logo Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register.
2024-05-03 13:21:00 CoV Wiki
Learn more about the Church of Virus
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Read the first edition of the Ideohazard

  Church of Virus BBS
  Mailing List
  Virus 2005
  corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.		 « previous next »
Pages: [1] Reply Notify of replies Send the topic Print 
   Author  Topic: corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.  (Read 962 times)
Mermaid
Archon
****

Posts: 770
Reputation: 8.44
Rate Mermaid



Bite me!

View Profile
corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.
« on: 2005-01-16 09:21:53 »		 Reply with quote
corporations in the us are non citizens that are rich and powerful with no voting rights, but are represented by voting citizens operating behind the corporate veil. can corporations be termed as 'economic robots'. we often argue for rights for artificial intelligence/robots. this assumes free will. arent corporations artificial entities with no free will enjoying constitutional protection?

thoughts?
Report to moderator   Logged
David Lucifer
Archon
*****

Posts: 2642
Reputation: 8.94
Rate David Lucifer



Enlighten me.

View Profile WWW E-Mail
Re:corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.
« Reply #1 on: 2005-01-19 10:23:22 »		 Reply with quote

Quote from: Mermaid on 2005-01-16 09:21:53   

corporations in the us are non citizens that are rich and powerful with no voting rights, but are represented by voting citizens operating behind the corporate veil. can corporations be termed as 'economic robots'. we often argue for rights for artificial intelligence/robots. this assumes free will. arent corporations artificial entities with no free will enjoying constitutional protection?

thoughts?

Corporations do have free will by some definitions including mine: An agent has free will to the extent that its behaviour is determined by internal forces as opposed to external forces. I think my definition captures most if not all the intuitive notions we associate with having free will while avoiding the problems of being reconciled with determinism and materialism.

OTOH, my definition provides no clear delineation on what sorts of entities should enjoy constitutional protection, as all living organisms have free will to some extent. Perhaps if there was a way to quantify free will on a normalized scale you could set a minimal limit for certain sets of rights (e.g. free will must be greater than 0.748 in order to vote).
Report to moderator   Logged
Mermaid
Archon
****

Posts: 770
Reputation: 8.44
Rate Mermaid



Bite me!

View Profile
Re:corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.
« Reply #2 on: 2005-01-19 11:03:00 »		 Reply with quote
but if the corporation is represented by its shareholders and its decisions are motivated by financial rewards for the representatives...does it still have free will?
Report to moderator   Logged
David Lucifer
Archon
*****

Posts: 2642
Reputation: 8.94
Rate David Lucifer



Enlighten me.

View Profile WWW E-Mail
Re:corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.
« Reply #3 on: 2005-01-19 11:08:33 »		 Reply with quote

Quote from: Mermaid on 2005-01-19 11:03:00   

but if the corporation is represented by its shareholders and its decisions are motivated by financial rewards for the representatives...does it still have free will?

Depends on how you define "free will". By my definition, it does because the corporations behaviour is determined to some extent by internal forces (the choices of the employees, management, board of directors and shareholders) as opposed to external forces (the market, the government, the law, etc).
Report to moderator   Logged
Mermaid
Archon
****

Posts: 770
Reputation: 8.44
Rate Mermaid



Bite me!

View Profile
Re:corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.
« Reply #4 on: 2005-01-19 11:14:01 »		 Reply with quote
if i start a company and i run the company to achieve my ends, i would be the 'internal force', acc to you...yes? then my company's 'free will' is subordinated to my freewill..no?

on a slightly parallel line..if i had a child and raised the child to adopt my values, opinions etc and essentially keeping the child ignorant of the fact that it is capable of free will, then does the child possess free will.

a child may have free will if it discovers that the parents havent exposed it to the choice. an artificial entity has no such choice.
Report to moderator   Logged
David Lucifer
Archon
*****

Posts: 2642
Reputation: 8.94
Rate David Lucifer



Enlighten me.

View Profile WWW E-Mail
Re:corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.
« Reply #5 on: 2005-01-19 11:23:25 »		 Reply with quote

Quote from: Mermaid on 2005-01-19 11:14:01   

if i start a company and i run the company to achieve my ends, i would be the 'internal force', acc to you...yes? then my company's 'free will' is subordinated to my freewill..no?

In the case where you are the only person in the company, then yes, the company's free will is pretty much identical to yours.


Quote:

on a slightly parallel line..if i had a child and raised the child to adopt my values, opinions etc and essentially keeping the child ignorant of the fact that it is capable of free will, then does the child possess free will.

Yes, because even then you don't control every aspect of your child's behaviour.


Quote:

a child may have free will if it discovers that the parents havent exposed it to the choice. an artificial entity has no such choice.

A child has free will even if it never learns it does. Agents have free will even if they are too simple to have any such concept, even fish and insects.

I get the impression that you are using some other definition of free will. What's yours?
Report to moderator   Logged
simul
Adept
****

Gender: Male
Posts: 614
Reputation: 7.87
Rate simul



I am a lama.
simultaneous zoneediterik
View Profile WWW
Re: virus: Re:corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.
« Reply #6 on: 2005-01-19 12:32:31 »		 Reply with quote
If corporations are entities, then the human race is an entity.  Likewise, “all life on earth” can be thought of as a singular, internally driven entity.
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
Report to moderator   Logged
First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
tim.pozza@sympa...
Neophyte
*

Posts: 2
Reputation: 0.00



I have never logged in.

View Profile E-Mail
RE: virus: Re:corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.
« Reply #7 on: 2005-01-19 13:37:33 »		 Reply with quote
[[ author reputation (0.00) beneath threshold (3)... display message ]]
Report to moderator   Logged
Mermaid
Archon
****

Posts: 770
Reputation: 8.44
Rate Mermaid



Bite me!

View Profile
Re:corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.
« Reply #8 on: 2005-01-19 18:21:04 »		 Reply with quote
for context, i would like to post this link to explain the concept of 'corporate personhood'.

Corporate personhood is a term used to describe the legal fiction used within United States law that a corporation has a limited number or subset of the same constitutional rights as does a human being. The choice of the word "person" in "personhood" arises from the way the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution was worded and from earlier legal usage of the word "person."

Corporations as legal entities have always been able to perform commercial actitivies similar to the activities which a person acting as a sole proprietor would be able to do such as entering into contracts or owning property. Therefore corporations have always had some limited amount of "personhood" which was necessary in order for corporations to conduct business while shielding stockholders from financial risk to personal assets which were not invested in the corporation.

I guess I wasnt being clear about my motivations.

This is the question: Should corporate personhood, the concept, be abolished?
« Last Edit: 2005-01-20 00:35:14 by David Lucifer » Report to moderator   Logged
Blunderov
Archon
*****

Gender: Male
Posts: 3160
Reputation: 8.90
Rate Blunderov



"We think in generalities, we live in details"

View Profile WWW E-Mail
RE: virus: Re:corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.
« Reply #9 on: 2005-01-19 19:07:19 »		 Reply with quote
[Blunderov] I agree, although I think Lucifer's definition is the most
useful one I've heard.

It strikes me that the debate about free-will is a very good example of
what Wittgenstein meant when he said that philosophy is largely about
deconstructing the semantic knots with which we entangle ourselves.

Is there any such thing as will-will? Or free-free? Or will-free? I
suppose there is if we say there is! But if we decide not to bother,
then it doesn't matter one jot or tittle.

Best Regards.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf
Of tim.pozza@sympatico.ca
Sent: 19 January 2005 08:38 PM
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: Re:corporate personhood, constitutional rights and
free will.

Free will does not exist as other than subordination to collectives.

Since I have been lurking here...

Free will exists as the subordination to other collectives. There is no
such
thing as free will. Free will as a concept is used interchangeably with
choice as a way of incorrectly categorizing this concept people find so
hard
to grasp (apparently because they don't like working for other people or

giving anyone credit for having shaped them in some way). The arguments
below are simply variations on how much choice is limited by someone
else
and thus are merely complaints or dreams about control issues. To me the

arguments are far too sweeping in the contex of power interplay to be
about
free will. My understanding of the universe is one of constant
consumption
with free will implemented as cooperation to succeed. The chemical
collective, feeling no pain, can sacrifice its members in order to allow

continued existence. Free will is exercised by virtue of how close to
nutrients and other conditions supporting life you are. Of course a
little
padding from other 'individuals' doesn't hurt either...

Ask yourself. If there were only one human being on the planet would
that
individual have free will?

Doubtless you've already subtracted cancer and food. In the popular
consciousness I've got a tsunami that says no.




---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
Report to moderator   Logged
Blunderov
Archon
*****

Gender: Male
Posts: 3160
Reputation: 8.90
Rate Blunderov



"We think in generalities, we live in details"

View Profile WWW E-Mail
RE: virus: Re:corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.
« Reply #10 on: 2005-01-20 02:58:12 »		 Reply with quote
[quote from: Mermaid on 2005-01-16 at 07:21:53]
corporations in the us are non citizens that are rich and powerful with
no voting rights, but are represented by voting citizens operating
behind the corporate veil. can corporations be termed as 'economic
robots'. we often argue for rights for artificial intelligence/robots.
this assumes free will. arent corporations artificial entities with no
free will enjoying constitutional protection?

thoughts?

[Blunderov] I am similarly chary. I'm not too sure that it is wise to
award human rights (even by proxy) to an entity that displays no
conception of human concerns about social conscience, empathy and
justice, whether it has a free will or not.

Synchronicity will out Today's philosophical quote:

"To found a great empire for the sole purpose of rising up a people of
customers may at first sight appear a project fit only for a nation of
shopkeepers. It is, however, a project altogether unfit for a nation of
shopkeepers; but extremely fit for a nation whose Government is
influenced by shopkeepers." (Adam Smith--Wealth of Nations)

Best Regards.


---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
Report to moderator   Logged
David Lucifer
Archon
*****

Posts: 2642
Reputation: 8.94
Rate David Lucifer



Enlighten me.

View Profile WWW E-Mail
RE: virus: Re:corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.
« Reply #11 on: 2005-01-21 19:06:29 »		 Reply with quote
[Blunderov] I am similarly chary. I'm not too sure that it is wise to
award human rights (even by proxy) to an entity that displays no
conception of human concerns about social conscience, empathy and
justice, whether it has a free will or not.

[Lucifer] Strictly speaking I would have to agree. But if you are talking about corporations, you are describing at best only some of them (and the same could be said about some humans).
Report to moderator   Logged
tim.pozza@sympa...
Neophyte
*

Posts: 2
Reputation: 0.00



I have never logged in.

View Profile E-Mail
Re: virus: Re:corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.
« Reply #12 on: 2005-01-22 01:48:01 »		 Reply with quote
[[ author reputation (0.00) beneath threshold (3)... display message ]]
Report to moderator   Logged
Blunderov
Archon
*****

Gender: Male
Posts: 3160
Reputation: 8.90
Rate Blunderov



"We think in generalities, we live in details"

View Profile WWW E-Mail
RE: virus: Re:corporate personhood, constitutional rights and free will.
« Reply #13 on: 2005-01-22 11:24:59 »		 Reply with quote
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf
Of David Lucifer

[Blunderov] I am similarly chary. I'm not too sure that it is wise to
award human rights (even by proxy) to an entity that displays no
conception of human concerns about social conscience, empathy and
justice, whether it has a free will or not.

[Lucifer] Strictly speaking I would have to agree. But if you are
talking about corporations, you are describing at best only some of them
(and the same could be said about some humans).

[Blunderov1] Fair point. But isn't it interesting how nefarious persons
often find it prudent to use a corporate shield for their activities?

So much so that it is often considered necessary to enact rather
illiberal legislation in order to counteract this strategy. Here (RSA)
we have the "Asset forfeiture unit" which has the laudable objective of
depriving criminals of the fruits of their crimes. The difficulty, IMV,
is that it amounts to punishing persons before they have been found
guilty. Furthermore it deprives them of the resources they may require
to defend themselves against the charges which they have to face.

There have been a number of instances where persons have been found not
guilty (eventually) and have had their assets (at least most of them,
and once again, eventually) restored to them.

Best Regards.

 




---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
Report to moderator   Logged
Pages: [1] Reply Notify of replies Send the topic Print 
Jump to:


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Church of Virus BBS | Powered by YaBB SE
© 2001-2002, YaBB SE Dev Team. All Rights Reserved.
Please support the CoV. 		Valid HTML 4.01! Valid CSS! RSS feed