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   Author  Topic: CoV - The Clean-Up Plan.  (Read 1551 times)
ElvenSage
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CoV - The Clean-Up Plan.
« on: 2004-06-05 23:29:26 »
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Alright guys, I think as a group once and for all we should come to a conclusion on what we want to do with the CoV.  We have discussed a lot, yet little has honestly changed within the last couple years.  The CoV is no longer, and hasn't been, the place I joined.  You all know this, you all most likely feel like I do.  Remember all the great posts taht filled the CoV before?  Nothing but non-stop "nerdom" to fulfill the curious sides of us all.

I want that back.  I wish things could return to where they were a couple years ago.  No need for moderation, no need for some sort of reputation system... just good old discussion about science and the unknown.  You're all in with me on this I assume.

We need to come to some sort of agreement so that we can save the CoV.  As it's been stated before.  This site should be spreading like a VIRUS.  It should be interesting, fresh, and thought-provoking.

Do we need a reputation system?  Has it done us any good?
Do we need to go about banning and silencing people?
Should we switch to just the BBS format, or keep the mailing list?

What can be done to stop the current arguements and posts ruining the CoV?
What can be done in the future to prevent this?

I personally would rather things not be moderated, and just have everyone 'play nice,' like it used to be, but obviously that's not going to be happening.  So everyone who has an opinion on this matter, what is your solution?  (It would be best if Hermit and Joe didn't start arguing on this post... so guys... don't.  Just don't even say anything that would possibly inflame the other.  It's not worth it.)

I think we need to do something now.  I'm not sure the CoV can really afford another problem like last time.  Lets stop this one early... please.
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rhinoceros
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Re: virus: CoV - The Clean-Up Plan.
« Reply #1 on: 2004-06-06 00:09:30 »
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I'll post my answers to Elven's questions and suggestions ASAP. In the
meanwhile, there are already two threads dealing with this issue which
are still alive, and we wouldn't want to repeat the same things from
scratch. The other two threads can be found here:

Reading the list
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=30419
There are several posts here with a wide view of the issue.

Concept
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=30448
In this thread, the discussion has proceeded to specific technical
suggestions.


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Re:CoV - The Clean-Up Plan.
« Reply #2 on: 2004-06-06 01:44:05 »
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I think the main problem with the reputation system is that when new people join it they will enter their ratings for eveyone, most people will recieve a 5 as they are unknown to them.
I think it might be a good idea to have a minimum number of posts something like 20, before you can join the meridion. Kinda let people get to know each other first, It might also be a good idea to drop people from the meridion if they havent posted in a while, to help keep the reputation system more active, and not keep people set in one place forever.

I think the idea of implementing the rep system and karma were just an experiment to see if the CoV could self govern itself.
It would be good to expand on the experiment rather than to just get rid of it altogether.
I'm not so sure if changing the mailing list is such a great idea either, if people could just act like grown ups we wouldnt have this problem.
but lets face it, this has gone on long enough.
I think if someone strays from the topic or it starts to look nasty they can be dropped from the list until the thread has become inactive.
I'm not so sure how technically difficult this would be however so i'll leave that to the experts.
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rhinoceros
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Re:CoV - The Clean-Up Plan.
« Reply #3 on: 2004-06-06 11:23:16 »
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[Kid-A]
I think the main problem with the reputation system is that when new people join it they will enter their ratings for eveyone, most people will recieve a 5 as they are unknown to them.

[rhinoceros]
A digression: About Meridion, see also the "Concept" thread.
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=30448

In fact new people don't rate many (you can check for yourself) but the effect you describe is because "5" is the default base-rating. It was meant to be so, so that other new people who have joined the system get a statistically heavy 5, as if everyone has rated them with a 5, rather than a widely fluctuating rating by only a few.

I think that if we are to find a main problem with how new people rate others it is that after their first visit they soon forget about Meridion. The "cure" -- if one is needed -- is to make Meridion matter more in practice.


[Kid-A]
I think it might be a good idea to have a minimum number of posts something like 20, before you can join the meridion. Kinda let people get to know each other first,

[rhinoceros]
I think a more empirically real problem is that the new ones are not rated at all by most -- it is not that they are rated too soon. But your idea may have merit for another reason: as an anti-inflationary measure for people who -- for whatever reason -- won't stick around for long.


[Kid-A]
It might also be a good idea to drop people from the meridion if they havent posted in a while, to help keep the reputation system more active, and not keep people set in one place forever.

[rhinoceros]
I have argued for this idea in the "Concept" thread, reply #4.


[Kid-A]
I think the idea of implementing the rep system and karma were just an experiment to see if the CoV could self govern itself.
It would be good to expand on the experiment rather than to just get rid of it altogether.

[rhinoceros]
Heh, self-government may be an overstatement, but yes, the Meridion has been used in a few occasions to get a reading of where things stand when all talk has been done -- since people sometimes can stick to a lost argument for ever. Even when we don't "use" Meridion and let a situation continue indefinitely, the readings are still there.

The karma has never been used for anything else except giving the visitor/reader of the posts a quick clue about where they stand in regard to most CoV people.


[Kid-A]
I'm not so sure if changing the mailing list is such a great idea either, if people could just act like grown ups we wouldnt have this problem. but lets face it, this has gone on long enough.

I think if someone strays from the topic or it starts to look nasty they can be dropped from the list until the thread has become inactive. I'm not so sure how technically difficult this would be however so i'll leave that to the experts.

[rhinoceros]
More thoughts on this one you can find also in the "Concept" thread.

Since there is no other mechanism to conclude this discussion we are doing here at this moment, don't forget to nominate "the experts" in Meridion after hearing what's in their mind. Maybe "the experts" will be asked to discuss it formally and decide to *do* something at some point.

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Re: virus: Re:CoV - The Clean-Up Plan.
« Reply #4 on: 2004-06-06 12:18:21 »
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Note: if we put this system in place, we'll run into the same problem kuro5hin did with anonymous troll accounts.

We'll need to implement a referral system shortly afterwards.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
rhinoceros
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Re:CoV - The Clean-Up Plan.
« Reply #5 on: 2004-06-06 12:48:29 »
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[Elvensage]
Alright guys, I think as a group once and for all we should come to a conclusion on what we want to do with the CoV.  We have discussed a lot, yet little has honestly changed within the last couple years.  The CoV is no longer, and hasn't been, the place I joined.  You all know this, you all most likely feel like I do.  Remember all the great posts taht filled the CoV before?  Nothing but non-stop "nerdom" to fulfill the curious sides of us all.

[rhinoceros]
Good point, but it remains to be seen how we arrive at that conclusion. How we decide. Unless you expect that we will arrive at a consensus at the end of this thread (and hopefully not to a different consensus at the end of another thread), we will have to get technical.


[Elvensage]
I want that back.  I wish things could return to where they were a couple years ago.  No need for moderation, no need for some sort of reputation system... just good old discussion about science and the unknown.  You're all in with me on this I assume.

[rhinoceros]
We had our fair share of shitstorms and irrelevancies a couple years ago and many times before that. We will probably have then in the future too, but if at least we don't have *the same* ones it may be an improvement.


[Elvensage]
We need to come to some sort of agreement so that we can save the CoV.  As it's been stated before.  This site should be spreading like a VIRUS.  It should be interesting, fresh, and thought-provoking.

[rhinoceros]
I suspect that most memetic viruses have a lot of hard work behind them.  The ones which seem to spread spontaneously are those which take a free ride on our primitive genetic traits. We don't have one of those.


[Elvensage]
Do we need a reputation system?  Has it done us any good?

[rhinoceros]
Yes. The reputation system gives a perspective. Without it, what the visitors see is only the visibility of the most vocal ones. It has also made it possible for some people to realize that their beliefs cannot get through in this place -- at least those who had the mental facilities to realize that.

The Meridion has also resolved problems by making decisions in the very few cases that it was used for that purpose.


[Elvensage]
Do we need to go about banning and silencing people?

[rhinoceros]
Generally, there are cases where we may have to do just that in one form or another. It is a question of weighing-in the values involved.

I remember an incident many-many years ago (heh, was that when the Amazon jungle was a flowerpot with a fern?), when I was sailing in a ferry-boat with a girl, and my state of happiness was significantly tempered when an old guy with a distinct stink sat accross us and started muttering something unintelligible, dribbling on us. Our sense of politeness and the thought that the man needed to talk kept us stuck there -- what I did was giving up on the goals of my trip. But as I said, that was many years ago; I have learned better since.

I think that was a case of a "Geek Social Fallacy"

http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html


I also addressed the question of weighing-in the values involved in the "Reading the list" thread, reply #6.

http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=30419


[Elvensage]
Should we switch to just the BBS format, or keep the mailing list?

[rhinoceros]
This is largely technical. The mailing list does has benefits and drawbacks. In the past, some thought was given to phasing-out the list while making the BBS sections "opt out" lists. I think the reason it hasn't been done is that it required a lot of work.

Besides the technical issue, there is also a "policy" issue associated with the design: Should we aim for a more-or-less coherent CoV memeset (which will inevitably have to face frictions and critical decisions on the way), or should we go for a "disjoint" design where groups of virians can just walk past each other, being able to filter and ignore each other?

If we let it be implied that we are going for a coherent CoV memeset while we facilitate walking past each other, the visitor may draw the wrong conclusions, depending on the day of visit.


[Elvensage]
What can be done to stop the current arguements and posts ruining the CoV?
What can be done in the future to prevent this?

[rhinoceros]
I am sure if there was a silver bullet we would have found it years ago. Generally, we should not allow critical policy discussions end up inconclusively or handled as "special cases", we should hear, pay attention, remember, and build. This may take some work. The Meridion is one thing which must be used and made use of, because the four functions of arithmetic is one thing we can agree on.

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Re:CoV - The Clean-Up Plan.
« Reply #6 on: 2004-06-06 15:10:14 »
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[simul]
Note: if we put this system in place, we'll run into the same problem kuro5hin did with anonymous troll accounts.

We'll need to implement a referral system shortly afterwards.


[rhinoceros]
I don't know much about the system of kuro5hin but I remember Localroger telling Lucifer that our own system had advantages over that one.

The Meridion is not designed as a democratic system -- it is rather a system "designed to the task". Besides the issue of troll acounts, it has shown some increased resistance to legit member aggregations -- many of the individuals in a sub-group will have to earn high reputations before they can make any difference. If you examine the ratings closely, you will notice that that the system has been recently tested by 7-8 new members in a total of 69 without any action taken, and it seems that they are still earning their reputations in the old-fashioned way.

Of course we don't have thousands of members like kuro5hin just yet, and Lucifer can afford to sit in front of the keyboard at the database. So far, the test looks promising. The addition of a "must post" requirement might be good.

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Re: virus: Re:CoV - The Clean-Up Plan.
« Reply #7 on: 2004-06-06 17:30:54 »
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The weakness is the dependance on a single arbiter, Lucifer, in too many cases.  Distributing the load to high-rep members is more sustainable.

I notice that the polls work well for that.

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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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Re:CoV - The Clean-Up Plan.
« Reply #8 on: 2004-06-06 20:21:07 »
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If we want to go ahead and use the rating system, how do we go about getting users to see it more?  Perhaps a modified index.html that pops up the reputation system every 8-10 times you login the forum or something?  Atleast that would serve as a constant reminder.  (And I could program that if need be.)

Although that still doesn't cover the mailing list?  Perhaps we could set up a cron job so every month a message is sent to all list members reminding them of the reputation system?




But!  This still doesn't help us with the current conflict.

I've suggested it a few times now.  Perhaps we should put up a 'law' where Joe and Hermit are not allowed to respond to each other for a given period of time.  Furthermore to clean up the list, make it so all political discussion is posted on the serious business board again.

Opinions?

Ever more so:
Will the two arguing parties agree to this?
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Re: virus: Re:CoV - The Clean-Up Plan.
« Reply #9 on: 2004-06-06 20:46:09 »
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[[ author reputation (1.58) beneath threshold (3)... display message ]]

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ElvenSage
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Re:CoV - The Clean-Up Plan.
« Reply #10 on: 2004-06-06 20:49:41 »
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I personally believe both of you are the problem.  But, I respect you for agreeing with it.  Thank you Joe.
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