Sebby, your allusive contention that US black ops killed Nick Berg for a propaganda video sounds like the tinfoil-hat conspiracy theory moonbattery crowd, whose single rule is if something bad is done by the US, it must be actually worse, but if something bad is done by anyone else, it must actually be the US who did it. Next you'll be telling us that supersecret NAS air controllers, under presidential order, commandeered and flew those planes into the buildings on 9/11
Puh-LEEEZE! Hatred of a man can justify only so many ludicrous assertions about a country.
I'd also like to remark to Rhino that the biases of the writer do not alter the facts of the case; two teachers showed their students the Nick Berg beheading video, and were suspended for doing so.
rhinoceros Sent: 25 May 2004 12:21 AM [rhinoceros] Back in our own dark days here in Greece, I remember a friend was searched for "subversive books" when he went to do his military term and was commented when they found "The Good Soldier Sveik" by Jaroslav Hasek in his stuff. Hasek would have been happy to include this story of military intelligence in the book, like a mirror-in-a-mirror.
<q> Yossarian says, "You're talking about winning the war, and I am talking about winning the war and keeping alive." "Exactly," Clevinger snapped smugly. "And which do you think is more important?" "To whom?" Yossarian shot back. "It doesn't make a damn bit of difference who wins the war to someone who's dead." "I can't think of another attitude that could be depended upon to give greater comfort to the enemy." "The enemy," retorted Yossarian with weighted precision, "is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he's on."</q>
[Joe Dees] I'd also like to remark to Rhino that the biases of the writer do not alter the facts of the case; two teachers showed their students the Nick Berg beheading video, and were suspended for doing so.
[rhinoceros] You are right, and I called this point (showing violence to the students) a legit opinion which can be supported -- with other arguments than the ones used in the full article you posted.
Then I took the liberty to examine the author's arguments.
...no i havent Erik. i guess i'll just shutup and support bush then. sorry for being such a hypocrite. and thanks for illustrating the most difficult part of "UT-ism".
...do you donate time/money to each and every cause you have a position on?
...when people do donate money or time for the first time, was it a random thought that just popped into their heads an hour earlier? did they read or hear or think about somehting for the first time and rush out to contribute right then and there?
DrSebby. "Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows---- From: "Erik Aronesty" <erik@zoneedit.com> Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com To: "Church of Virus" <virus@lucifer.com> Subject: Re: virus: Warning Signals Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 11:33:26 -0400
<Dr. Sebby> : can be pushed WAY more than we : imagine, and still they will refuse : to voice any protest.
<Erik> So, have you, personally, passed out flyers, picketed, or worn a sandwich board and rang a bell?
Have you donated to the Kerry campaign or to the DNC?
NOTE: posting to newsgroups and BBS's (preaching to the choir) doesn't count.
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Given that we are under attack and at war, a certain fraying of nerves is understandable, but outright insanity is not. Lately, I have observed some fairly psychotic behavior in public places, mainly among the chattering classes, not among ordinary civilians who better understand that the terrorists mean to kill us and that appeasement is not an option.
For example, in the midst of a quiet cafe dinner, a soft-spoken artist friend suddenly began screaming: "I hate President Bush, I wish he was dead." Her face got red, and she screwed up her eyes. I was taken aback. Her rage was irrational and out of context; we had not been discussing the upcoming election or the ongoing war in Iraq. And, how could anyone be so angry, or rather so irrational, about a political figure?
Once, while lecturing in England, I found myself dining out with an anti-Apartheid activist at the very moment that Nelson Mandela was released from jail. This scholar literally climbed onto the table and roared for more than 5 full minutes. She kept pumping the air with her fist. Her voice became coarse. I could not understand such ferocity and pent-up emotion unleashed so bizarrely in public.
I can understand marshalling arguments, point by point, against a particular political policy. I can understand faulting President Bush for either not going far enough to win the war in Iraq or daring to begin that war at all--as long as the person is speaking in a reasonable, rational way. I can respect a balanced analysis--such as the recent one by Mark Helprin in the pages of the Wall Street Journal (5/17/04) in which he describes "the Democrats (as) guilty of ideological confusion about self-defense, the Republicans of willful disdain for reflection, and both... for subjecting the serious business in the life of a nation to coarse partisanship."
But I cannot understand what is going on when presumably enlightened artists and scholars reduce complex realities to slogans, and create straw men against which to vent vast, irrational rage. This is precisely what frenzied Islamist mobs do when they burn the American flag and lynch and mutilate corpses of American soldiers.
The western multiculturalists insist that we have dangerously "humiliated" the Iraqi male prisoners because we put women in charge of naked men and then subjected those naked men to further humiliation by posing them in pornography-like photographs, and forcing some men to wear pink women's undergarments.
In my view, this is possibly the result of a culture saturated with runaway pornography. It is disgusting and I oppose it, but it does not compare to the be-heading of Daniel Pearl and Nicholas Berg or to the real torture practiced by Saddam Hussein in Abu Graib and most Arab and Muslim despots against their own people.
The multiculturalists do not protest at all when male Palestinian terrorists dress as women in order to kill Israelis (which they have done at many an Israeli checkpoint). They did not condemn the Palestinian terrorists who shot and killed an eight-month pregnant Israeli woman and her four children, aged 2 to 11 at point-blank range; rather, they blamed the woman for "provoking" her own murder by living in Gaza. The multi-cultis did not cry "humiliation foul" when two other Palestinian terrorists dressed as women in order to shoot down the mourners at this poor woman's funeral.
The left-liberal Western media (heavily influenced by the Left Academy) is not behaving objectively or rationally when it not only fails to note that "pornography" is really "torture," but ardently defends the rights of pornographers and traffickers; our Talking Heads worship the First Amendment and are "sex-positive" in outlook. They do not condemn torture when Arabs or Muslims practice it, only when it is practiced, even to a much lesser extent, by America. (By the way, I oppose torture in all but the most extreme of circumstances. I am demanding that our intellectuals eschew double standards and be even-handed with their condemnations).
Something has gone very wrong in America among its Thinking Classes who hate the very country that allows them to publicly criticize its policies and who love those countries in which dissent is punished by torture and execution. Stalinism, Hitlerism, totalitarianism--long nurtured by the former Soviet Union through both the United Nations, the Arab League, and the PLO--are living and breathing among our intellectuals, academics, and left-liberal media. American intellectuals also slavishly follow the lead of their European counterparts.
As a psychologist, I must ask: are our intellectuals brainwashed? What cult has done this to them? How might they be de-programmed? Are such accomplished and privileged adults still angry at their parents, spouses, or employers or are they angry at themselves for having failed to "overthrow capitalism" in their lifetime? If so, do they think that we all deserve to die for their failure? Do they honestly believe that the jihadists will provide the socialist or feminist Paradise for which they long?
I do not think I can persuade such intellectuals to understand that their lives and ways of life are in serious danger and that self-defense is crucial; that there is nothing we can do that will "appease" Islamist rage (sacrifice Israel, retreat from Iraq and Afghanistan, veil our women, allow Arab honor killings to be carried out in both Eurabia and North America).
It is clear: The terrorists have embarked on a program to kill all non-Muslim infidels--it's precisely what al-Zarquawi said on the video before he be-headed Nicholas Berg--and the danger coming our way is even greater from Muslim Indonesia.
What I can and must do is suggest--no implore--President Bush to send more troops to Iraq immediately and to use all means at our disposal to stop the Islamists in their tracks--at least for another 500 years. Otherwise, we will be annihilated.
...i'll make this brief as possible. my best 'guess' as to some things that have happened....
1. 9-11 was known by the bush admin...all they probably knew was that some planes were going to be hijacked...and maybe knew or guessed they would be flown into something. they likely did NOT know how severe the damage would be.
2. they knew this was being planned, and allowed it to happen so as to create the perfect alibi for attacking iraq...a quick and useless assault/food drop mission on pakistan...and then the REAL objective.
3. the abu-graib prison fiasco was not an expected event...and very hurtful to our occupation and thus bush's interests.
4. berg beheading orchestrated by CIA ops....probably falsified a record saying they let him out of their custody, in reality just kept him, killed him (humanely at least) and then made this b.s. video blaming the enemy so as to swell support not so much for our troops but our very presence there.
5. this whole iraq situation exists primarily to create a large cash flow for bush's good ol' boy friends and his own long term family dynasty as well as those in the 'inner-circle'. parallel interest might be a born-again christian revival of the crusades. i personally dont like islam either but there are better ways of dealing with hornet nests than wading into them with your fists swinging. there ya go...that's what my best guess is.
...my question to you is; how do you explain all the very odd oddities regarding the beheading video? especially the total lack of blood.
Sebby, your allusive contention that US black ops killed Nick Berg for a propaganda video sounds like the tinfoil-hat conspiracy theory moonbattery crowd, whose single rule is if something bad is done by the US, it must be actually worse, but if something bad is done by anyone else, it must actually be the US who did it. Next you'll be telling us that supersecret NAS air controllers, under presidential order, commandeered and flew those planes into the buildings on 9/11
Puh-LEEEZE! Hatred of a man can justify only so many ludicrous assertions about a country.
_________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
...i'll make this brief as possible. my best 'guess' as to some things that have happened....
1. 9-11 was known by the bush admin...all they probably knew was that some planes were going to be hijacked...and maybe knew or guessed they would be flown into something. they likely did NOT know how severe the damage would be.
(Joe) They knew that aircraft hijackings were included in a list of terror plans upon which Al Qaeda was working, but they had no inkling of a potential target, ir even that there WAS a target (beyond the planes themselves). Al Qaeda had not previously used aircraft as missiles; the US administration most likely surmised that any planes hijacked would subsequently be employed as leverage in an attempt to get the US to release, say, Abdul Rahman, and/or some other terrorists, or to accede to other demands.
2. they knew this was being planned, and allowed it to happen so as to create the perfect alibi for attacking iraq...a quick and useless assault/food drop mission on pakistan...and then the REAL objective.
They knew that many things were being planned, but not any specifics, and, most precisely, not that this specific action was being planned.
3. the abu-graib prison fiasco was not an expected event...and very hurtful to our occupation and thus bush's interests.
Rather, it has been hurtful to American interests, and the interests of Iraqis, democracy, and Iraqi democracy (these being the American interests).
4. berg beheading orchestrated by CIA ops....probably falsified a record saying they let him out of their custody, in reality just kept him, killed him (humanely at least) and then made this b.s. video blaming the enemy so as to swell support not so much for our troops but our very presence there.
(Joe) Simply unbelievable. Berg was witnessed, by acquaintances, in a Baghdad internet cafe subsequent to his release, emailing his parents (they received the email - we know this because he discussed some of the contents with his acquaintances - like his concern over accepting the US offer of a plane ride out due to his concern over the trip to the Baghdad airport via 'RPG Alley", and his decision to attempt an overland exit through Syria instead)
5. this whole iraq situation exists primarily to create a large cash flow for bush's good ol' boy friends and his own long term family dynasty as well as those in the 'inner-circle'. parallel interest might be a born-again christian revival of the crusades. i personally dont like islam either but there are better ways of dealing with hornet nests than wading into them with your fists swinging. there ya go...that's what my best guess is.
I actually think that there were many reasons, but none of them have to do with oil (except on the bribed France, Germany and high-UN-official obstructionist side). Nor do they have to do with fat contracts for Halliburton or Bechtol (who are both out of the top five US corporations in contract value, well below the 5 billion mark combined). They have to do with: 1) Preserving the credibility of UN resolutions in spite of itself 2) Paying a debt of honor and credibility that the US owed to the democracy-desiring Iraqis who, answering to a US call, revolted in Iraq at the end of Gulf War I and actually seized 14 of 16 iraqi provinces, only to have the republican guard tank battalions that the US let out of the Kuwaiti trap drive back and slaughter a quarter million of them. 3) Preventing Saddam Hussein from attacking the US by supplying terrorist groups with WMD's. 4) Relieving the US of the financial burden of maintaining no-fly-zones without end, which the US dared not remove for fear that Saddam would go all Rwanda on the Shi'ites and Kurds the moment we tried it, and that the US would be blamed for the slaughter. 5) Ending the need for the UN sanctions the burden of which Saddam had managed to place squarely on the backs those of his own people that he was trying to kill anyway, both so he could spend the money on 50 palaces, coddling his military, paying Palestinian terrorists to blow up Iseaelis, and pursuing WMD programs, and so he could gain propaganda advantage by blaming the deaths of the intentionally neglected Shi'ites and Kurds on the Un sanctions, even though, if he had spent the oil-for-food mioney for its intended purpose, food, water and medicine could've been supplied to all of the Irasqi people, with funds left over.
...my question to you is; how do you explain all the very odd oddities regarding the beheading video? especially the total lack of blood.
I reviewed the video again. Nick Berg is definitely alive and moving. The sound track is badly matched; the 'Allahu Ackbars' and the screaming begin before Nick Berg is pushed over and the neck sawing begins. There is a lot of blood, greatly obscured by a dark floor, and jugular spurts would've been obscured by the cap in the foreground and the feet of one jihadi, as well as by the camera angle. Also, there is clearly blood dripping from the severed head when it is held up to the camers.
Considering the WTC had been attacked before by the same gang, there'd have to be a pack of fuckwit morons working at the Pentagon for them not to realize that the WTC was on a list of potential targets.
They had time and warning enough to shoot those planes down.
Many people think that the plane destined for D.C. was shot down. There were some witnesses.
I think that the order to shoot the planes down was deliberately withheld. --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
<Dr. Sebby> ...do you donate time/money to each and every cause you have a position on?
<Erik> When someone is calling out others for lack of effort on an issue, it's usually time for them to step up to the plate. --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
Simul, the 1993 (8 years earlier) attack on the WTC was masterminded by the blind Egyptian cleric Omar Abdul Rahman; he and his cohorts had been apprehended, tried and jailed for years when the WTC attack came. Also, it is strongly suspected that, unlike with 9/11, which was masterminded by Al Qaeda, that Saddam was behind th 1993 attack. Also notice that the modus of the two attacks was quite different; the 1993 attack was perpetrated via a truckbomb driven into the basement parking garage, while 9/11 involved terrorists flying commandeered airliners into the towers. Quite dissimilar, and hard to draw any lessons from the first that would be of use in preventing the second.
It is surpassingly difficult for a president to give an order to shoot down an airliner full of innocent passangers before any catastrophe connected to commandeered airliners has occurred. I'm quite sure that such an order would, considering the disastrous precedent that has now been set, be quickly forthcoming should the sequence of events repeat themselves (which, given both a heightened security awareness and an increased willingness to act to prevent or stop such occurrences on the part of both airline companies and airliner passengers and crew, seems highly unlikely).
...so as to put an end to such a message? well done. the teeming masses are a group unto themselves. my voice and efforts are a bit out of place these days...a 100 yrs or so. in present day, i'd be burned at the stake if people knew my true positions...although those positions are extremely rational, responsible and would result in a much happier and prosperous life. but in this world of "caring, christian" individuals who wont even be an organ donor in the case they die, it is hard to find much support for the measures i see as wise. so there is no place for me on the inside without me having to pretend and lie to remain there unhated. so for now i prefer to keep my effect to inspired words. before you call 'hypocrite' ....just how many things do you speak for and offer no "tangible" support? yeah, that's what i thought. unless youre a liar, we dont even have time enough to 'give' to every issue we care about. so get off my back why dont ya?
DrSebby. "Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows---- From: "Erik Aronesty" <erik@zoneedit.com> Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com To: "Church of Virus" <virus@lucifer.com> Subject: Re: virus: Warning Signals Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:26:23 -0400
<Dr. Sebby> ...do you donate time/money to each and every cause you have a position on?
<Erik> When someone is calling out others for lack of effort on an issue, it's usually time for them to step up to the plate. --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
...i'll make this brief as possible. my best 'guess' as to some things that
have happened....
[Blunderov] I agree with you DrSebby.
Whilst there is no definitive evidence as to who might have produced the Berg extravaganza, that video is highly suspect. All the events surrounding it are highly suspicious too. And if one examines (what is known of) the consistent history of the CIA and black operations it is entirely within the realms of possibility that they had something to do with it.
It's not impossible, though that it was some freelance outfit. Many corporate interests are heavily vested in certain outcomes. Some might conceivably wish to give matters a helping hand where possible. And there is a powerful meme in American culture of the rebel-hero who steps outside the rules in order to realize 'true' <wholesome ideal>.
Of course, it may be that some itinerant Islamist group found themselves with a surplus American corpse on their hands and decided to make the most capital they could. Waste not, want not.
But in the detective thrillers the ace detective always asks these telling questions:
Who was the last one to see the victim alive? Who stood most to gain from the deed? Are those people in fact the same person?