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Topic: virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a Soldier (Read 2107 times) |
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ElvenSage
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Re:virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a Soldier
« Reply #15 on: 2004-07-28 23:58:20 » |
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Erm, my name isnt Eric... 
[Eric]
Alright, lets face the facts here.
We were pulled into a war that was based on 'evidence' that was fabricated.
That you cannot deny.
[Jonathan]
Yes I can because you are wrong. ONE of the MANY good reasons to go to war
turned out to be flawed. This reason was the *threat* of WMD. The mystery of
where the WMDs that existed in 1998 is still unsolved. The *threat* was real
and, given that evidence of a WMD program has been found and confirmed,
justified.
NEW![ElvenSage]
Saddam had done thing to us that we hadn't already dealt with. We helped his weapons program if you remember right. And the information about him aquiring WMDs is still not proven.
[Eric]
Time and time again it has been proven the Osama and Saddam have nothing to
do with each other. They HATE each other. We were lead into Iraq because
they were 'involved with 9/11" and then later because they "were trying to
aquire WMD." Where are those WMDs that Bush KNEW he had? Hmmm? I mean,
it's not like you can tote around a bunch of WMDs without being noticed.
Especially during a time when we were watching their every move.
[Jonathan]
Again, there were many reason, one of which was that Saddam had links to
international terror (in particular Hamas). By extension he is guilty by
association. Oops, Michael Moore's' standards only apply to Bush and
Conservatives right?
NEW![ElvenSage]
Being associated, and threating us are two different things. Saddam hadn't done anything for years to us, and seemly wasn't planning on it.
[Eric]
Do you remember the photos that were shown as "Mobile Bio-chemical and WMD
labs?" Remember that later it was found out that it was just a regular
truck and a building? Yea... we weren't mislead as a nation! Michael Moore
speaks complete lies!
NEW![ElvenSage]
Ummm don't edit something that I've written and then qoute me on it. It's just not good practice..
[Jonathan]
They did find mobile laboratories, it was just that they were not used for
chemical weapons. It is hard to tell this from an airplane. The prudent
thing to do was err on the side of caution. If say Israel had been attacked
with chemical weapons after the US abandoned their efforts against Saddamn
because they could not be sure, Bush would have gone down in history as an
evil fool who was so desperate to only act in US self-interest he did not
attack and neutralise that madman Saddam.
NEW![ElvenSage]
Even if there were mobile labratories that they found that WASNT used for weapons. We were still mislead. Powell and Bush both said that they WERE chemical labratroies making WMDs. We were lied too. Saying something is fact, when you do not know it's fact.. is called a lie.
[Jonathan]
Saddam...
Had chemical weapons NEW![ElvenSage] -> Give the proof.
Used chemical weapons NEW![ElvenSage] -> Yes, and we dealt with that in the early 90s.
Refused inspectors NEW![ElvenSage] Because they were spies... and WE lied to him. I would have done the same.
Invaded neighbours NEW![ElvenSage] Point being? We don't go to the aid of every country who is being envaded.
Fired missiles at Israel NEW![ElvenSage] That's there problem.
Mass murdered his citizens NEW![ElvenSage] ... early 90s.
Launched a million death war NEW![ElvenSage] ... look above.
Supported Hamas and other terroristsNEW![ElvenSage] If that's the case there are bigger fish out there then Iraq. Perhaps Korea? China? Or maybe even the US?
Those who oppose the war by definition seem to think these things do not
count and that inaction was preferable to action.
NEW![ElvenSage]
Inaction was perferable IMHO.
We weren't there to help the people there. We were there for business and business alone.
SNIP
[Eric]
No WMD,
No 9/11 connection,
false evidence,
and lots of corporate scandals and greed.
[Jonathan]
Dictator toppled.
Democracy imminent
Huge threat removed
Nation liberated
Platform for regional stability
Economic boost for whole region and USA
NEW![ElvenSage]
Wasn't our business to topple it. We've created a less desirable state there.
Yeah because everyone HAS to be a democracy or they are evil... right?
No threat.
Liberated my ass!
Platform for regional stability... you have to be kidding me.
Yeah well the point of going in there was an econimic boost.
[Eric]
Fuck Bush.
[Jonathan]
Hail Bush. I give thanks for America, its power and its benevolent
protection of my freedoms and values.
Regards
Jonathan
NEW![ElvenSage]
Hail Bush for taking away our rights of privacy and putting laws in action that take away our freedoms and values! Heil Der Fuhrer!
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JD
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RE: virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a Soldier
« Reply #16 on: 2004-07-29 04:57:32 » |
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
ElvenSage
Sent: 29 July 2004 04:58
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a
Soldier
Erm, my name isnt Eric...
[Eric]
Alright, lets face the facts here.
We were pulled into a war that was based on 'evidence' that was fabricated.
That you cannot deny.
[Jonathan]
Yes I can because you are wrong. ONE of the MANY good reasons to go to war
turned out to be flawed. This reason was the *threat* of WMD. The mystery of
where the WMDs that existed in 1998 is still unsolved. The *threat* was real
and, given that evidence of a WMD program has been found and confirmed,
justified.
NEW![ElvenSage]
Saddam had done thing to us that we hadn't already dealt with. We helped
his weapons program if you remember right. And the information about him
aquiring WMDs is still not proven.
[Jonathan 2] Germany and France helped him mostly. He was an ally at the
time. History is about choosing between lesser evils and very importantly,
CONTEXT.
One cannot take almanacs forged against the deadly Soviet threat and examine
them in isolation 30 years later without mentioning that.
As for acquiring WMD, it is beyond debate that he both had and used Chemical
Weapons in the past and at various times had a nuclear program too.
[Eric]
Time and time again it has been proven the Osama and Saddam have nothing to
do with each other. They HATE each other. We were lead into Iraq because
they were 'involved with 9/11" and then later because they "were trying to
aquire WMD." Where are those WMDs that Bush KNEW he had? Hmmm? I mean,
it's not like you can tote around a bunch of WMDs without being noticed.
Especially during a time when we were watching their every move.
[Jonathan]
Again, there were many reason, one of which was that Saddam had links to
international terror (in particular Hamas). By extension he is guilty by
association. Oops, Michael Moore's' standards only apply to Bush and
Conservatives right?
NEW![ElvenSage]
Being associated, and threating us are two different things. Saddam hadn't
done anything for years to us, and seemly wasn't planning on it.
[Jonathan 2] On the contrary, it is most likely that Saddam was obsessed
with taking revenge against America for Desert Storm. There is also evidence
of his involvement with various terrorists and sub-state actors who are most
certainly America's enemies.
[Eric]
Do you remember the photos that were shown as "Mobile Bio-chemical and WMD
labs?" Remember that later it was found out that it was just a regular
truck and a building? Yea... we weren't mislead as a nation! Michael Moore
speaks complete lies!
NEW![ElvenSage]
Ummm don't edit something that I've written and then qoute me on it. It's
just not good practice..
[Jonathan 2] What?! I edited nothing!
Check the logs on the site, I quoted you verbatim.
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=post;threadid=30649;q
uote=133132
[Jonathan]
They did find mobile laboratories, it was just that they were not used for
chemical weapons. It is hard to tell this from an airplane. The prudent
thing to do was err on the side of caution. If say Israel had been attacked
with chemical weapons after the US abandoned their efforts against Saddamn
because they could not be sure, Bush would have gone down in history as an
evil fool who was so desperate to only act in US self-interest he did not
attack and neutralise that madman Saddam.
NEW![ElvenSage]
Even if there were mobile labratories that they found that WASNT used for
weapons. We were still mislead. Powell and Bush both said that they WERE
chemical labratroies making WMDs. We were lied too. Saying something is
fact, when you do not know it's fact.. is called a lie.
[Jonathan 2]
They said that intelligence indicated that they could be chemical weapons
laboratories. Their mistake was to shift the whole rational for war onto one
of the several sound reasons for was, namely, WMD.
It is my suspicion that the mystery will be cleared up fairly soon. I
predict it will involve smuggling at least some of the weapons to Syria or
elsewhere (nuclear parts have turned up in Holland).
[Jonathan]
Saddam...
Had chemical weapons NEW![ElvenSage] -> Give the proof. [Jonathan 2] --> Do
you deny he had Chemical Weapons as late as 1998 and used them on the Kurds?
Used chemical weapons NEW![ElvenSage] -> Yes, and we dealt with that in the
early 90s. [Jonathan 2] How did we deal with that?
Refused inspectors NEW![ElvenSage] Because they were spies... and WE lied to
him. I would have done the same. [Jonathan 2] Hans Blix was a spy? The
whole UN team was spying? They were looking for weapons of COURSE they were
spying!.
Invaded neighbours NEW![ElvenSage] Point being? We don't go to the aid of
every country who is being envaded. [Jonathan 2] Perhaps we do now. And
anyway, this argument is the old and flawed "If we don't do it for everyone
why should we do it for this one". Apply that to Ambulance crews or policing
to perhaps see the flaws in that reasoning.
Fired missiles at Israel NEW![ElvenSage] That's there problem. [Jonathan 2]
Our allies problem is our problem too. Perhaps you would have preferred an
Israeli nuke on Baghdad after Saddam used his gas on Tel Aviv?
Mass murdered his citizens NEW![ElvenSage] ... early 90s. [Jonathan 2]
Nope. The murder and oppression continued until the invasion.
Launched a million death war NEW![ElvenSage] ... look above. [Jonathan 2]
We were talking context, reasons and justifications. History counts.
Supported Hamas and other terroristsNEW![ElvenSage] If that's the case there
are bigger fish out there then Iraq. Perhaps Korea? China? Or maybe even
the US? [Jonathan 2] N Korea may be nuclear armed (where we prevented Iraq
getting) and consequently we need to tread carefully when confronting their
Stalinist lunacy that has millions of their people starving and a direct
threat to our ally S Korea. Syria and Iran are next. China is actually an
ally. It is the manufacturing wing of the US economy.
Those who oppose the war by definition seem to think these things do not
count and that inaction was preferable to action.
NEW![ElvenSage]
Inaction was perferable IMHO.
We weren't there to help the people there. We were there for business and
business alone.
[Jonathan 2] That is your valid opinion. I see it differently.
SNIP
[Eric]
No WMD,
No 9/11 connection,
false evidence,
and lots of corporate scandals and greed.
[Jonathan]
Dictator toppled.
Democracy imminent
Huge threat removed
Nation liberated
Platform for regional stability
Economic boost for whole region and USA
NEW![ElvenSage]
Wasn't our business to topple it. We've created a less desirable state
there.
[Jonathan 2] I disagree as do the Iraqi people.
Elvensage] Yeah because everyone HAS to be a democracy or they are evil...
right?
[Jonathan 2]
Wrong.
[Elvensage] No threat.
Not anymore :-)
[Elvensage] Liberated my ass!
You are already in the land of the Free. If you want oppression, sample one
the worlds Islamic paradises.
[Elvensage]Platform for regional stability... you have to be kidding me.
[Jonathan 2] We pragmatists take the long-view....
[Elvensage]
Yeah well the point of going in there was an econimic boost.
[Jonathan 2]
It is one of the positive side effects and supplemental reasons for the
invasion.
[Eric]
Fuck Bush.
[Jonathan]
Hail Bush. I give thanks for America, its power and its benevolent
protection of my freedoms and values.
NEW![ElvenSage]
Hail Bush for taking away our rights of privacy and putting laws in action
that take away our freedoms and values! Heil Der Fuhrer!
[Jonathan 2] I invoke Godwin's Law and declare this discussion won and lost.
:-)
What freedoms have you lost Elvensage, list them please..
I will even help:
1. The freedom to walk onto planes without being frisked.
2. The freedom not to have my file cross referenced by more than one law
enforcement agency.
3. The freedom to plan terrorist attacks without harassment.
There you go
Regards
Jonathan
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rhinoceros
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My point is ...
 
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Re:virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a Soldier
« Reply #17 on: 2004-07-29 09:10:09 » |
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This is an interesting technique. Being unable to substantiate any one of the false arguments (manufactured lies), Jonathan quickly rotates between them ("this was not the only reason for the war") and restates them ("there was a 'threat' for that" -- whatever 'threat' means) and then comes back to repeat them all over again, saying that they have not been disproven (as if it is possible to disprove a claim which has never been substantiated).
The vague references to special circumstances and 'lesser evils' also creates a proliferations of variables which turns an easy problem of pointing out manufactured lies into an intractable hairball.
Note the same tecnique in the issue of the 400,000 bodies in mass graves which have become 5,000 after one year, but Blair still says "oh, that... the 400,000 are somewhere out there for sure."
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1263830,00.html
Of course you won't hear much about this kind of thing:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1174554,00.html
Which brings us back to Michael Moore: No wonder that no "warmonger Michael Moore" has appeared who can make a remotely credible case. What "selectively biased facts" could he compile? None. Only opinions.
Or am I wrong? Any warmonger out there who wants to get rich while seving The Force?
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ElvenSage
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Re:virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a Soldier
« Reply #18 on: 2004-07-29 10:09:36 » |
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I believe this is a win/lose arguement as well. Most if what we think and believe are based off a lot of opinions... and things we both can call 'facts.'
As for freedoms that we have lost, have you taken a look at the Patriot Act? They can throw me in prison, charge me with nothing, and keep me there as long as they feel fit. Of course a power like this is going to be abused-- and it has been. I'm sure the worse of the stories about us imprisioning people is still to come. Maybe in a good 20 years the full truth about this whole situation will come out. (When it's totally too late to do anything...)
The government can look at what I check out from the library and buy. They can monitor my internet connection. They can invade pretty much any privacy that I have now.
BTW I love what I've been hearing on TV lately. Seemingly the republicans have come to the conclusion that they went to war on faulty evidence... and are blaming it on 'group think.' Asif that is justification...
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JD
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RE: virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a Soldier
« Reply #19 on: 2004-07-29 13:51:51 » |
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Rhino, I was not invited to tender reason for the war, but I am happy to do
so if you are asking me for them.
We were discussing WMD - the threat from which was one of the bases of the
invasion.
I assert there are other reasons why an invasion was both prudent and
morally right.
I made no appeal to special circumstances, but simply noted that one MUST
retain historical context if one is to avoid being misled by ostensible
"facts".
As for the numbers Saddam murdered it is like arguing over whether Hitler
killed 6 million Jews or a 'mere' 600,000 Jews as claimed by some. Does it
make much of a difference? Do you deny the substantive fact that he was a
genocidal mass murdering and belligerent dictator who one had and used WMD
and might reasonably had had them prior to the invasion?
I reject the label of warmonger and invite you to stop using it unless you
would like me to perhaps address all those opposed to the war as cowards or
pacifists - equally specious descriptions?
I also find this grandiose First person direct narrative, third person
inclusive address of yours to be somewhat condescending and insulting.
As for the why is there no "warmonger Michael Moore"? Well there is and
there are - the difference is they are not backed by millions of dollars of
liberal Hollywood money.
I invite you and your audience to enjoy brilliant and penniless film-maker
Evan Coyne Moloney:
http://brain-terminal.com/topics/video.html (in particular his humiliation
of Moore here : http://brain-terminal.com/video/michael-moore/index.html ).
Also see:
http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/
As for the war, the case is absolutely solid. Saddam is better deposed than
in power. It is better for us, better for the Iraqis and better for the
world.
Dispute that I you will, I look forward to your arguments.
If you have any, I will examine them thoroughly and respectfully.
Kind regards
Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
rhinoceros
Sent: 29 July 2004 14:10
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a
Soldier
This is an interesting technique. Being unable to substantiate any one of
the false arguments (manufactured lies), Jonathan quickly rotates between
them ("this was not the only reason for the war") and restates them ("there
was a 'threat' for that" -- whatever 'threat' means) and then comes back to
repeat them all over again, saying that they have not been disproven (as if
it is possible to disprove a claim which has never been substantiated).
The vague references to special circumstances and 'lesser evils' also
creates a proliferations of variables which turns an easy problem of
pointing out manufactured lies into an intractable hairball.
Note the same tecnique in the issue of the 400,000 bodies in mass graves
which have become 5,000 after one year, but Blair still says "oh, that...
the 400,000 are somewhere out there for sure."
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1263830,00.html
Of course you won't hear much about this kind of thing:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1174554,00.html
Which brings us back to Michael Moore: No wonder that no "warmonger Michael
Moore" has appeared who can make a remotely credible case. What "selectively
biased facts" could he compile? None. Only opinions.
Or am I wrong? Any warmonger out there who wants to get rich while seving
The Force?
----
This message was posted by rhinoceros to the Virus 2004 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=306
49>
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hkhenson@rogers...
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back after a long time
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Re:virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale,
by a Soldier
« Reply #20 on: 2004-07-29 23:34:47 » |
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At 08:09 AM 29/07/04 -0600, ElvenSage wrote:
snip
>BTW I love what I've been hearing on TV lately. Seemingly the republicans
>have come to the conclusion that they went to war on faulty evidence...
>and are blaming it on 'group think.' Asif that is justification...
It isn't of course, but it is *understandable.* You get attacked, the
population goes into "war mode." One of the features of "war mode" from
our Stone Age past is that it makes us stupid, irrational. (The author is
unfortunately not an exception. This model dawned on him too late.)
Attacking the wrong tribe when you have been attacked is a really dumb
move. In the past I am sure it was often lethal. One small tribe can make
out like a bandit if it can make a large tribe think another large tribe
attacked it.
A leader could abuse a tribe (or nation) that is in "stupid mode" by lying
or telling "selective truths" and getting the citizens to support a really
stupid attack on an uninvolved third party.
Nah, that's too far fetched. But if it did happen and the public became
aware that they had been abused . . . . .
Keith
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a Soldier
« Reply #21 on: 2004-07-30 02:34:46 » |
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At 08:09 AM 29/07/04 -0600, ElvenSage wrote:
snip
>BTW I love what I've been hearing on TV lately. Seemingly the republicans
>have come to the conclusion that they went to war on faulty evidence...
>and are blaming it on 'group think.' Asif that is justification.../snip
[Blunderov] 'Group think' - what a deliciously Marxist inflection!
The way in which both Bush and Blair have set up their own intelligence
services to take the blame for their hot-headed impetuosities is not only
treacherous and cowardly; it is extremely short sighted.
It seems to me a bit like training your dog to bark at shadows in the night
and then thrashing him soundly when he disturbs your slumbers. Do not be
surprised to wake up one morning to find your possessions gone and Rover
dozing peacefully in his kennel.
This outlook of short term expediency is (IMV) a major fault line in Western
Democracy. It allows politicians to cry wolf (or should that be 'dog'?) and
then avoid the consequences in the comfort of their well feathered
retirement billets.
More strength to your arm Elvensage!
Best Regards.
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Re:virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a Soldier
« Reply #22 on: 2004-07-30 05:43:43 » |
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Quote:[Blunderov] 'Group think' - what a deliciously Marxist inflection!
The way in which both Bush and Blair have set up their own intelligence
services to take the blame for their hot-headed impetuosities is not only
treacherous and cowardly; it is extremely short sighted.
It seems to me a bit like training your dog to bark at shadows in the night
and then thrashing him soundly when he disturbs your slumbers. Do not be
surprised to wake up one morning to find your possessions gone and Rover
dozing peacefully in his kennel.
This outlook of short term expediency is (IMV) a major fault line in Western
Democracy. It allows politicians to cry wolf (or should that be 'dog'?) and
then avoid the consequences in the comfort of their well feathered
retirement billets.
More strength to your arm Elvensage!
Best Regards.
|
This is why I question all these things I'm being told from the right. That Saddam DID have the weapons. That there is proof he tried to get the weapons, etc etc. If that's the case why has Bush been covering his ass lately like this? It seems to me that the administration knows it has messed up, and is going to do what they can to make it seem asif it isn't thier fault. They can't blame it on the public. That's rediculous. The public didn't say "Saddam did it!" When the towers were crashed into. It was Bin Laden, right? Then they lied to us and said that Saddam and Bin Laden were working together. Did the 'angry public' make them say this? No. No one wants to send their children off into a war, especially one that isn't nessicary. This was a fabrication created by the Bush administration not for the freedom of a country, not for the safety of the United States, but to lace Bush and his buddies pockets with the finest riches. I don't feel this "group-think" nonsense is creditable, or even comes close to justifying the fact that we have killed many Americans and Iraqi's alike for a reason that the Bush administration lied to us about. I hold the branding iron to them! No one deserved to wear the blame but those in high-power positions that mislead us.
And thank you Blunderov. Thank you very much!
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Safe from the pain and truth and choice and other poison devils
See.. they don't give a fuck about you, like i do.
Just stay with me, safe and ignorant,
Go back to sleep
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JD
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RE: virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a Soldier
« Reply #23 on: 2004-07-30 06:40:10 » |
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Blunderov
Sent: 30 July 2004 07:35
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a
Soldier
At 08:09 AM 29/07/04 -0600, ElvenSage wrote:
snip
>BTW I love what I've been hearing on TV lately. Seemingly the
>republicans have come to the conclusion that they went to war on faulty
evidence...
>and are blaming it on 'group think.' Asif that is
>justification.../snip
[Blunderov]
SNIP
This outlook of short term expediency is (IMV) a major fault line in Western
Democracy. It allows politicians to cry wolf (or should that be 'dog'?) and
then avoid the consequences in the comfort of their well feathered
retirement billets.
[Jonathan] Whilst I agree with this point, to talk about expediency and
short-termism in the context of Bush /Blair/Iraq is flawed.
Bush and Blair undertook an unpopular war at significant political risk and
cost. They went in to the war knowing it would damage them. They did so
anyway (and in my view rightly).
They took a rare long term view and inexpedient route. In Blair's case at
least I am convinced he did so because he is completely convinced it was the
right thing to do even if in the short term it cost him dearly.
I happen to agree though that short term expediency is a major fault line in
any Democracy. The system forces politicians into a position where NOT
behaving with a short term and expedient view is nearly impossible.
Here is the catch: If I as a politician need to do something which will be
of benefit in the long term, I may have to do something unpopular now. This
is a bind. If I do something unpopular now, I may be voted out and achieve
nothing. The struggle is to balance these forces, this is why you get the
early to mid-term unpopular policies and the sweeteners at election time.
This problem is very apparent in energy policy. We urgently need to prepare
for the Oil Peak and the decline of fossil fuel reserves. Yet when a
politician have tried to do anything about this, the energy companies
annihilate them and the electorate come to think of them as doom saying
environmental nuts. The get voted out. Nothing is done. They get cursed by
future generations who ask "Why didn't they do anything"?
I am sure game theorists and evolutionary psychologist have names for these
mechanisms.
Kind regards
Jonathan
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Blunderov
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"We think in generalities, we live in details"
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RE: virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a Soldier
« Reply #24 on: 2004-07-30 07:45:31 » |
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Jonathan Davis
Sent: 30 July 2004 12:40
[Jonathan] Whilst I agree with this point, to talk about expediency and
short-termism in the context of Bush /Blair/Iraq is flawed.
Bush and Blair undertook an unpopular war at significant political risk and
cost. They went in to the war knowing it would damage them. They did so
anyway (and in my view rightly).
They took a rare long term view and inexpedient route. In Blair's case at
least I am convinced he did so because he is completely convinced it was the
right thing to do even if in the short term it cost him dearly.
I happen to agree though that short term expediency is a major fault line in
any Democracy. The system forces politicians into a position where NOT
behaving with a short term and expedient view is nearly impossible.
Here is the catch: If I as a politician need to do something which will be
of benefit in the long term, I may have to do something unpopular now. This
is a bind. If I do something unpopular now, I may be voted out and achieve
nothing. The struggle is to balance these forces, this is why you get the
early to mid-term unpopular policies and the sweeteners at election time.
This problem is very apparent in energy policy. We urgently need to prepare
for the Oil Peak and the decline of fossil fuel reserves. Yet when a
politician have tried to do anything about this, the energy companies
annihilate them and the electorate come to think of them as doom saying
environmental nuts. The get voted out. Nothing is done. They get cursed by
future generations who ask "Why didn't they do anything"?
I am sure game theorists and evolutionary psychologist have names for these
mechanisms.
[Blunderov] Just to be clear; I had meant the expediency of blaming the
intelligence apparatus for the war.
That said, we will probably have to agree to differ on whether the war
itself was a product of that 'fault line'. My view is that it was a
disgraceful act of cynical opportunism and was fully consistent with this
dynamic (Garlands in Baghdad) - but I'm sure you already knew that.
Best Regards.
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simul
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I am a lama.
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Re: virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a Soldier
« Reply #25 on: 2004-07-31 20:14:12 » |
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I'm certain it has been abused at least once.
-----Original Message-----
From: "ElvenSage" <elvensage@chaosrealms.org>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:09:37
To:virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a Soldier
I believe this is a win/lose arguement as well. Most if what we think and believe are based off a lot of opinions... and things we both can call 'facts.'
As for freedoms that we have lost, have you taken a look at the Patriot Act? They can throw me in prison, charge me with nothing, and keep me there as long as they feel fit. Of course a power like this is going to be abused-- and it has been. I'm sure the worse of the stories about us imprisioning people is still to come. Maybe in a good 20 years the full truth about this whole situation will come out. (When it's totally too late to do anything...)
The government can look at what I check out from the library and buy. They can monitor my internet connection. They can invade pretty much any privacy that I have now.
BTW I love what I've been hearing on TV lately. Seemingly the republicans have come to the conclusion that they went to war on faulty evidence... and are blaming it on 'group think.' Asif that is justification...
----
This message was posted by ElvenSage to the Virus 2004 board on Church of Virus BBS.
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=30649>
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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rhinoceros
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My point is ...
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Re:virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a Soldier
« Reply #26 on: 2004-08-02 20:46:44 » |
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[Jonathan Davis] Rhino, I was not invited to tender reason for the war, but I am happy to do so if you are asking me for them.
[rhinoceros] Your list of reasons for the war which you posted in this same thread and the particular way in which you used it was what prompted me to write that post.
[Jonathan Davis] We were discussing WMD - the threat from which was one of the bases of the invasion.
I assert there are other reasons why an invasion was both prudent and morally right.
I made no appeal to special circumstances, but simply noted that one MUST retain historical context if one is to avoid being misled by ostensible "facts".
[rhinoceros] And this is what I addressed in my reply, which is attached again at the end of this mesage for reference: The use of a rotating list while evading any one tangible issue.
[Jonathan Davis] As for the numbers Saddam murdered it is like arguing over whether Hitler killed 6 million Jews or a 'mere' 600,000 Jews as claimed by some. Does it make much of a difference? Do you deny the substantive fact that he was a genocidal mass murdering and belligerent dictator who one had and used WMD and might reasonably had had them prior to the invasion?
[rhinoceros] You are following the same muddling line of argument again. As I wrote:
<my quote>
Note the same tecnique in the issue of the 400,000 bodies in mass graves which have become 5,000 after one year, but Blair still says "oh, that... the 400,000 are somewhere out there for sure."
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1263830,00.html
<end quote>
Read the article. We have a fact here. Blair lied in order to lead his people to the war. Unlike other topics which we have been discussing here, this one is tangible, and it can be resolved neatly and clearly if we stick to the issue at hand.
Now, if someone feigns taking offence and tells me "Are you calling Mr. Blair a warmongering liar", I could always reply "do the math and figure it out." As gratifying as it may be to you to hear me call Hitler, Stalin, Churchill, Truman, or Saddam genocidal mass murderers, I'd rather leave rhetorics for another occasion and settle with the above tangible question.
By the way, it is interesting that you brought up the Holocaust. You ask: "Does it make much of a difference [whether Hitler killed 6 million Jews or a 'mere' 600,000 Jews as claimed by some]." How would you, Jonathan, answer this question? Would you say "ok, 6 million or 600,000 or 5,000, what's the difference, Hitler was still a monster?" Wouldn't you look up facts in order to put it in perspective with the atrocities of the century? I guess not.
[Jonathan Davis] I reject the label of warmonger and invite you to stop using it unless you would like me to perhaps address all those opposed to the war as cowards or pacifists - equally specious descriptions?
[rhinoceros] This is bullshit and feigned annoyance. The only point where I used the word "warmonger" was this:
<quote>
Which brings us back to Michael Moore: No wonder that no "warmonger Michael Moore" has appeared who can make a remotely credible case. What "selectively biased facts" could he compile? None. Only opinions.
<end quote>
I used the word properly to convey what I had in mind. I even used quotes, and it was in a negative sentence. And although I gave an answer to my own question, the question was clearly not rhetoric. There was meat for anyone interested to answer.
As for the "pacifist" and "coward" labels, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't use them if you come accross a case of extreme compliance.
[Jonathan Davis] I also find this grandiose First person direct narrative, third person inclusive address of yours to be somewhat condescending and insulting.
[rhinoceros] I have no idea what you are talking about, and I still find your annoyance feigned. My post to which you are replying is attached at the end for reference.
[Jonathan Davis] As for the why is there no "warmonger Michael Moore"? Well there is and there are - the difference is they are not backed by millions of dollars of liberal Hollywood money.
[rhinoceros] Interesting.
But something just happened to the back legs of my chair and I can't type comfortably. Next time.
<snip>
-----Original Message-----
[rhinoceros]
This is an interesting technique. Being unable to substantiate any one of the false arguments (manufactured lies), Jonathan quickly rotates between them ("this was not the only reason for the war") and restates them ("there was a 'threat' for that" -- whatever 'threat' means) and then comes back to repeat them all over again, saying that they have not been disproven (as if it is possible to disprove a claim which has never been substantiated)
The vague references to special circumstances and 'lesser evils' also creates a proliferations of variables which turns an easy problem of pointing out manufactured lies into an intractable hairball.
Note the same tecnique in the issue of the 400,000 bodies in mass graves which have become 5,000 after one year, but Blair still says "oh, that... the 400,000 are somewhere out there for sure."
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1263830,00.html
Of course you won't hear much about this kind of thing:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1174554,00.html
Which brings us back to Michael Moore: No wonder that no "warmonger Michael Moore" has appeared who can make a remotely credible case. What "selectively biased facts" could he compile? None. Only opinions.
Or am I wrong? Any warmonger out there who wants to get rich while seving The Force?
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JD
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RE: virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a Soldier
« Reply #27 on: 2004-08-03 06:14:28 » |
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Hi Rhino,
I have two options here: Continue this ultimately fruitless row or stifle my
competitive side and let some of these new, positive topics flourish.
I am opting for no. 2.
I know you will approve :-)
JD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
rhinoceros
Sent: 03 August 2004 01:47
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a
Soldier
SNIP
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rhinoceros
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My point is ...
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Re:virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by a Soldier
« Reply #28 on: 2004-08-03 06:59:37 » |
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[Jonathan Davis]
Hi Rhino,
I have two options here: Continue this ultimately fruitless row or stifle my competitive side and let some of these new, positive topics flourish.
I am opting for no. 2.
I know you will approve :-)
[rhinoceros]
Hi Jonathan,
Your rhino herding techniques are impeccable. :-)
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