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MoEnzyme
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Virtual Dominion Theory
« on: 2011-03-13 16:44:24 »
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Chatlog from today's Scheduled Chat re: Virtual Dominion Theory
http://www.churchofvirus.org/bbs/index.php?board=;action=chatlog2;channel=%23virus;date=2011-03-13;time=11:;start=0;max=300

11:00:41 Lucifer   Welcome to the Virus weekly chat!
11:00:46 Lucifer   first one in almost 4 years
11:00:57 Sat      * Sat appluads politely
11:00:57 Lucifer   today's topic was suggested by Sat
11:01:04 Lucifer   Dominion Theory
11:01:29 Sat      the 4 year isn't completely accurate. we used to chat in SL
11:02:12 Lucifer   ok, 4 years since the last archived chat
11:02:54 Lucifer   which also took place in SL
11:02:58 Sat      So, ya. Anyhow. Back in the day Lucifer and I were speculating about virtual worlds post-singularity, and we came up with dominion theory.
11:03:16 Lucifer   so what is the basic idea?
11:03:34 Lucifer   I envision a future that contains a multitude of virtual worlds
11:04:00 Lucifer   Everyone that is online will have the ability to create their own world with their own rules
11:04:02 MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme has returned
11:04:12 Sat      I seem to remember the essence being that one could create worlds which for all purposes are real, and each world would have it's own rules.
11:04:23 Lucifer   * Lucifer nods
11:04:26 Lucifer   wb Mo
11:04:32 Sat      Within those worlds one would be bound by the rules, etc.
11:04:52 Sat      I also remember thinking of a dominion as an extension of one's own psyche, in a sense
11:05:28 Lucifer   Dominions will compete for people to visit
11:05:34 MoEnzyme   Perhaps then we should call it "virtural cominion theory", to distinguish it from dominionism.
11:05:39 Sat      For me the idea is inspired by the LaVeyan idea of total environments and Localroger's PI novel.
11:05:43 Lucifer   but visitors will have to play be rules or be banished
11:06:17 Lucifer   You can call it what you like, Mo
11:06:18 MoEnzyme   "virtual dominion theory" even.
11:06:21 Sat      and rules could include things like once you enter you cannot leave "alive."
11:06:36 Lucifer   There are dozens of uses of "dominion"
11:06:39 MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme likes "virtual dominion theory"
11:07:06 Sat      The interesting thing about dominion theory is how it could be used to illustrate relativity in ethics
11:07:16 Lucifer   * Lucifer nods
11:07:32 Sat      well that and being the god of a reality.
11:07:33 Lucifer   Dominions allow like-minded people to associate
11:07:39 MoEnzyme   The Church of Virus BBS is a kind of dominion then, right?
11:07:44 Sat      * Sat nods
11:07:45 MoEnzyme   Lucifer's dominion even.
11:07:49 Sat      a low res dominion
11:08:00 Lucifer   yes, it could be considered a proto-dominion
11:08:01 MoEnzyme   Because he can banish people who spam his BBS.
11:08:07 Lucifer   like almost any online community
11:08:35 Lucifer   so one way to think about it is what is the future of online communities given current trends
11:08:48 Sat      One way to think of Dominions as we envisioned them is online communities with such advanced tech that they become alternate realities.
11:08:55 MoEnzyme   I mean of course Lucifer is just one of many Archons whom he may consult with, but unltimately he is the administrator so it's his dominion.
11:09:11 Lucifer   and I think current trends point to VRs like SecondLife and MMORPGs
11:09:43 MoEnzyme   Well, is there any reason that it has to be limited to VRs like these?
11:09:55 Sat      No actually not.
11:10:12 MoEnzyme   Couldn't any online social networking site be a dominion?
11:10:19 MoEnzyme   Like Facebook for example.
11:10:21 Sat      Fetishistic role play could be another type of primative dominion manifestation
11:10:41 Lucifer   MoEnzyme, I think that would dilute the concept
11:11:04 Sat      The analogy is apt. Participants agree on rules beforehand, and push the envelope within them.
11:11:14 MoEnzyme   hmmm, okay so that's a bit different from what Sat said.
11:11:30 Sat      The rules may or may not match very well with "normal" ethics and behaviour.
11:11:49 MoEnzyme   So Church of Virus is a dominion and Facebook isn't. Is that the line?
11:11:49 Lucifer   right, you could dilute it further to include football games
11:11:59 Sat      But within the Dominion it is consistent.
11:12:12 Lucifer   I would not include CoV as it is today
11:12:21 Sat      The CoV could be considered a proto-dominion like a biological virus is an organism.
11:12:22 MoEnzyme   Why not the CoV?
11:12:28 Lucifer   CoV is not a VR
11:12:46 MoEnzyme   Ah, so it DOES have to be a Virtual Reality.
11:13:05 MoEnzyme   off line football games, and BDSM are not Virtual.
11:13:05 Sat      I'd say the tech is irrelevant.
11:13:33 Sat      It has to be a reality, whether it's virtual, advanced tech, or a ritual, or roleplay.
11:13:34 Lucifer   I'm willing to consider other definitions
11:14:16 Sat      Obviously the extension of the idea is to when tech is so advanced that virtual worlds and real worlds aren't different in a meaningful way
11:14:19 MoEnzyme   what about a text based VR . . . like the old MUUDs?
11:14:31 Lucifer   but I'm reluctant to expand the definition so much it becomes meaningless
11:14:41 Sat      well all those things are like analogies MO.
11:14:56 Sat      Imagine for a moment that what we think of as reality is in fact a sim.
11:15:07 Sat      We are in the Universe Dominion
11:15:19 Lucifer   using my current definition there are no dominions yet
11:15:28 Sat      Within this Dominion there are natural laws we must obey.
11:15:45 MoEnzyme   Oh OK. So a Second Life sim wouldn't count either.
11:16:10 Sat      Lucifer and I posit a time in the future where anyone could create a sim that would be for all intents and purposes an alternate reality
11:16:20 Lucifer   * Lucifer nods
11:16:23 Sat      that would be a Dominion
11:16:24 MoEnzyme   So perhaps we can view the CoV BBS and Facebook as proto-dominions since there are no dominions yet.
11:16:39 MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme nods
11:17:01 Sat      Well perhaps not-proto Dominions, but maybe having elements of dominion.
11:17:48 Sat      Imagine what world you would create if you were God.
11:17:59 MoEnzyme   Okay, so still we can use social networking sites, the CoV BBS, and Second Life as proto-dominions in order to theorize about how future dominions will work since there aren't any real dominions yet.
11:18:00 Sat      That world would be your dominion.
11:18:08 Sat      * Sat nods
11:18:12 MoEnzyme   or at least no real virtual dominions yet.
11:18:52 MoEnzyme   Okay that makes some since.
11:18:55 Sat      Yes and to that I would also add examples of sexual roleplay and satanic ritual.
11:19:03 Lucifer   Would you want to create a dominion that attracted a large number of visitors?
11:19:33 Sat      Personally no.
11:19:36 MoEnzyme   I guess it depend on what you wanted to do with your dominion. What counts as a large number of visitors?
11:19:49 Lucifer   I'm guessing we will see large variation in accessibility as well
11:20:00 Sat      My dominion would act more like a strange attractor for like minded entities.
11:20:10 Lucifer   lots of mainstream dominions, but many more niche ones
11:20:32 Sat      and a lot of downright scary ones depending on one's own mind
11:20:54 Sat      There will be pedo play dominions, etc.
11:21:03 Lucifer      * Lucifer nods
11:21:21 Lucifer   So will some types of dominions be illegal?
11:21:36 Sat      By today's primative standards yes.
11:21:51 Lucifer   I suggest that no dominions should be illegal because visiting is always voluntary
11:21:55 MoEnzyme   well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar's_number sets a typical person's community of influence at about 150 individuals.
11:21:56 Sat      But I think when dominions are possible legality will be moot.
11:22:06 Sat      exactly Lucifer
11:22:21 MoEnzyme   So perhaps that might have some bearing on what social size you will want your dominion to hold.
11:22:39 Sat      That number Mo, is for primative meatspace.
11:22:54 Sat      In todays online communities one has far greater influence
11:23:14 Lucifer   agreed, there are already online communities with far greater numbers
11:23:26 MoEnzyme   Sat, true, but it relates to the capacity of the human neocortex to handle social relations whether they are IRL or virtual.
11:23:27 Sat      But I think the numbers are irrelevant, unless one is into competing in that manner.
11:23:49 Sat      By the time we have dominion we will have shed our meat.
11:23:50 MoEnzyme   Not so much about meatspace as it is about cognitive capacity.
11:24:05 MoEnzyme   Sat, including our brains?
11:24:07 Lucifer   So I've been assuming that visiting a dominion is always voluntary, it that a safe assumption?
11:24:14 Sat      We will be cyber-organisms.
11:24:25 Sat      That's how I envision it Lucifer.
11:24:50 Sat      I also envision that you won't be able to get into just any dominion based on desire to be there.
11:25:01 Sat      Your very mind would have to match the dominion.
11:25:05 MoEnzyme   Well, if we have to wait until we are completely uploaded into computers and no longer even have brains anymore, that could be a bit too far out to even theorize about.
11:25:32 Lucifer   I agree with Sat about matching
11:25:41 Lucifer   I disagree with Sat about needing to shed our meat first
11:26:14 MoEnzyme   Okay so Lucifer and I are in agreement that it should at least be based on our current neural capacity somehow.
11:26:26 MoEnzyme   at least in terms of social network sizes.
11:26:39 Lucifer   I think we will have very convincing VR before mind-uploading
11:26:41 Sat      I guess my idea of Dominions is taken to an extreme. I envision them as choosing realities and being bound by that choice.
11:27:09 MoEnzyme   I agree with that last comment, Lucifer.
11:27:27 Sat      Like assuming our current reality is a Dominion we chose to play in and we are bound to do so until we 'die.'
11:28:03 Lucifer   if we do get mind-uploading tech, then dominions will maybe be inevitable
11:28:20 MoEnzyme   Certainly convincing VR may allow for some very large communities, however just like IRL communities they will have to work withing the cognitive capacities of the human brain.
11:28:25 Sat      Assume for a moment you are actually a being of immense god-like power. Perhaps it would be fun to play at being mortal.
11:28:35 MoEnzyme   Hence my invoking Dunbars number http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar's_number
11:28:46 Sat      So you sin off a thread to live the life you live now. fully bound by the rules of this game.
11:29:03 Sat      That's an example of one Dominion.
11:29:37 MoEnzyme   Certainly the "God" of the dominion may have a dominion with thousands or even millions of people within the dominion, but there is no way for that God to have a personal relationship with everyone in that dominion.
11:29:52 Lucifer   I think the idea of God choosing to live a mortal life is a common trope in fiction and mythology
11:29:53 Sat      Well Mo. Our reality has 6 billion or so players
11:30:00 MoEnzyme   Perhaps he/she will delegate some, of course, but there are social limits.
11:30:10 Sat      we don't have to know all the players in a dominion to play within it.
11:30:24 MoEnzyme   Sat, yes, true, but there is no one dominion master god thingy over all 6 billion people.
11:30:29 MoEnzyme   actually 7 billion now.
11:30:43 Sat      well what if the universe itself is the dominion master
11:30:50 Sat      the reality enforces the rules
11:30:57 MoEnzyme   Right, Sat. It's just a question of the social tastes of the dominion players.
11:32:20 Lucifer   I think we can assume there will be wide variances in preferences that are accomodated by equally wide variances in dominions
11:32:30 Sat      * Sat nods
11:32:41 Lucifer   Can we make any generalizations that are more specific?
11:32:57 Sat      In fact Dominions could be self organizing realities based on mind's affinities.
11:33:04 Sat      Shared tastes or beliefs
11:33:08 Lucifer   What will all dominions have in common? I suggested that all will have voluntary membership.
11:33:53 MoEnzyme   Right, that would be different from the dominion of the entire world (7billion) since we don't have any choice of a different world.
11:33:57 Sat      My Dominion might be like the Hotel California... you can check in any time you like, but you can never leave.
11:33:59 Sat      * Sat grins
11:34:00 Lucifer   * Lucifer nods
11:34:33 Lucifer   No dominions will allow visitors to break the rules
11:34:34 MoEnzyme   Sat, could you try it out before deciding to join?
11:34:55 MoEnzyme   Lucifers question is similar to my mine.
11:35:00 Sat      Probably not Mo.
11:35:19 Lucifer   Or maybe rule-breaking will have automatic consequences
11:35:22 MoEnzyme   Okay, so Sat will probably have a smaller dominion than many.
11:35:28 Sat      * Sat grins
11:35:41 Sat      I'd have many dominions as I had selves
11:36:08 Sat      some dominions would be shared with others, like a LuciSat dominion based on the shared intersection of our minds
11:36:19 Lucifer   Some rules will be enforced like physics (no choice in the matter), some by convention and/or consequences
11:37:02 MoEnzyme   How many players does Sat envision in his dominion?
11:37:15 Sat      I think it's interesting to use the Universe as a Dominion example. If I assume it is I don't have to assume all humans are real.
11:37:39 Sat      This could in fact be my Dominion, and maybe 150 players are real
11:37:41 Lucifer   I would expect it to be impossible to harm others in many if not most dominions
11:37:46 Sat      the rest could be NPCs.
11:37:51 MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme predicts Sat's dominion size at less than 200
11:38:16 MoEnzyme   Ah okay. That sounds like a workable Sat universe.
11:39:13 Lucifer   Let's use "friend" to mean someone you have a friendly relationship with
11:39:15 MoEnzyme   Could people take a vacation from your dominion? Like check out for a week only?
11:39:19 Sat      Lucifer. I'm thinking we will naturally gravitate to and participate in the Dominions most suited to our minds.
11:39:30 Lucifer   How many friends do you really want given that you have finite attention?
11:39:38 Sat      Explicit contractual agreements would be uneeded in such a case
11:40:16 Sat      the dominions would only have to allow those in who have mind signatures suited to the dominion.
11:40:54 Lucifer   I'll have to think about "mind signatures"
11:41:03 Sat      your mind print?
11:41:14 Sat      your OS!
11:41:16 Sat      heh
11:41:30 MoEnzyme   Well I would think that if you wanted to attract people to your dominion especially if they can't check out, you might want to have some contractual understandings ahead of time before they join. Like a pre-nuptial agreement for a metaphorical example.
11:41:49 Lucifer   I don't think you can predict future behavior by examining the code
11:41:57 Sat      Lucifer as software only capable of running on platorms which are designed to work for him.
11:42:06 Lucifer   google: Turing halting problem
11:42:07 googlebot   googling for Turing halting problem
11:42:07 googlebothttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem
11:43:03 Sat      Well behaviourly it would work like life now. You aren't very likely to go to a christian church and want to stay there are you?
11:43:18 Sat      But there are a lot of christian minds that do.
11:43:18 Lucifer   true
11:43:59 Lucifer   So is the "mind signature" just a distillation of previous choices?
11:44:07 Sat      if you went to the church out of curiosity and there was a full disclosure before you entered...
11:44:29 Sat      stating that you could be forced to stay until the dominion master chose to release you...
11:44:34 Sat      would you eneter?
11:44:42 MoEnzyme   probably not.
11:45:00 MoEnzyme   but some people might.
11:45:03 Lucifer   Well I don't think I could ever be forced to stay
11:45:36 Sat      I posit dominions where you can be forced to stay, once you agree to the rules
11:45:51 Sat      because the dominion is in effect it's own ethical universe
11:46:00 Sat      once you enter you are bound by the rules
11:46:17 Lucifer   But you can always disconnect
11:46:18 MoEnzyme   What if the the cominion master is an Artificial Intelligence instead of a person in an embodied brain, would that make a difference?
11:46:29 Sat      Not if you've shed your meat.
11:46:35 MoEnzyme   or at least commit suicide, Lucifer.
11:46:37 Sat      That's why I took it to that stage
11:47:00 Sat      Mo perhaps the dominion could stimpulate reincarnation into the dominion
11:47:18 Lucifer   I think an AI would likely create a different sort of dominion, Mo
11:47:22 Sat      You would not be forced to play, but once you chose to, you'd be bound to.
11:47:59 Lucifer   I think the worst they can do is to prevent you from re-entering if you disconnect before they say you can
11:48:19 Sat      * Sat explored dominion theory while intensely chemically altered last Summer, actually.
11:48:22 MoEnzyme   Perhaps we could have special dominions for people found guilty of heinous crimes IRL. That could be involuntary.
11:48:56 MoEnzyme   Like OZ!
11:48:57 Sat      Well leave the meat behind for a moment and assume a stage of being where you are no longer meat.
11:49:12 Sat      If you can unplug, the rules of the world override those of dominion
11:49:25 Sat      and yes. there would be illegal dominions
11:49:33 Sat      and they would be shut down, etc
11:49:53 Sat      To me the idea of Dominions only makes sense when one is no longer corporal.
11:50:06 Lucifer   OK, in a world where a dominion can trap you, they can also trick you into entering
11:50:15 Sat      * Sat nods
11:50:22 Lucifer   that is a scary thought
11:50:26 Sat      Satan want your soul, Lucifer.
11:50:30 Lucifer   ieeee
11:50:46 Lucifer   alrightly I have to scoot
11:50:51 Sat      maybe some intelligences would want to collect other intelligences
11:50:53 Lucifer   excellent chat!
11:50:58 Lucifer   feel free to continue without me
11:50:59 MoEnzyme   okay good chat Lucifer.
11:51:01 MoEnzyme   Thanks.
11:51:07 Sat      to add processing power.
11:51:13 Lucifer   bbl
11:51:14 Lucifer   Lucifer is  now known as LuciferAFK
11:51:49 MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme is thinking even more strongly that this should be called "Virtual Dominion Theory".
11:52:06 MoEnzyme   Especially with Sat's desire to leave his meat behind
11:52:29 Sat      In the trip I had last Summer, I had this enlightenment: This is a dominion. The reality I am in is one I trapped myself within.
11:52:59 Sat      Sure you could frame it all tech like, but the tech is just a part of the dominion I am trapped within.
11:53:01 MoEnzyme   Well it's different in that once the trip was over, the dominion disolves.
11:53:05 Sat      It was a very strange trip.
11:53:32 Sat      Well assume what you think is real is real... but it is a dominion.
11:53:38 Sat      That this is a sim.
11:53:40 MoEnzyme   It still makes some sense even when not chemically altered. I haven't smoked anything today myself.
11:53:57 Sat      That the meat isn't actually meat.
11:54:05 Sat      it is information.
11:54:29 Sat      Are you are a thread of a much vaster intelligence that is engaged in this reality.
11:54:33 MoEnzyme   right, it's information, but it's still limited by the hardware to some extent.
11:54:43 Sat      right. the rules of the dominion
11:55:26 MoEnzyme   So even if you were tripping (on LSD psylosibin or whatever) it was still going on in the meat-space of your brain.
11:55:44 Sat      See each dominion would in effect be a complete reality with rules it is impossible to break.
11:56:15 Sat      Or maybe one might be able to hack it a tad.
11:56:34 MoEnzyme   Well, we have just a few more minutes until the end of the hour. Any final thoughts?
11:56:41 Sat      Perhaps the pyschdelic trip was a 'program' to hack the sim.
11:57:00 MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme nods
11:57:27 Sat      Well the main thought I have is that we tend to not extend the idea of dominion far enough to use it as a tool for philosophical exploration.
11:57:29 Sat      * Sat shrugs
11:57:54 MoEnzyme   Well, I think we made some progress at least from my point of view.
11:58:02 Sat      * Sat nods
11:58:16 Sat      I think it'd be stimulating to continue next week
11:58:23 MoEnzyme   I didn't know WTF you and Lucifer were talking about an hour ago, and now I feel like I at least have a starting point.
11:58:29 Sat      or outside official caht
11:58:54 Sat      well once we lay the foundation of dominion then we lay the foundatation of Q
11:58:55 MoEnzyme   My clock shows two more minutes
11:59:00 Sat      then see how they interact
11:59:23 MoEnzyme   Ah yes, that could be a good idea to incorporate into virtual dominion theory . . . Q
11:59:27 Sat      * Sat needs new porn
12:00:11 MoEnzyme   Perhaps we can have a scheduled chat about Q within Virtual Dominion Theory.
12:00:26 Sat      * Sat nods
12:00:35 Sat      well I'm going to get back to organizing the lair.
12:00:40 MoEnzyme   cool.
12:00:44 Sat      It was excellent having a 'real' chat
12:00:51 MoEnzyme   It was.
12:01:01 Sat      screw the politics
12:01:03 Sat      * Sat winks
12:01:27 MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme , Sat and googlebot call Time for the end of the scheduled chat about "Virtual Dominion theory"
12:01:29 googlebot   I guess I kinda lost control, because in the middle of the play I ran up and lit the evil puppet villain on fire. No, I didn't. Just kidding. I just said that to help illustrate one of the human emotions, which is freaking out. Another emotion is greed, as when you kill someone for money, or something like that. Another emotion is generosity, as when you pay someone double what he paid for his stupid puppet.
12:02:06 MoEnzyme   alrighty . . . I'll be around off and on for a while.
12:02:07 Sat      feel free to post on the BBS so the outer circles of virus can get infected.
12:02:14 MoEnzyme   * MoEnzyme nods
12:02:18 MoEnzyme   I shall

Also see the permanent link to this chat log which includes some of Sat's afterthoughts on the scheduled chat.
http://www.churchofvirus.org/bbs/index.php?board=;action=chatlog2;channel=%23virus;date=2011-03-13;time=11:;start=0;max=300
« Last Edit: 2011-03-13 16:49:48 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme


(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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