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Topic: virus: Smear Factor (Read 563 times) |
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hkhenson@rogers...
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Re: virus: Smear Factor
« Reply #2 on: 2004-07-17 19:25:39 » |
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At 02:31 PM 17/07/04 -0400, you wrote:
>Has lying about the enemy competitor ever worked before?
>
>Bill
1) Is this a standard thing humans do?
2) If so, the tendency to do so much have either been directly selected or
a side effect of something that was selected.
3) If directly selected it must have worked more often than it failed,
further, the trait to do so must have provided a reproductive advantage to
those who did it.
4) Lying about competitors might *not* be particularly effective in the
modern world, but keep in mind our psychological traits were selected in
the Stone Age.
Keith Henson
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rhinoceros
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My point is ...
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Re:virus: Smear Factor
« Reply #3 on: 2004-07-17 23:25:45 » |
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[Bill Mackinnon]
Has lying about the enemy competitor ever worked before.
[Keith Henson]
1) Is this a standard thing humans do?
[rhinoceros]
Good question. It is always a good idea to establish the fact before getting at an evolutionary argument. I think that lying about the enemy competitor is a standard thing some people do and a standard thing some people don't.
In business, it is often a matter of evaluating the benefits and the drawbacks, a matter of inference -- rather than an impulsive behavior or a "quick calculation". It can be effective, but it brings up an image of a small-time crook with little confidence in whatever he peddles. Microsoft does it more often than IBM, for example.
At the personal level, both folk wisdom and traditional psychological profiling assign a low self-esteem to those who belittle others in order to gain status. We have popular sayings such as "Lie has short legs" (i.e. it won't get you very far). It is an interesting question whether any of this has an evolutionary significance.
[Keith Henson]
2) If so, the tendency to do so much have either been directly selected or a side effect of something that was selected.
[rhinoceros]
So it seems. There must be some basic genetic traits triggered one way or the other, permanently or occasionally.
[Keith Henson]
3) If directly selected it must have worked more often than it failed, further, the trait to do so must have provided a reproductive advantage to those who did it.
[rhinoceros]
There is a line of reasoning saying that culture has been watering down our "wild" traits of seeking immediate personal benefit, therefore culture acts in a somehow counter-evolutionary way. However, humans have been social animals for a very long time. It is equally reasonable to say that the tribes which allowed their individuals to act "less than honorably" by belittling others performed sub-par and were selected out. In this line of reasoning, it is the deviant "smearer" who is acting in a counter-evolutionary way.
[Keith Henson]
4) Lying about competitors might *not* be particularly effective in the modern world, but keep in mind our psychological traits were selected in the Stone Age.
[rhinoceros]
Heh, I just claimed that it might be not always effective in the caves either -- just triggered under some circumstances.
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LenKen
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Re: virus: Smear Factor
« Reply #4 on: 2004-07-18 01:22:00 » |
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Señor Henson wrote: “Lying about competitors might *not* be particularly effective in the modern world, but keep in mind our psychological traits were selected in the Stone Age.”
_____________
It makes you wonder what kind of trash Cro Magnon man talked about Neanderthals:
“Hey, Ikmak, why does it always take two Neanderthal men to start a fire?”
“Gee, I don’t know, Splanknik, but I have a funny feeling you’re gonna tell me.”
“That’s the only way they know how to start a fire by rubbing two sticks together.”
“Oy.”
“Hey, what did the Neanderthal boy say to his mother?”
“I have no idea. What?”
“Not tonight, Mom, I have a headache.”
Ikmak looks at his watch and then surreptitiously eyes the tent’s exit.
“Oh, hey—before you go—I got one more,” continues Splanknik. “Why do Neanderthals speak in crude grunts and gesticulations?”
“Why?”
“Because they’re German.”
“Check, please.”
_____________
It’s hard for an atheist
with a god complex
to believe in himself. —LenKen
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simul
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Re: virus: Smear Factor
« Reply #5 on: 2004-07-18 13:55:41 » |
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I have a feeling that this is a memetic/cultural survival trait, not a genetic one. Memetic survival often runs contrary to genetic.
-----Original Message-----
From: "rhinoceros" <rhinoceros@freemail.gr>
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:25:45
To:virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: Smear Factor
[Bill Mackinnon]
Has lying about the enemy competitor ever worked before.
[Keith Henson]
1) Is this a standard thing humans do?
[rhinoceros]
Good question. It is always a good idea to establish the fact before getting at an evolutionary argument. I think that lying about the enemy competitor is a standard thing some people do and a standard thing some people don't.
In business, it is often a matter of evaluating the benefits and the drawbacks, a matter of inference -- rather than an impulsive behavior or a "quick calculation". It can be effective, but it brings up an image of a small-time crook with little confidence in whatever he peddles. Microsoft does it more often than IBM, for example.
At the personal level, both folk wisdom and traditional psychological profiling assign a low self-esteem to those who belittle others in order to gain status. We have popular sayings such as "Lie has short legs" (i.e. it won't get you very far). It is an interesting question whether any of this has an evolutionary significance.
[Keith Henson]
2) If so, the tendency to do so much have either been directly selected or a side effect of something that was selected.
[rhinoceros]
So it seems. There must be some basic genetic traits triggered one way or the other, permanently or occasionally.
[Keith Henson]
3) If directly selected it must have worked more often than it failed, further, the trait to do so must have provided a reproductive advantage to those who did it.
[rhinoceros]
There is a line of reasoning saying that culture has been watering down our "wild" traits of seeking immediate personal benefit, therefore culture acts in a somehow counter-evolutionary way. However, humans have been social animals for a very long time. It is equally reasonable to say that the tribes which allowed their individuals to act "less than honorably" by belittling others performed sub-par and were selected out. In this line of reasoning, it is the deviant "smearer" who is acting in a counter-evolutionary way.
[Keith Henson]
4) Lying about competitors might *not* be particularly effective in the modern world, but keep in mind our psychological traits were selected in the Stone Age.
[rhinoceros]
Heh, I just claimed that it might be not always effective in the caves either -- just triggered under some circumstances.
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This message was posted by rhinoceros to the Virus 2004 board on Church of Virus BBS.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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LenKen
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Re: virus: Smear Factor
« Reply #6 on: 2004-07-18 15:13:40 » |
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I’m inclined to believe that this is an instance of meme-gene coevolution. This kind of sniping is so widespread—usually on a smaller scale, e.g., gossip—that I’d be amazed if it weren’t largely innate. But something else that’s largely innate is the desire to not get caught doing it—and some people are better at this than others.
_____________
Erik Aronesty <erik@zoneedit.com> wrote:
I have a feeling that this is a memetic/cultural survival trait, not a genetic one. Memetic survival often runs contrary to genetic.
It’s hard for an atheist
with a god complex
to believe in himself. —LenKen
---------------------------------
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Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
attached: index.html
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One man’s frozen sperm is another man’s low-carb ice cream.
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simul
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Re: virus: Smear Factor
« Reply #7 on: 2004-07-18 18:02:54 » |
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The trick is not to put down your competitors but to, instead, promote them among people who you know will dislike them. Then you can quietly nurture the discontent.
Putting levels of intentionality between you and your target is far more effective in the long run.
-----Original Message-----
From: LenKen <lenkennedymemeplex@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:13:40
To:virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re: virus: Smear Factor
I’m inclined to believe that this is an instance of meme-gene coevolution. This kind of sniping is so widespread—usually on a smaller scale, e.g., gossip—that I’d be amazed if it weren’t largely innate. But something else that’s largely innate is the desire to not get caught doing it—and some people are better at this than others.
_____________
Erik Aronesty <erik@zoneedit.com> wrote: I have a feeling that this is a memetic/cultural survival trait, not a genetic one. Memetic survival often runs contrary to genetic.
It’s hard for an atheist
with a god complex
to believe in himself. —LenKen
Do you Yahoo!?
Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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