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Topic: virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you - or a modular simulcrum of your echoes in cyberspace? (Read 1035 times) |
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deadletter-j
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virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you - or a modular simulcrum of your echoes in cyberspace?
« on: 2005-03-21 20:40:26 » |
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In "What the bleep do we know?", it posits that we scan 2 billion
(2,000,000,000) bits of information today, and are only 'aware' of
2,000 of them.
I hypothesize a different perspective: We are completely aware of all
2 billion bits. What we are not necessarily aware of is what to do with
the 2 billion bits. Information Overload.
How to break through information overload? More information. I'm
thinking that much of the information we hear is waiting for more
information in order to understand it - that we need to see how it
connects, and how it connects over time.
Connections - the very thing that the lack of listening would imply is
missing between two speaking human beings.
How can we tap this information?
Well, you can go crazy. A definition for schizophrenic is 'thinking
differently", according to a mental health friend of mine. Bipolar is
to get so wrapped up in the ups and downs of how you are handling
information that you can't stop going up and down - how meta!
ADHD is to parallel process information at all times, and to forget
that other people often prefer, linguistically, that the conversation
stay on one - HEY! Let's go ride our bikes! It's a beautiful day out
and we should all go push the meme of bike riding.
What if we could get a grip on some of the information that is in our
mind? What if we could just get a perspective on what all is in there,
so that we could go looking for it if the occasion demanded it.
People with strong empathy often know how to access their own histories
for stories and experiences through which they can relate to other
humans. What if empathy can be grown the other way, as well, by
attuning people to their shared experiences/memes?
Here's a little story I am stealing from someone on the WELL, in
violation of the YOYOW agreement:
QUOTE
The most effective proponent of white-black unity I ever met was a
family
farmer and former Georgia state chair of the John Birch Society who had
been radicalized by the tractorcade protests over farm conditions in the
early 1980s. I saw him give a speech, atop a pallet of onion crates in
Vidalia, Georgia, to about 250 white farmers. It went something like
this:
"Listen to me, people. I'm always hearing folks talk about nigger this
and
nigger that. Well let me ask you, Has a nigger ever foreclosed you on
your
farm? Ever called in your loan? Denied you credit? Sent the sheriffs
over
to club you senseless and drive you and your family from your home?
"We got to get over this problem, right here and right now. Just down
that
highway over in [I forget the town's name] there's a bunch of Black
farmers fighting foreclosure just like us. And we got something else in
common: we're each fighting on our own, and losing on our own.
"So what makes more sense: losing alone, or winning together?"
I then saw -- I kid you not -- maybe 30 carloads of people race down the
highway to that town, where an ad-hoc alliance was formed with a black
farmers organization and a tractorcade protest organized.
That's why I have infinite hope in "red state" America, if only we start
listening (really listening) to them and working with them.
ENDQUOTE
I think we listen very well, within the limits of whether we get cued
to the information at all. Could creating good listening in others be a
matter of practicing how we cue the system to get ready for our
information? Could speaker take a stronger role in creating good
listening?
This list has cascaded into a relative period of quiet. Prediction: by
returning to paste some more of the ideas I have about ideas - politely
and clearly, with as much humor as possible - several things will
happen.
1) Other topics will begin. This is because there is only so much
self-reflection we can take in a single period.
2) I'll try only to put out as much information as the group is
interested in listening to.
3) I will remind the group of this request:
Please ignore altogether if this set of information - my emails - don't
interest you. Please. A really natural tendency is to get irritated if
you perceive that I am not making sense, and then try to get in a
thrash about it. Instead, consider ignoring, or directing questions at
someone who seems to be participating.
If Walter, or anyone - is listening, and willing to allow me to
continue, may I try to twist your brain in a knot with a mathematical
construct? I believe this will give us a framework for understanding a
fourth dimension to language through which we take in information -
associative. The idea that flashes in your head when you hear an idea.
:-b
On Mar 21, 2005, at 4:43 PM, Walter Watts wrote:
> I'm listening.
>
> Walter
>
> 
>
> Jake Sapiens wrote:
>
>> Just now, I wondered whether anybody ever really listens to anybody
>> else.
>>
>> Love,
>>
>> Rev. Jake
>>
>> Reason, Empathy, and Vision, an Rx For healthy tranhumanist living.
>>
>
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MoEnzyme
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RE: virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you - or a modular simulcrum of your echoes in cyberspace?
« Reply #1 on: 2005-03-22 14:07:04 » |
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[:-b global hijack]: Please ignore altogether if this set of information -
my emails - don't
interest you. Please. A really natural tendency is to get irritated if
you perceive that I am not making sense, and then try to get in a
thrash about it. Instead, consider ignoring, or directing questions at
someone who seems to be participating.
[Jake]: I don't mind your not making sense. Actually in stretches you do
seem to really think, I'm just not on the same channel though I get some
interesting bleed over. I don't really need to thrash you over it,
however, nor do I have any desire to cut you off. Verbal Violence is
unnecessary if interesting.
[:-b global hijack]: If Walter, or anyone - is listening, and willing to
allow me to
continue, may I try to twist your brain in a knot with a mathematical
construct? I believe this will give us a framework for understanding a
fourth dimension to language through which we take in information -
associative. The idea that flashes in your head when you hear an idea.
:-b
[Jake] I'd love to see it.
-Jake
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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deadletter-j
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Re:virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you -
« Reply #2 on: 2005-03-22 14:27:56 » |
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Thanks, Jake!
About that note - I am learning to be pre-emptive on certain topics. My main strategy these days is to acknowledge right up front that, if there is a communication error, it must be mine. Also, to try to reinforce over and over that the system, the organism, the group of people - only need to play if they want to play.
Okay: Turning our brains inside out!
Here's the first piece. I'll go 1d, 2d, 3d just to get started - and a question - What is the best description of 4D, or 5D, that anyone has here?
Starting with the 3 spatial dimensions:
Imagine a circle in one dimension.
sqrt(x^2) = 5
So x is plus or negative 5. On a number line, the two points equally
distant from zero.
The reason I mention our poor brother, Lineland, here, is to give a
'geometric' sense to how I am determining a circle.
I take that lineland circle and give it a spin about a point of
rotation in the xy plane, centered at zero. Now I have all possible
points of distance 5 from the center.
x^2 + y^2 = 25
So we got our bullseye.
I rotate around the x-axis or the y-axis to get my sphere in 3d.
Either way I rotate, I still get the same sphere.
x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = 25
No big deal, math wise.
Since I'm writing this instead of saying it out loud, let me pause for
a second, and offer a second perspective on this same operation.
#2) The point of observation could be moving.
In the first, we could be staring at the circle from a point within
the xy-plane - say the point (0,10).
In the circle, we could be staring at what is actually a sphere from a
point directly above it in space - (0,0,10)
I put this in to give us a tiny bit of different perspective on who is
changing - the sphere, or us.
In the two points, the second dimension is the set of all perspectives
from which we could view the number line and still be in the xy plane.
In the circle, the third dimension is all points which yield us an
orthogonal view of the circle.
Imagine a quarter spinning on a table. if we view from an angle
perpendicular to its spin, we see a circle. Or we could spin the
quarter around different axes, going all the way back to our original
two points on a number line.
The reason I like this is because it helps me get a sense of the
'3d-ness' of the sphere existing before I change perspective to get a
good look at it.
It sort of implies that we are already standing off to the side
somehow when we view the sphere.
If we take the three axes of the sphere and spin them, our perspective
moves all throughout three-space.
Adding perspective involves a) getting our butts off the y-axis (to
see the circle), b) getting our butts off of the z-axis (to see the
sphere) and next, c) getting our butts off of the w-axis
I'm intentionally not using time. I like the movie construct - though
I couldn't visualize five, until I stumbled on this.
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Lise Carlstrom
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Re:virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you -
« Reply #3 on: 2005-04-03 14:04:22 » |
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--- deadletterb <global_hijack@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> About that note - I am learning to be pre-emptive on
> certain topics. My main strategy these days is to
> acknowledge right up front that, if there is a
> communication error, it must be mine.
Excellent strategy! That's 100% accountability.
--Eva
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simul
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Re: virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you -
« Reply #4 on: 2005-04-03 17:15:14 » |
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> Excellent strategy! That's 100%
> accountability.
IMHO, that's “taking responsibility” (a virian virtue).
Accountability is a bit different. Taking account is the process of keeping track of stated commitments and fulfillments, not necessarily your own, in order to facilitate integrity (that the commitments be fulfilled).
Someone who is accountable is a person who is willing to have their commitments tracked by others.
Accountability is the extent to which someone is accountable.
-----Original Message-----
From: Eva-Lise Carlstrom <evalise@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:04:22
To:virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you -
--- deadletterb <global_hijack@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> About that note - I am learning to be pre-emptive on
> certain topics. My main strategy these days is to
> acknowledge right up front that, if there is a
> communication error, it must be mine.
Excellent strategy! That's 100% accountability.
--Eva
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
http://personals.yahoo.com
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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deadletter-j
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Re: virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you -
« Reply #5 on: 2005-04-03 19:48:25 » |
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The Level 3'ers use language slightly differently. For them, '100%
accountability' is the exact same thing as the virian 'taking
responsibility'
Here's a fun joke: go over to Level-3@yahoogroups.com and try to
convince them that the way they use '100% accountability' is 'wrong' -
you will ignite the most HILARIOUS conversations.
I think an operative phrase might be '100% accountability _to_myself_ -
when they say that, they mean that we don't allow ourselves to place
blame or let other people take account _of_us_ - 100% of ourselves is
held to ourselves.
By the way - the same strategy that you here interpreted as '100%
accountability', the SuperBrodie writ as 'teeing up', and wondered what
my reason was - it is slightly more devious than merely accountability
- it is meant to bring the person listening to examine their own
reaction, which gives them 'centipede feet' in regards to it.
:-b
On Apr 3, 2005, at 2:15 PM, Erik Aronesty wrote:
>> Excellent strategy! That's 100%
>> accountability.
>
> IMHO, that's “taking responsibility” (a virian virtue).
>
> Accountability is a bit different. Taking account is the process of
> keeping track of stated commitments and fulfillments, not necessarily
> your own, in order to facilitate integrity (that the commitments be
> fulfilled).
>
> Someone who is accountable is a person who is willing to have their
> commitments tracked by others.
>
> Accountability is the extent to which someone is accountable.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eva-Lise Carlstrom <evalise@yahoo.com>
> Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:04:22
> To:virus@lucifer.com
> Subject: Re:virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I
> listening to you -
>
>
> --- deadletterb <global_hijack@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>
>> About that note - I am learning to be pre-emptive on
>> certain topics. My main strategy these days is to
>> acknowledge right up front that, if there is a
>> communication error, it must be mine.
>
> Excellent strategy! That's 100% accountability.
>
> --Eva
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
> http://personals.yahoo.com
>
> ---
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> <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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Lise Carlstrom
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Re: virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you -
« Reply #6 on: 2005-04-03 20:03:40 » |
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Erik, I agree that it falls under the Virian Virtue
"taking responsibility." It also falls under "100%
accountability" as used by Richard Brodie and other
writers on Level 3 (see memecentral.com for info on
Level 3 philosophy). I apologize for my ambiguity in
using a term with a somewhat specialized meaning that
I knew "deadletterb" to be familiar with, and
forgetting that other readers might interpret it
according to a different schema.
--Eva
--- Erik Aronesty <erik@zoneedit.com> wrote:
> > Excellent strategy! That's 100%
> > accountability.
>
> IMHO, that's “taking responsibility” (a virian
> virtue).
>
> Accountability is a bit different. Taking account is
> the process of keeping track of stated commitments
> and fulfillments, not necessarily your own, in order
> to facilitate integrity (that the commitments be
> fulfilled).
>
> Someone who is accountable is a person who is
> willing to have their commitments tracked by others.
>
> Accountability is the extent to which someone is
> accountable.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eva-Lise Carlstrom <evalise@yahoo.com>
> Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:04:22
> To:virus@lucifer.com
> Subject: Re:virus: If I hear you through a
> technological medium, am I listening to you -
>
>
> --- deadletterb <global_hijack@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>
> > About that note - I am learning to be pre-emptive
> on
> > certain topics. My main strategy these days is to
> > acknowledge right up front that, if there is a
> > communication error, it must be mine.
>
> Excellent strategy! That's 100% accountability.
>
> --Eva
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Re: virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you -
« Reply #7 on: 2005-04-03 20:06:37 » |
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--- global_hijack <global_hijack@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> By the way - the same strategy that you here
> interpreted as '100%
> accountability', the SuperBrodie writ as 'teeing
> up', and wondered what
> my reason was - it is slightly more devious than
> merely accountability
> - it is meant to bring the person listening to
> examine their own
> reaction, which gives them 'centipede feet' in
> regards to it.
I'm not sure whether you are addressing me or Erik
here, so I don't know which strategy you're referring
to--the one you mentioned, of holding yourself
responsible for any misunderstandings, or the one Erik
describes, of keeping track of everyone's promises.
--Eva
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Re: virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you -
« Reply #8 on: 2005-04-03 20:38:21 » |
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Oh! haha, both, actually.
See: here's my post:
'blah blah blah any miscommunication must be mine - sorry if I get this
wrong!'
On the one hand, I am taking 100% accountability.
And on another hand, _the_reason_the_sentence_is_there_ is to 'tee up'
and set a framing of forgiveness for whoever reads the sentences.
I predict the worst, and then I embrace the worst, and then I have a
place to stand if the person/group has a problem - I can agree and say,
"whoops! I must have made an error in phrasing. Does this phrasing make
it clearer?
And then I get _two_ messages out for the price of one. The person gets
to look at _both_ versions and zazz them together (this is as this).
The connecting bit of information is thus communicated _in_between_ two
versions.
Btw, we're having this conversation on a list that is devoted more to
the _ideas_ themselves than to how to say the ideas.
One of (indefinite article, Mickey!) my goals is to try to show with
good evidence that memes spread _in_ the
intent/tone/context/interpretation of a conversation more than in the
ideas themselves.
err... dunno if I said that right - we'll see!
:-b
On Apr 3, 2005, at 5:06 PM, Eva-Lise Carlstrom wrote:
>
> --- global_hijack <global_hijack@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>
>> By the way - the same strategy that you here
>> interpreted as '100%
>> accountability', the SuperBrodie writ as 'teeing
>> up', and wondered what
>> my reason was - it is slightly more devious than
>> merely accountability
>> - it is meant to bring the person listening to
>> examine their own
>> reaction, which gives them 'centipede feet' in
>> regards to it.
>
> I'm not sure whether you are addressing me or Erik
> here, so I don't know which strategy you're referring
> to--the one you mentioned, of holding yourself
> responsible for any misunderstandings, or the one Erik
> describes, of keeping track of everyone's promises.
>
> --Eva
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
> http://personals.yahoo.com
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Re: virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you -
« Reply #9 on: 2005-04-03 22:18:42 » |
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--- global_hijack <global_hijack@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> One of (indefinite article, Mickey!) my goals is to
> try to show with
> good evidence that memes spread _in_ the
> intent/tone/context/interpretation of a conversation
> more than in the
> ideas themselves.
Well, sure they do. If you think I'm a jerk, for
example, you're less likely to accept and spread my
memes. Whereas if I come off to you as friendly and
trustworthy, my memes have a much better chance.
--Eva,
who's been reading this list for about ten years, but
notes that Mickey does not.
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Re: virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you -
« Reply #10 on: 2005-04-03 23:48:08 » |
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Actually, evidence seems to point differently. Memes don't give a shit
about good or bad. They don't give a shit about like or dislike. We do
not, at this time, have a memetics _movement_ which consciously spreads
memes. Though I hope that we can build one and take over the entire
planet, all arm in arm together. (peanut butter! {that means - I'll
stop there before I go on too long})
When dads hit their kids, the kids go and hit their little brother, or
some animal. It's very well documented. That's the transmission of a
meme. When the activists go out to the WTO and we all sit in the
streets bored - nada. And we like each other and felt friendly and
trustworthy. Along come the cops, they teargas everybody and get caught
on camera pepper spraying innocent civilians sitting in cars in a gas
station, and suddenly we have a brewhaha! Martin Luther King can speech
all he wants. Until he's speeching to 600,000 who show up - taking
action - that's when the meme spreads.
Action is the language of memes. Any action root hacks conversation to
be _conversation_about_ the action.
Conversation is the way in which we attach meaning to actions. What's
interesting is getting people to notice that they are having
conversation _about_ some _thing_. The thing is a meme.
Here's a perfect example. Let's suppose I met a person who had never,
ever, ever heard of war, been touched by war, or even had any concept.
This lad lives in a veritable garden of eden.
How would I explain the concept of war to this beautiful soul?
:-b
and ps. - how would I demonstrate the concept of information warfare?
On Apr 3, 2005, at 7:18 PM, Eva-Lise Carlstrom wrote:
>
> --- global_hijack <global_hijack@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>
>> One of (indefinite article, Mickey!) my goals is to
>> try to show with
>> good evidence that memes spread _in_ the
>> intent/tone/context/interpretation of a conversation
>> more than in the
>> ideas themselves.
>
> Well, sure they do. If you think I'm a jerk, for
> example, you're less likely to accept and spread my
> memes. Whereas if I come off to you as friendly and
> trustworthy, my memes have a much better chance.
>
> --Eva,
> who's been reading this list for about ten years, but
> notes that Mickey does not.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
> http://personals.yahoo.com
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Re: virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you -
« Reply #11 on: 2005-04-04 09:17:52 » |
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> build one and take over the entire
>. planet, all arm in arm together
> . (peanut butter! {that means - I'll
>. stop there before I go on too
> long})
Funny, my wife and I use “wheat grass” or “chlorophyll” instead of peanut butter to mean “out of context word to interrupt meme spew”.
Food words cut to the physical as opposed to the semantic.
Food, in general, interrupts memetic flow.
Nearly all cults request that people don't eat during services or lectures.
And every major religion has a period of fasting.
Being without food makes a person more memetically receptive.
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Re: virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you -
« Reply #12 on: 2005-04-04 17:28:21 » |
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...sort of like the way Walter says, "ah, kibbles"! to express frustration?
...say, if everyone gets the Discovery channel, there is a program currently
running(?) called "search for the ultimate survivor" that i HIGHLY
reccommend! it is a very up-to-date, two hour investigation of prehistoric
human and proto-human evolution. a beautiful and very well done effort!
DrSebby.
"Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Erik Aronesty" <erik@zoneedit.com>
Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com
To: "Church of Virus" <virus@lucifer.com>
Subject: Re: virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I
listening to you -
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:17:52 +0000 GMT
> build one and take over the entire
>. planet, all arm in arm together
> . (peanut butter! {that means - I'll
>. stop there before I go on too
> long})
Funny, my wife and I use “wheat grass” or “chlorophyll” instead of peanut
butter to mean “out of context word to interrupt meme spew”.
Food words cut to the physical as opposed to the semantic.
Food, in general, interrupts memetic flow.
Nearly all cults request that people don't eat during services or lectures.
And every major religion has a period of fasting.
Being without food makes a person more memetically receptive.
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"courage and shuffle the cards..."
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simul
Adept
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I am a lama.
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Re: virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you -
« Reply #13 on: 2005-04-07 15:35:38 » |
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Ah. See now, I would disagree that taking 100% accountability, as you describe below, is somehow virtuous.
Allowing oneself to be held accountable (by others) to one's stated commitments *is* a virtue.
“Retaining 100% accountability” means that you do all your own accounting. This seems virtuous (self punishement, self reward), but it is inherently unsustainable.
Any complex real entity, system, etc. which is not held externally accountable will eventual self-corrupt.
If such an entity fails to achieve or fulfill goals, all it has to do is internalize a new goalset that justifies its current behavior and reaccount according to the new goalset. Or, failing that, it could issue self-punishment, but any such punishments would soon become habits... pathalogically so.
------Original Message------
From: global_hijack
Sender: owner-virus@lucifer.com
To: Church of Virus
ReplyTo: Church of Virus
Sent: Apr 3, 2005 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: virus: If I hear you through a technological medium, am I listening to you -
The Level 3'ers use language slightly differently. For them, '100%
accountability' is the exact same thing as the virian 'taking
responsibility'
Here's a fun joke: go over to Level-3@yahoogroups.com and try to
convince them that the way they use '100% accountability' is 'wrong' -
you will ignite the most HILARIOUS conversations.
I think an operative phrase might be '100% accountability _to_myself_ -
when they say that, they mean that we don't allow ourselves to place
blame or let other people take account _of_us_ - 100% of ourselves is
held to ourselves.
By the way - the same strategy that you here interpreted as '100%
accountability', the SuperBrodie writ as 'teeing up', and wondered what
my reason was - it is slightly more devious than merely accountability
- it is meant to bring the person listening to examine their own
reaction, which gives them 'centipede feet' in regards to it.
:-b
On Apr 3, 2005, at 2:15 PM, Erik Aronesty wrote:
>> Excellent strategy! That's 100%
>> accountability.
>
> IMHO, that's “taking responsibility” (a virian virtue).
>
> Accountability is a bit different. Taking account is the process of
> keeping track of stated commitments and fulfillments, not necessarily
> your own, in order to facilitate integrity (that the commitments be
> fulfilled).
>
> Someone who is accountable is a person who is willing to have their
> commitments tracked by others.
>
> Accountability is the extent to whi
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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