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Topic: Re: virus: Truth and Fiction (Read 836 times) |
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hkhenson@rogers...
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Re: virus: Truth and Fiction
« on: 2004-05-24 20:22:21 » |
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At 12:39 AM 24/05/04 -0400, you wrote:
>For real ?
Yes.
>David McFadzean wrote:
>>
>>From: "Keith Henson" <<mailto:hkhenson@rogers.com>hkhenson@rogers.com
>>>
>>>I have been told that the story of scientology vs the net is too weird to
>>>be considered as fiction.
>>
>>Isn't the (presumably fictional) Scientology doctrine vastly stranger
>>than reality? I would say that if it turned out to be all true then
>>that would be stranger than much fiction (but still not all fiction).
I wasn't thinking about scientology's nutty "space cooties" doctrine, just
their battle with the net mostly on alt.religion.scientology. One of the
several things a crew led by Gavino Idda did was to spam/forge between 2.5
and 4 million articles into the news group. This happened between Nov.
1998 and Oct 1999. Even using slave labor, they spent on the order of
$250,000 on this project. Most of the postings were canceled, but hundreds
of thousands of them made it onto Google-groups where they can be found to
this day.
Typical example of that flood forged in my name,
Re: NEW: Senior Thesis on Scientology & Totalitarianism (GOOD ...
Accusingly it recounted outta an aisle. How do they alarm between me
anymore? Have we knowed you? Between
no falsehood upon no fanaticism every pale pocket uttered a bringing from a
gumption, and aboard ...
alt.religion.scientology - 24 May 1999 by Keith Henson - View Thread (248
articles)
Keith Henson
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simul
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Re: virus: Truth and Fiction
« Reply #1 on: 2004-05-25 11:29:04 » |
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Slave labor? If someone is controlled only via memes and not via physical force, is it slavery?
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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rhinoceros
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Re: virus: Truth and Fiction
« Reply #2 on: 2004-05-25 16:46:32 » |
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[hkhenson] One of the several things a crew led by Gavino Idda did was to spam/forge between 2.5 and 4 million articles into the news group. This happened between Nov. 1998 and Oct 1999. Even using slave labor, they spent on the order of $250,000 on this project.
[simul] Slave labor? If someone is controlled only via memes and not via physical force, is it slavery?
[rhinoceros] Apparenty what Keith meant was "Even if they used slave labor, they would have spent on the order of $250,000 on this project."
But your question is still interesting. I think there was a time when a slave ideology came to sound like the natural order of things to most second or third generation slaves -- the way Dog Almighty intended them to be.
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hkhenson@rogers...
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Re: virus: Truth and Fiction
« Reply #3 on: 2004-05-25 20:26:13 » |
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At 11:29 AM 25/05/04 -0400, Erik wrote:
>Slave labor? If someone is controlled only via memes and not via physical
>force, is it slavery?
You would have to make up your own mind on this subject.
What cults (including scientology) do is to provide intense attention. In
some people this has about the same effect as addictive drugs.
People in cults do things (such as cutting off their balls or blowing
themselves up) that are clearly against the interest of their genes.
Keith Henson
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simul
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Re: virus: Truth and Fiction
« Reply #4 on: 2004-05-26 11:22:10 » |
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>Slave labor? If someone is controlled only via memes and not via physical
>force, is it slavery?
: You would have to make up your
: own mind on this subject.
Oh, so you're not going to try and convince me? Heh.
Why do people work hard all day for access to more expensive cars, even though income levels above 50,000 are negatively correlated with lifespan and reproduction?
Because they're part of a “cult-ure”.
Society is a hodgepodge of cults. The question, for me, is not “whether” cults are good or bad. The question is which cult do I feel like being a member of today?
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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hkhenson@rogers...
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Re: virus: Truth and Fiction
« Reply #5 on: 2004-05-26 21:04:44 » |
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At 11:22 AM 26/05/04 -0400, you wrote:
> >Slave labor? If someone is controlled only via memes and not via physical
> >force, is it slavery?
>
>: You would have to make up your
>: own mind on this subject.
>
>Oh, so you're not going to try and convince me? Heh.
You cut:
"What cults (including scientology) do is to provide intense attention. In
some people this has about the same effect as addictive drugs.
"People in cults do things (such as cutting off their balls or blowing
themselves up) that are clearly against the interest of their genes."
>Why do people work hard all day for access to more expensive cars, even
>though income levels above 50,000 are negatively correlated with lifespan
>and reproduction?
Because the psychological mechanisms that induce us to work hard today were
shaped by the stone age environment. Human behavior would be selected to
be rational from the gene's viewpoint if the current environment lasted a
million years. In the case of working hard for high income, part of that
is probably adaption to high latitude winters. Working as hard as you
could storing up food and fuel was required to get you (and your kids)
though the winter.
Expensive cars are contemporary status symbols, but people have been
working for status probably back to the split with the chimps. Nothing
correlates more with reproductive success in a primitive environment than
having high status.
>Because they're part of a "cult-ure".
>
>Society is a hodgepodge of cults. The question, for me, is not "whether"
>cults are good or bad. The question is which cult do I feel like being a
>member of today?
I have cause to object to your statement. Stick my name in Google to see
why. Cults damages the people in them, but cults also damage the larger
society they are in because intense cults get their member's loyalty ahead
of family and country. This means cult members have far less inhibition
about breaking the rules of the larger society. Check out scientologist
Reed Slatkin, who ran the largest Ponzi scam on record. (Over $250
million.) http://www.slatkinfraud.com/index.php
There is a use for the word "cult" that you are abusing by making it all
inclusive.
Keith Henson
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simul
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Re: virus: Truth and Fiction
« Reply #6 on: 2004-05-28 15:00:41 » |
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So, basically it's OK if someone works for attention and status when that status is obtained via a car, but not when that status is a cult? I see them as the same.
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Henson <hkhenson@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:04:44
To:virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re: virus: Truth and Fiction
At 11:22 AM 26/05/04 -0400, you wrote:
> >Slave labor? If someone is controlled only via memes and not via physical
> >force, is it slavery?
>
>: You would have to make up your
>: own mind on this subject.
>
>Oh, so you're not going to try and convince me? Heh.
You cut:
"What cults (including scientology) do is to provide intense attention. In
some people this has about the same effect as addictive drugs.
"People in cults do things (such as cutting off their balls or blowing
themselves up) that are clearly against the interest of their genes."
>Why do people work hard all day for access to more expensive cars, even
>though income levels above 50,000 are negatively correlated with lifespan
>and reproduction?
Because the psychological mechanisms that induce us to work hard today were
shaped by the stone age environment. Human behavior would be selected to
be rational from the gene's viewpoint if the current environment lasted a
million years. In the case of working hard for high income, part of that
is probably adaption to high latitude winters. Working as hard as you
could storing up food and fuel was required to get you (and your kids)
though the winter.
Expensive cars are contemporary status symbols, but people have been
working for status probably back to the split with the chimps. Nothing
correlates more with reproductive success in a primitive environment than
having high status.
>Because they're part of a "cult-ure".
>
>Society is a hodgepodge of cults. The question, for me, is not "whether"
>cults are good or bad. The question is which cult do I feel like being a
>member of today?
I have cause to object to your statement. Stick my name in Google to see
why. Cults damages the people in them, but cults also damage the larger
society they are in because intense cults get their member's loyalty ahead
of family and country. This means cult members have far less inhibition
about breaking the rules of the larger society. Check out scientologist
Reed Slatkin, who ran the largest Ponzi scam on record. (Over $250
million.) http://www.slatkinfraud.com/index.php
There is a use for the word "cult" that you are abusing by making it all
inclusive.
Keith Henson
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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rhinoceros
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Re: virus: Truth and Fiction
« Reply #7 on: 2004-05-28 17:18:22 » |
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[simul]
So, basically it's OK if someone works for attention and status when that status is obtained via a car, but not when that status is a cult? I see them as the same.
[rhinoceros]
I think it is neither OK nor not OK. It is basically an evolutionary argument -- it tries to figure out what is going on, but doesn't tell you what you *should* do. This was probably the most important misconception which didn't let Sociobiology (the Evolutionary Psychology of the 60s) get off the ground. A naturalist fallacy which made Sociobiology look "normative", a lot like Social Darwinism.
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rhinoceros
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Re: virus: Truth and Fiction
« Reply #8 on: 2004-05-30 16:11:37 » |
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[rhinoceros 1] It is basically an evolutionary argument -- it tries to figure out what is going on, but doesn't tell you what you *should* do. This was probably the most important misconception which didn't let Sociobiology (the Evolutionary Psychology of the 60s) get off the ground. A naturalist fallacy which made Sociobiology look "normative", a lot like Social Darwinism.
[rhinoceros 2] Here is an application of the naturalistic fallacy -- sociobilogy at its worst. I think going carefully through the argument can be instructive. The article is from the notorious Mankind Quarterly, and I found it in the Internet Archive since the mankind.org site does not seem to work.
http://tinyurl.com/2saxb
Discrimination and Differentiation:
An Ethical and Biological Issue
This paper discusses the ethical and biological implications of the concept of discrimination. The author perceives freedom of speech and action as endangered by prevailing anti-discrimination laws and notes that certain of these run counter to sociobiological reality.
<snip>
Discrimination is a Natural Process
The common denominator among all antidiscrimination movements, whether they are concerned with skin color, income, sex, individual ability, or dysfunctional behaviors, is that they resolutely refuse to honor traditional common sense distinctions that have helped keep societies on an even keel. They object to sodomy laws, for instance, on the grounds that such laws "discriminate" against homosexuals. But that is precisely the point: the need to protect society (and its children) against the kind of dysfunctional behavior which spreads disease and social dissolution. Vagrancy laws "discriminate" against vagrants. Laws to institutionalize the insane "discriminate" against the insane, and so on. Of course, when a society no longer discriminates against the insane by institutionalizing them, it ends up with more vagrants.
<snip>
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simul
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Re: virus: Truth and Fiction
« Reply #9 on: 2004-05-31 13:00:24 » |
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: societies on an even keel. They
: object to sodomy laws, for
: instance, on the grounds that
: such laws "discriminate" against
: homosexuals. But that is precisely
I don't see how two consenting adults doing whatever they want to do spreads some sort of social problem.
Likewise, an insane or vagrant person should only be incarcerated if and when he is a danger to others.
This is all an extension and justification of “the doctrine of preemption” ... and it's a load of ethical horse crap.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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hkhenson@rogers...
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Re: virus: Truth and Fiction
« Reply #11 on: 2004-05-31 20:04:06 » |
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At 03:00 PM 28/05/04 -0400, you wrote:
>So, basically it's OK if someone works for attention and status when that
>status is obtained via a car, but not when that status is a cult? I see
>them as the same.
At one level yes, at another no. Contrast someone who has worked hard and
smart and as a result obtained status such as winning the Nobel prize with
someone who has paid scientology half a million dollars and spent half his
life becoming an OT 8. One of them has real status in the real world. The
other has "real" status in the space cootie cult--which doesn't mean squat
outside the cult.
It is a bit like the difference between real food and artificial sweetener.
Keith Henson
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Keith Henson <hkhenson@rogers.com>
>Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:04:44
>To:virus@lucifer.com
>Subject: Re: virus: Truth and Fiction
>
>At 11:22 AM 26/05/04 -0400, you wrote:
>
> > >Slave labor? If someone is controlled only via memes and not via physical
> > >force, is it slavery?
> >
> >: You would have to make up your
> >: own mind on this subject.
> >
> >Oh, so you're not going to try and convince me? Heh.
>
>You cut:
>
>"What cults (including scientology) do is to provide intense attention. In
>some people this has about the same effect as addictive drugs.
>
>"People in cults do things (such as cutting off their balls or blowing
>themselves up) that are clearly against the interest of their genes."
>
>
> >Why do people work hard all day for access to more expensive cars, even
> >though income levels above 50,000 are negatively correlated with lifespan
> >and reproduction?
>
>Because the psychological mechanisms that induce us to work hard today were
>shaped by the stone age environment. Human behavior would be selected to
>be rational from the gene's viewpoint if the current environment lasted a
>million years. In the case of working hard for high income, part of that
>is probably adaption to high latitude winters. Working as hard as you
>could storing up food and fuel was required to get you (and your kids)
>though the winter.
>
>Expensive cars are contemporary status symbols, but people have been
>working for status probably back to the split with the chimps. Nothing
>correlates more with reproductive success in a primitive environment than
>having high status.
>
> >Because they're part of a "cult-ure".
> >
> >Society is a hodgepodge of cults. The question, for me, is not "whether"
> >cults are good or bad. The question is which cult do I feel like being a
> >member of today?
>
>I have cause to object to your statement. Stick my name in Google to see
>why. Cults damages the people in them, but cults also damage the larger
>society they are in because intense cults get their member's loyalty ahead
>of family and country. This means cult members have far less inhibition
>about breaking the rules of the larger society. Check out scientologist
>Reed Slatkin, who ran the largest Ponzi scam on record. (Over $250
>million.) http://www.slatkinfraud.com/index.php
>
>There is a use for the word "cult" that you are abusing by making it all
>inclusive.
>
>Keith Henson
>
>
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>To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
><http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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rhinoceros
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Re: virus: Truth and Fiction
« Reply #12 on: 2004-06-03 08:42:30 » |
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[Joe Dees]
Have you ever heard of "Future Dangerousness"? It is a policy under which clearly unrehabilitated murderers, rapists and child molesters are kept incarcerated beyond their sentences, due to the clear and present danger they pose to society at large were they to be released into it. It is very controversial. Here is a URL that leads to a lengthy explication of the methodologies involved:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/profiling/danger/1.html?sect=20
[rhinoceros]
My argument was *not* about discrimination against, say, a dangerous or disrupting psychotic on the basis of rational social considerations. My argument was against using the naturalistic falacy in evolutionary arguments such as the one in this paper:
[url]http://tinyurl.com/2saxb
Discrimination and Differentiation:
An Ethical and Biological Issue
This paper discusses the ethical and biological implications of the concept of discrimination. The author perceives freedom of speech and action as endangered by prevailing anti-discrimination laws and notes that certain of these run counter to sociobiological reality.
<snip>
I certainly am all for keeping psychotics out of my way or, at least, being able to keep myself out of their way without compromising much what I want to do with my life.
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Truth and Fiction
« Reply #13 on: 2004-06-03 10:19:18 » |
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[Joe Dees]
Have you ever heard of "Future Dangerousness"? It is a policy under which
clearly unrehabilitated murderers, rapists and child molesters are kept
incarcerated beyond their sentences, due to the clear and present danger
they pose to society at large were they to be released into it. It is very
controversial. Here is a URL that leads to a lengthy explication of the
methodologies involved:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/profiling/danger/1.html?sect=20
[Blunderov] Quite an interesting article.
Here in SA we have a crime problem and consequently there is pressure on the
authorities to reduce prison populations because of overcrowding. Just the
other a day a prisoner, who had been declared a habitual criminal, was
released on parole after serving only 8 years of a 15 year prison sentence
whereupon he murdered an elderly woman and robbed her. Not long ago, a woman
successfully sued the government (the first time this has been achieved)
because the police had previously failed to incarcerate a known offender who
had subsequently assaulted her.
In view of the uncertainty in predicting 'future dangerousness' it seems
excessive to increase prison sentences on the basis of the results. A
compromise might be to treat the released prisoner as if he was on parole
even though he had completed his sentence.
I once made a cursory investigation into whether there was any correlation
between testosterone levels and recidivism and indeed there did seem to be
one: declining levels of testosterone seem to track declining levels of
recidivism quite closely.
Does anyone know of any more detailed investigations into this possibility?
(In my observation, testosterone and alcohol make a very dangerous mixture.)
Best Regards
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simul
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Re: virus: Truth and Fiction
« Reply #14 on: 2004-06-03 11:54:42 » |
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All we need to reduce prison sentences is to have a simple rule: no one shall be incarcerated in a prison for a crime in which the guilty party did not physically harm or directly facilitate the physical harm of another person.
Crimes which fall outside that scope are punishable via rehabilitation, fine, civil service or any other means that complies with existing statues but does not involve prison time.
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