society. In other words, the complete reverse of the USA, which to my eyes currently combines the worst features of both, with a socialist economy and capitalist society.
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Oscar contenders take a left turn
« Reply #21 on: 2006-03-13 18:37:25 » |
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[Blunderov]I have become convinced that the entire enquiry is improper.
Marxism and Capitalism are economic systems and I do not think it can be
properly said that economic systems kill people. Political systems on the
other hand, can and do. There does not seem to be any monopoly on deadly
political systems by socialism though.
In the course of my enquiries I came across the concept of "Green" politics.
(Don't know how I missed it before but I have a new enthusiasm now.) The
premise of green politics is that both systems, Communism and Capitalism are
essentially the same. They are both industrialist. They both assume that the
Earth has unlimited resources and both hold untrammelled economic growth to
be the holy grail of "progress".
The Greens claim to transcend left/right politics which they claim, with
some justice IMV, to be irrelevant. Fascinatingly, and Jonathan may be
interested in this if it is not old news already, the movement has it's
origins in conservative philosophy. It has evolved into a fusion of
socialist and free market thought though, and proceeds on the premise that
the resources of the planet are not unlimited and need to be managed
accordingly.
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JD
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RE: virus: Oscar contenders take a left turn
« Reply #22 on: 2006-03-12 18:58:09 » |
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Quote from: Blunderov on 2006-03-13 18:37:25
The Greens claim to transcend left/right politics which they claim, with
some justice IMV, to be irrelevant. Fascinatingly, and Jonathan may be
interested in this if it is not old news already, the movement has it's
origins in conservative philosophy. It has evolved into a fusion of
socialist and free market thought though, and proceeds on the premise that
the resources of the planet are not unlimited and need to be managed
accordingly. |
Thanks a bunch for this B. It is not old news at all and very topical for me right now.
I never thought I would see the day that I would describe myself as a Green, but I am finding myself very rapidly heading in that direction.
I will be looking in to this this week.
Thanks again.
JD
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Kharin
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Re: virus: Oscar contenders take a left turn
« Reply #23 on: 2006-03-13 13:54:08 » |
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> >[Blunderov]I have become convinced that the entire enquiry is improper.
> >Marxism and Capitalism are economic systems and I do not think it can be
> >properly said that economic systems kill people.
I do think comparing fascism and communism as forms of political ideology i=
s
easier, certainly and no, I don't think the economics are relevant in the
sense you address (though comparisons are valid on any other number of
areas). Not entirely sure I accept communism as only being an economic
system - by definition it has to have political control over the entire
economy, with consequent implications for areas (e.g. the state acquires th=
e
need to increase productivity and loses any incentive to protect worker's
rights).
>
> >In the course of my enquiries I came across the concept of "Green"
> politics.
I did wonder if this was where you were going, which was why I cited Jared
Diamond. Here's a sample (please note that this is a contested subject )
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/24/042.html
attached: index.html
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