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Topic: virus: New Saints (Read 516 times) |
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Corey A Cook
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virus: New Saints
« on: 2004-06-26 05:20:25 » |
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Hello, hello, long time no see. I've been lurking for a while, and things seem to have slowed down some. In a feeble attempt to generate discussion, I would like to open the path to sainthood back up. As you all know, our only luminary so far is St. Darwin. As some of you know, a great man passed from this world two years ago. Of course, I am referring to Stephen Jay Gould, who died in May of 2002 at the age of 60. This man did a great deal of work in the field of evolutionary biology, and disseminated many memes related to cognitive science. I must admit though, that Dr. Gould was not my first candidate for this post. I was going to nominate Hypatia of Alexandria, not for her philosophy (I have no disagreements with her philosophy, it is just that so little of her work remains intact) but for her martyrdom. Very symbolic. And painful.
And so I must give credit to my good friend Jay Middleton for the wonderful suggestion. Dr. Gould seems to fit all the criteria: he is dead, he was an effective vector, and his memes affect the way we see evolutionary psychology. Another suggestion from Jay, who may be joining us soon, was for the beafication of Father Gregor Mendel (1822-1884), who contributed much data to the theory of heredity.
I hope to hear some intelligent debate on this topic, and of course more nominations.
Corey A Cook
coreycook42@yahoo.com
The One Universal Truth:
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LenKen
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Re: virus: New Saints
« Reply #1 on: 2004-06-26 14:14:43 » |
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I have nothing against Stephen Jay Gould, but I don’t think he deserves to be a Virian saint. I don’t dislike him or anything, but (this is just one complaint among many) not only was he never a big fan of Dawkins’s meme theory, he didn’t even like the concept of cultural evolution. As he says in his otherwise-excellent book Full House (pages 219–220), “Using the term—evolution—for both natural and cultural history obfuscates far more than it enlightens. . . . Why not speak of something more neutral and descriptive—‘cultural change,’ for example?”
But Gregor Mendel might work, despite his religious handicap.
I had originally intended to try to get Nietzsche canonized as a Virian saint (as a few other Virions have proposed in the past), but after further reflection, I don’t think he was a paragon of Virianhood. And he understood Darwin too poorly (because he probably only knew Darwinism through second-hand sources) to fully appreciate the explanatory power of evolution by natural selection. (And in his autobiography, Ecce Homo, he seemed genuinely offended that some “scholarly oxen” had accused him of Darwinism because of the way he had explained the concept of the Übermensch in Thus Spoke Zarathustra—that the overman will be as superior to man as man is to the apes.)
I do, however, stand by the canonization of Richard Dawkins as a Virian saint. I’m conducting a little informal poll on the Suggestion Box message board. (Because, as far as I know, I’m not authorized to initiate a formal poll.) And, hopefully, depending upon the response, this will lead to a more formal poll.
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=8;action=display;threadid=30557
So far, only four people other than myself have voted, so it’s not looking too good. I probably would have gotten a bigger response if I had “accidentally” mistyped the question as “Should Maddona’s perineum be canonized as a Virian taint?”
It’s hard for an atheist
with a god complex
to believe in himself. —LenKen
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LenKen
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Re: virus: New Saints
« Reply #2 on: 2004-06-27 22:47:05 » |
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I hope I didn’t sound too dismissive of the late Stephen Jay Gould in my last email. I’m certainly not trying to squelch any debate on the topic of Virian saints. After all, mine is hardly the last word on the subject (and I can’t possibly be the only one with an opinion on this subject).
I’m surprised more people haven’t jumped into the fray, since this issue isn’t nearly as contentious as those dealing with war and terrorism, so we shouldn’t have to worry about our debates escalating into that kind of kerfuffle.
And, unlike those arguments, this one is likely to be resolved to the satisfaction of most Virions. I think.
It’s hard for an atheist
with a god complex
to believe in himself. —LenKen
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Lise Carlstrom
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Re: virus: New Saints
« Reply #3 on: 2004-06-28 01:17:13 » |
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--- Corey A Cook <hidden@lucifer.com> wrote:
>
> Hello, hello, long time no see. I've been lurking
> for a while, and things seem to have slowed down
> some. In a feeble attempt to generate discussion, I
> would like to open the path to sainthood back up.
> As you all know, our only luminary so far is St.
> Darwin. As some of you know, a great man passed
> from this world two years ago. Of course, I am
> referring to Stephen Jay Gould, who died in May of
> 2002 at the age of 60. This man did a great deal of
> work in the field of evolutionary biology, and
> disseminated many memes related to cognitive
> science.
He opposed the concept of memetics, so I don't think
he should be a saint of ours. He'd certainly find it
annoying. I do admire his evolutionary work and
writing, however.
> I was going
> to nominate Hypatia of Alexandria, not for her
> philosophy (I have no disagreements with her
> philosophy, it is just that so little of her work
> remains intact) but for her martyrdom. Very
> symbolic. And painful.
I admire her intellectual accomplishment, as a human,
and as a woman and pagan of her time. Her martyrdom
clinches the deal.
--Eva
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MoEnzyme
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Re: virus: New Saints
« Reply #4 on: 2004-06-28 05:16:01 » |
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I thought Hypatia as a Saint was already a done deal. Perhaps someone may
consider following up and including her in the CoV website with Darwin; I'm
sure David would cooperate with someone good at web design. As for Gould,
I agree with Eva-Lise and others who think him inappropriate due to his
positions about memetics and cultural evolution in general. While I favor
revering his memory as a great educator, story teller, and scientist, Gould
and Virian Sainthood are incompatible IMO. I think Carl Sagan would be a
more appropriate candidate than Gould because at least he had no opinion
about memetics (as far as I know), and because of his sense of vision about
space exploration, commitment to reason (e.g. "Demon Haunted World"), and
his empathy for UFO fanatics while holding to his own skepticism; all the
kinds of things that I would expect and hope for in a community of Virians.
-Jake
> [Original Message]
> From: Eva-Lise Carlstrom <evalise@yahoo.com>
> To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> Date: 06/27/2004 10:17:13 PM
> Subject: Re: virus: New Saints
>
> --- Corey A Cook <hidden@lucifer.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello, hello, long time no see. I've been lurking
> > for a while, and things seem to have slowed down
> > some. In a feeble attempt to generate discussion, I
> > would like to open the path to sainthood back up.
> > As you all know, our only luminary so far is St.
> > Darwin. As some of you know, a great man passed
> > from this world two years ago. Of course, I am
> > referring to Stephen Jay Gould, who died in May of
> > 2002 at the age of 60. This man did a great deal of
> > work in the field of evolutionary biology, and
> > disseminated many memes related to cognitive
> > science.
>
> He opposed the concept of memetics, so I don't think
> he should be a saint of ours. He'd certainly find it
> annoying. I do admire his evolutionary work and
> writing, however.
>
> > I was going
> > to nominate Hypatia of Alexandria, not for her
> > philosophy (I have no disagreements with her
> > philosophy, it is just that so little of her work
> > remains intact) but for her martyrdom. Very
> > symbolic. And painful.
>
> I admire her intellectual accomplishment, as a human,
> and as a woman and pagan of her time. Her martyrdom
> clinches the deal.
>
> --Eva
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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--- Jake Sapiens
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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David Lucifer
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Re: virus: New Saints
« Reply #5 on: 2004-06-29 13:16:56 » |
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I agree with you about Gould. In the (sadly truncated) memetic war between
the Dawkins/Dennett camp vs. Gould et al I always sided with the former.
----- Original Message -----
From: LenKen
I hope I didn't sound too dismissive of the late Stephen Jay Gould in my
last email. I'm certainly not trying to squelch any debate on the topic of
Virian saints. After all, mine is hardly the last word on the subject (and
I can't possibly be the only one with an opinion on this subject).
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David Lucifer
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Re: virus: New Saints
« Reply #6 on: 2004-06-29 13:20:22 » |
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jake Sapiens" <every1hz@earthlink.net>
> I thought Hypatia as a Saint was already a done deal. Perhaps someone may
> consider following up and including her in the CoV website with Darwin;
I'm
Indeed, the vote is decisive (meaning that the difference between the equity
positions of the leading option vs. the second option is greater than the
unvoted equity, in other words, no matter how the remaining voters would
choose they cannot change the outcome of the vote).
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=8;action=voteResults;idvote=40
> sure David would cooperate with someone good at web design.
Yes, please.
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LenKen
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Re: virus: New Saints
« Reply #7 on: 2004-06-29 20:47:51 » |
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I can’t believe I just now got around to voting on that issue (in the affirmative, of course).
It’s hard to fathom just how much was lost—and how many thoughts had to be rethought by later thinkers—because of that mass memocide. Myriad memes that were the result of millions of hours of thinking were decimated and replaced by the malignant memes of blind faith and hostility to rival memeplexes.
Fortunately, with the decentralization of knowledge in today’s world, history is unlikely to repeat itself. Unlikely but not impossible.
David McFadzean <david@lucifer.com> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jake Sapiens"
> I thought Hypatia as a Saint was already a done deal. Perhaps someone may
> consider following up and including her in the CoV website with Darwin;
I'm
Indeed, the vote is decisive (meaning that the difference between the equity
positions of the leading option vs. the second option is greater than the
unvoted equity, in other words, no matter how the remaining voters would
choose they cannot change the outcome of the vote). . . .
It’s hard for an atheist
with a god complex
to believe in himself. —LenKen
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hkhenson@rogers...
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Re: virus: New Saints
« Reply #8 on: 2004-06-30 00:08:20 » |
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At 01:16 PM 29/06/04 -0400, David wrote:
>I agree with you about Gould. In the (sadly truncated) memetic war between
>the Dawkins/Dennett camp vs. Gould et al I always sided with the former.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: LenKen
>
>I hope I didn't sound too dismissive of the late Stephen Jay Gould in my
>last email. I'm certainly not trying to squelch any debate on the topic of
>Virian saints. After all, mine is hardly the last word on the subject (and
>I can't possibly be the only one with an opinion on this subject).
Gould was taken by memes of political correctness. I think they overruled
his science at times. What is, is. There really are differences in the
human races that reflect the different environmental pressures on them
since the original stock evolved in Africa. White men really can't jump
and on average, Asians are smarter than us whiteboys.
Not that it makes a bit of difference when we see AIs a thousand times
smarter than us looming over the horizon.
Keith Henson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jay_Gouldl
Gould had a long-running feud with Richard Dawkins and other evolutionary
biologists over sociobiology and its descendant evolutionary psychology,
which Gould opposed but Dawkins, Dennett, Pinker and others strongly
advocated, and over the importance of gene selection in evolution: Dawkins
argued that all evolution is ultimately caused by gene competition, while
Gould advocated the importance of higher level competition including,
controversially, species selection. Many evolutionary biologists believe
that Gould misunderstood Dawkins' claims, and that he ended up refuting a
point of view that Dawkins had not held. Strong criticism of Gould can be
found particularly in Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker and Dennett's Darwin's
Dangerous Idea; Dennett's criticism has tended to be harsher while Dawkins
actually praises Gould in evolutionary topics other than those of
contention. Gould, Lewontin and other opponents of evolutionary psychology
are accused by Pinker (2002) of being "radical scientists", whose stance on
human nature is influenced by politics rather than science.
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simul
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Re: virus: New Saints
« Reply #9 on: 2004-06-30 16:56:34 » |
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Have you ever heard of an “Astro-Turf movement”?
Memetic engineering is, as always, every bit as powerful as communications engineering.
-----Original Message-----
From: LenKen <lenkennedymemeplex@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:47:51
To:virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re: virus: New Saints
I can’t believe I just now got around to voting on that issue (in the affirmative, of course).
It’s hard to fathom just how much was lost—and how many thoughts had to be rethought by later thinkers—because of that mass memocide. Myriad memes that were the result of millions of hours of thinking were decimated and replaced by the malignant memes of blind faith and hostility to rival memeplexes.
Fortunately, with the decentralization of knowledge in today’s world, history is unlikely to repeat itself. Unlikely but not impossible.
David McFadzean <david@lucifer.com> wrote: ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jake Sapiens"
> I thought Hypatia as a Saint was already a done deal. Perhaps someone may
> consider following up and including her in the CoV website with Darwin;
I'm
Indeed, the vote is decisive (meaning that the difference between the equity
positions of the leading option vs. the second option is greater than the
unvoted equity, in other words, no matter how the remaining voters would
choose they cannot change the outcome of the vote). . . .
It’s hard for an atheist
with a god complex &! nbsp;
to believe in himself. —LenKen
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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LenKen
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Re: virus: New Saints
« Reply #10 on: 2004-07-02 23:01:36 » |
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I finally got around to Googling “Microsoft Astroturf” (because I had somehow never heard of it; or, more accurately, I’d heard of the tactic, but I never knew what it was called) and I’m not sure whether I should applaud their cleverness or castigate their connivingness—or both:
“The Los Angeles Times (which blew the cover off a major Microsoft ‘astroturf’ campaign a couple years ago), has published details of another phony letter writing campaign attempting to show popular support for Microsoft’s position vs. the Department of Justice.
An ‘astroturf’ campaign is so called after the artificial grass product AstroTurftm since it artificially simulates ‘grass-roots’ support.
In this case, a great deal of effort was expended to make the letters look real and individual, so the intent to deceive is obvious. Each was on ‘personalized’ stationary [sic] and used different type faces, but some included mistakes (coming from dead people and towns that didn’t exist) and a number of them included identical sentences. They were, in fact, composed by a Microsoft lobbying front, Americans for Technology Leadership.”
(source article: http://www.aaxnet.com/news/M010823.html)
I’ll be surprized if the Republican party doesn’t try something similar in the following election (assuming they haven’t already). Hell, I’ll be surprized if the Democratic party doesn’t, as well. After all, when has ethics ever gotten in the way of a political campaign?
Erik Aronesty <erik@zoneedit.com> wrote:
Have you ever heard of an “Astro-Turf movement”?
Memetic engineering is, as always, every bit as powerful as communications engineering.
It’s hard for an atheist
with a god complex
to believe in himself. —LenKen
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Corey A Cook
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Re:virus: New Saints
« Reply #11 on: 2004-07-09 01:16:01 » |
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No, simul. I had never heard it described that way. But what did you mean by it?
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