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Topic: RE: virus: Re: virus: Déja vu All Over Again in Haiti (Read 1104 times) |
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DrSebby
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RE: virus: Re: virus: Déja vu All Over Again in Haiti
« on: 2004-03-06 09:12:13 » |
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....although the guy was apparently quite the corrupt cunt. i suspect that
the US govt. waits for a natural weakness and THEN slip into the situation.
Haiti has been a long standing example of earthly hell. NOTHING we could do
could make it worse at this point...so all complaints are somewhat
discountable imo.
DrSebby.
"Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Erik Aronesty" <erik@zoneedit.com>
Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: virus: Re: virus: Déja vu All Over Again in Haiti
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:34:00 -0400
We just didn't want a populist president in Haiti.
The word is that we kidnapped the president.
Standard US imperialist pattern: use the CIA to prop up a dictator, wait
until he ruins country, then “rescue” the country with an invasion.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jei <jei@cc.hut.fi>
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:25:21
To:virus@lucifer.com
Subject: virus: Déja vu All Over Again in Haiti
http://www.independent.org/tii/news/040302Eland.html
Déja vu All Over Again in Haiti
By Ivan Eland
When Americans see unrest, violence, rebellion or civil war in other nations
on the TV news, they often rightly sympathize with the plight of the foreign
citizens put at risk. Yet news is.well,.news, not history. Americans rarely
realize that their own government, somewhere along the line, most likely
contributed to the crisis du jour.
The United States is a superpower that meddles frequently-either overtly or
covertly-in the business of nations all over the world. Americans just
assume that such interventions have a positive effect in the countries
concerned. All to often, however, what seemed to U.S. policymakers like a
good idea at the time turns out to be counterproductive, and sometimes
disastrous, in the long-term. For example, in the 1980s, the United States
helped Iraq, which had invaded Iran, defeat and weaken that chief regional
rival-all the while looking the other way when Iraq used poison gas against
Iran and Iranian supported Iraqi Kurds. No longer worried about Iran after
that victory, Iraq was then free to invade Kuwait, and the result was 13
years of war between the United States and its former secret ally. Likewise,
during that same decade, the Carter and Reagan administrations, to oppose
their Soviet Cold War rival, funded and trained radical Islamic rebels in
remote, non-strategic Afghanistan. After the rebels won that war, some of
them turned on the United States and became al Qaeda-one of the most dire
threats to the U.S. homeland in the history of the republic.
And similarly, if we dig below the latest happenings in Haiti, we find much
more than first meets the eye. Much of Haiti's current problem lies in weak
civil institutions and no rule of law. Unfortunately, U.S. government policy
toward Haiti has contributed heavily to that state of affairs. Throughout
the 20th century, the U.S. military intervened repeatedly in Haiti. From
1915 to 1934, the U.S. Marines even occupied the country. During that time,
they dissolved Haiti's parliament, instituted martial law and created the
thuggish Haitian army. That army-containing senior officers on the CIA's
payroll- overthrew a democratically-elected Jean-Bertrand Aristide in 1991.
The remnants of it, with U.S. help, have just done it again.
In 1994, Bill Clinton, a Democrat, threatened to invade Haiti if the Haitian
military did not restore Aristide to power. But George W. Bush, a
Republican, having less use for the left-leaning leader, has now forced him
out. But there is more to schizophrenic U.S. policy than simply left-right
politics. In 1994, Haiti's internal strife was causing boatloads of refugees
to make a mad dash for Florida, a key electoral state. Although Haitians
then were fleeing mayhem, torture and other gross human rights violations,
the U.S. Coast Guard forced them back to Haiti. Similarly, the final straw
for George W. Bush during the current crisis was an attack on a Haitian
Coast Guard installation by pro-Aristide supporters-an attempt to shut down
the return of refugees. The number of boat people now fleeing the Caribbean
nation is less than in 1994, but the chaos and potential all-out civil war
there threatened to dramatically increase the flow. Keeping Haitian refugees
out of the United States is the primary driver of policy for both Democratic
and Republican administrations.
Of course, both the Clinton and Bush administrations must bear the moral
responsibility for directing a rich nation to turn away poor refugees, many
of whose lives have been endangered. But the Bush administration is also put
in the embarrassing position of ousting a democratically-elected leader
after its high-flying rhetoric about invading Iraq to spread democracy.
Granted, there were irregularities in Aristide's election win in 2000 and
plenty of corruption (there always is in Haiti), but Aristide was elected
twice and even peacefully turned power over to a successor in 1996.
Furthermore, the opposition fighters-many formerly in the army, police and
paramilitary-have thuggish pasts as bad or worse than Aristide's.
No workable solution can be imposed from the outside on Haitians, least of
all by a superpower that helped destroy Haitian civil society in the first
place. Haitians have to learn to solve their own problems, instead of always
looking to the United States to send troops to bring temporary peace. Racing
in with military forces to quell disorder merely rewards those local forces
perennially initiating violence to draw in the United States. Paradoxically,
if the United States declared that it would not interfere in Haitian society
in any way under any circumstances, more Haitian lives would probably be
saved in the long-term and the country would likely be better off. That is,
removing the reward for violence would likely lessen its occurrence.
But instead, the United States has again sent the Marines to Haiti. Don't
expect it to be the last time.
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DrSebby
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RE: virus: Re: virus: Déja vu All Over Again in Haiti
« Reply #1 on: 2004-03-06 09:35:32 » |
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...Jei, while your principle of one power or the other forcing their values
upon others, currently cannot be denied. from a mathematical standpoint,
Islam is the least applealing of all available large scale options. it
curtails options, progress, and expansiveness.
...so as you enjoy yourself on the champs elysees on halloween night amidst
your algerian friends, keep in mind that as the current power core of the
usa is filled with shit and evil, it will pass...and although the
replacement wont be THAT much better, it will be a little better...and it
will buy us little people time to figure out how to stand up for
ourselves...even though our numbers are increasingly idiotic.
DrSebby.
"Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows----
From: Jei <jei@cc.hut.fi>
Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: Re: virus: Déja vu All Over Again in Haiti
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:06:16 +0200 (EET)
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Jonathan Davis wrote:
> Evidence? Where are thou evidence?
>
> "Standard US imperialist pattern: use the CIA to prop up a dictator, wait
> until he ruins country, then “rescue” the country with an invasion."
Well, I have to admit that you can hardly see the light
if you choose to close your windows and pull on the drapes.
Please excuse my attempt to e-mail a few news articles to
enlighten you and "prove the point". - I can see this is
a waste of time as it is no use to force-feed the horse.
It will not eat unless it is hungry. - Be content in your
own set of beliefs, if you so choose.
I myself read around 300 news articles from around the world,
every single day, from as many sources as possible.
> So the CIA was propping up Saddam these last 10 years? What dictator were
> the US propping up in Kosovo and Bosnia? Who was the CIA propped dictator
in
> Afghanistan? Remind me of the name of the CIA puppet in Somalia back in
> '93....
The fact that US is going around the planet bombing people
should be proof enough that something is motivating someone,
and when it comes to war, the motivation is and has always
been ultimately about money to those who make the decisions
and take no personal risk, throughout the human history.
Draw your own conclusions as to who makes the profits and
gains the benefits in whatever conflicts you choose to observe.
> Standard paranoid hysterical propaganda bunk.
There really doesn't neet to be any kind of "conspiracy" in
the world, other than some powerful business people who share
a common attribute of greed. Cooperation and emotionless
exploitation of the ignorant inevitably follows. And seriously,
that is about as much a conspiracy as there needs to be, for
wars to take place.
There is no paranoia, there is no hysteria. There is just
simple logic that explains more than the feeble excuses of
"liberating iraqi people" or "finding WMD" or "bringing
democracy" or "liberating them from dictator". It is the
very nature of smart people to seek the explanation that
gives the most logical picture of the whole. I think a shared
greed for money is a powerful motivator of people and it
ultimately explains how and why wars happen.
It is often the nature of people to attack anything that
opposes their vision of the world, that does not coincide
with their limited beliefs. This pattern has also been repeated
many times throughout history, in many religious circles.
Fear of the different, fear of the unknown, fear of being
something that they do not want to be. Americans do not
want to be seen as nazis. - Who would want to be seen as
a nazi?
Resistance to new ideas and views is also logical. However,
I myself have found it to be most beneficial when you refuse
to abandon any new ideas outright and always keep a "what if"
view of the world. Always keep the windows open so to speak.
It helps in adopting better ideas and improving oneself.
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Casey
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RE: virus: Re: virus: Déja vu All Over Again in Haiti
« Reply #2 on: 2004-03-06 09:51:13 » |
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I have to say that I don't see the connection between the US, the CIA, and Haiti's current dilemna. Haiti is an independent nation, a former French colony, and not much else. It's history is plagued by dictatorships, corruption, and the like. In the past, the US
may have supported the Duvalier administrations. But, Aristide was elected by popular choice. And, the people of that country should decide, for themselves, whether or not they want to have Aristide in power. Aristide may have been overthrown by the rebels, but to pin blame on the US is ridiculous. It's my opinion that the US doesn't want to have to deal with a small country's social and political problems if it has any other choice. Haiti is not Iraq. Haiti is not Afghanistan. Haiti is not Burma. Haiti just doesn't have that level of importance in the eyes of the United States. What purpose would it serve to have the US 'overthrow' a country in the Caribbean? Is the US going out and attempting to forge some alliance with Haiti? I think not. Is Haiti going to be the launching pad for the democratization of all of the Caribbean and ultimately Cuba? I think not. You're playing into the hands of Aristide and his followers. You're playing into the hands of those who harbor ill will towards the United States. If any other country's government were to fall to a rebelious faction would you pin the blame on the United States? I would hope not. Because, that is taking the easy route out and not examining the complexities of a country, it's people, it's geographic region, let alone it's place in the world politic.
Regards,
Casey
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simul
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Re: virus: Re: virus: D?ja vu All Over Again in Haiti
« Reply #3 on: 2004-03-06 10:24:24 » |
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The US abrubptly pulled all support for Haiti, and shifted trade policy, just as Aristide came into power.
Why did we do this?
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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Re: virus: Re: virus: D?ja vu All Over Again in Haiti
« Reply #4 on: 2004-03-06 10:35:36 » |
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Compared to the French, does the U.S. have a better chance of electing a true populist President, financed by small, individual contributions rather than by entrenched corporate money and influence?
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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RE: virus: Re: virus: Déja vu All Over Again in Haiti
« Reply #5 on: 2004-03-06 11:36:00 » |
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It would now seem that, both, the US and France were a part of Aristide's ousting considering that Aristide made this claim yesterday. Aside from this assertion you've failed to note that in Aristide was returned to power in 1994 by US intervention and a negotiating team led by former Pres. Jimmy Carter after he was ousted by a military coup when he won the Presidential election in 1990. I think the US has offered him more than enough assistance in the past. Aristide has been in hot water over his election in 2000 because of voter fraud charges. During the period just prior to his second election in 2000, opposition groups protested and boycotted the elections, altogether. While he did garner 90% of the vote, the voter turn out was a measly 5%. He is not the savior of Haiti. In fact, he has supported the Chimeres - a political group that he armed that was formed by Aristide, himself. He's also been known to say some not so nice things, for example "The burning tyre, what a beautiful tool ... it smells good. And wherever you go, you want to smell it". This refers to an execution practice that gained popularity in South Africa, called "necklacing" - where a petrol-soaked tire is placed over a person's neck and set a flame. Aristide, a former priest, has used violent rhetoric in the past to subjugate the people of Haiti. The aforementioned quote is clear evidence of his lacking human decency. Why should the US support such a man? Why should the US support a man who according to Gerard Pierre Charles, an opposition leader, has said "He succeeded in cloaking the country in terror". Charles, if you are unaware, had his home attacked by the Chimeres - the group that Aristide has armed. In fact, Charles has said, "He became worse than Duvalier". Tell me what is worse, having a leader like Aristide in power, or not? Regardless of the accusations that Aristide has made regarding the so-called intervention by the US and France, I say Haiti is better off without him. In fact, so do the Haitian immigrants to the United States with whom I've had the privilege of having discussed this topic - all of whom left the country after his initial election.
Kind regards,
Casey
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rhinoceros
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RE: virus: Re: virus: Déja vu All Over Again in Haiti
« Reply #7 on: 2004-03-06 21:37:01 » |
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[Casey]
Aristide has been in hot water over his election in 2000 because of voter fraud charges. During the period just prior to his second election in 2000, opposition groups protested and boycotted the elections, altogether. While he did garner 90% of the vote, the voter turn out was a measly 5%.
[rhinoceros]
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/election.watch/americas/haiti1.html
<begin quote>
Presidential Candidate: Jean-Bertrand ARISTIDE
Party: Lavalas Family Party (FL)
Valid Votes Received: 2,632,534
Percent of Valid Votes Received: 91.81%
<snip>
Population and number of registered voters:
* Population: 6,867,995 (July 2000)
* Number of registered voters: 3,668,049 (1995)
<end quote>
[rhinoceros]
What was the source of the 5% participation claim? Those elections were heavily monitored, although not up to par with the "age of the computer".
[Casey]
He's also been known to say some not so nice things, for example "The burning tyre, what a beautiful tool ... it smells good. And wherever you go, you want to smell it". This refers to an execution practice that gained popularity in South Africa, called "necklacing" - where a petrol-soaked tire is placed over a person's neck and set a flame.
[rhinoceros]
This does not sound good at all! What is the source of this?
[Casey]
Aristide, a former priest, has used violent rhetoric in the past to subjugate the people of Haiti. The aforementioned quote is clear evidence of his lacking human decency.
[rhinoceros]
This may well be so. But you should realize what this is if there is not a credible source for the previous one.
[Casey]
Why should the US support such a man?
[rhinoceros]
Sure, they shouldn't support such a man. Although they often do.
[Casey]
Why should the US support a man who according to Gerard Pierre Charles, an opposition leader, has said "He succeeded in cloaking the country in terror". Charles, if you are unaware, had his home attacked by the Chimeres - the group that Aristide has armed. In fact, Charles has said, "He became worse than Duvalier". Tell me what is worse, having a leader like Aristide in power, or not?
[rhinoceros]
Wait a minute. Of course, no people should have a leader such as the one portrayed. But... "cloaking the country in terror". What was the country like without Aristide? A fairyland? It is understandable that Charles would be upset, having been targeted by paramilitaries, the ones siding with Aristide (I read Aristide disbanded the army after the 2000 elections) but sympathy does not make Charles' arguments any more valid.
Also, did you read Colin Powel's recent statements where he dismissed the rebel commanders who "triumphantly" entered Port-o-Prince? A good thing, since they have been reported as members of "death squads" in the past, but didn't Powel sound like an employer? I sincerely hope that the term "democratic opposition" in Haiti really amounts to something but, from what I have seen so far, I am not sure "democratic opposition" has anything to do with Bush's actions.
Moreover, I keep reading recent accounts of American M-16s finding their way through Dominican Republic to the hands of Haitian paramilitaries of the opposition who roam the countryside. Is Colin going to tell them to disband?
[Casey]
Regardless of the accusations that Aristide has made regarding the so-called intervention by the US and France, I say Haiti is better off without him. In fact, so do the few Haitian mmigrants to the United States, with whom I've had the privilege of having discussed this topic.
[rhinoceros]
What do they see for Haiti's future? Any specific thoughts that you care to pass along?
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Casey
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RE: virus: Re: virus: Déja vu All Over Again in Haiti
« Reply #8 on: 2004-03-08 20:24:01 » |
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[Casey]
Aristide has been in hot water over his election in 2000 because of voter fraud charges. During the period just prior to his second election in 2000, opposition groups protested and boycotted the elections, altogether. While he did garner 90% of the vote, the voter turn out was a measly 5%.
[rhinoceros]
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/election.watch/americas/haiti1.html
<begin quote>
Presidential Candidate: Jean-Bertrand ARISTIDE
Party: Lavalas Family Party (FL)
Valid Votes Received: 2,632,534
Percent of Valid Votes Received: 91.81%
<snip>
Population and number of registered voters:
* Population: 6,867,995 (July 2000)
* Number of registered voters: 3,668,049 (1995)
<end quote>
[rhinoceros]
What was the source of the 5% participation claim? Those elections were heavily monitored, although not up to par with the "age of the computer".
[Casey 2]
The following link offers the 5% claim. But, I cannot verify it's accuracy.
http://fpeng.peopledaily.com.cn/200011/29/eng20001129_56428.html
However, this link makes reference to a low voter turnout, according to opposition parties that were vying for power in Haiti.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1044341.stm
For what it's worth, I will retract my earlier statement of 5% voter turnout. However, there is evidence, as you've rightly stated, that the elections were not on "par with the 'age of the computer'" - which I might add is a major obstacle when determining the outcome and fairness of elections.
[Casey]
He's also been known to say some not so nice things, for example "The burning tyre, what a beautiful tool ... it smells good. And wherever you go, you want to smell it". This refers to an execution practice that gained popularity in South Africa, called "necklacing" - where a petrol-soaked tire is placed over a person's neck and set a flame.
[rhinoceros]
This does not sound good at all! What is the source of this?
[Casey 2]
Here's the link to the article where the quote originated:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/02/16/haiti.aristide.ap/
[Casey]
Aristide, a former priest, has used violent rhetoric in the past to subjugate the people of Haiti. The aforementioned quote is clear evidence of his lacking human decency.
[rhinoceros]
This may well be so. But you should realize what this is if there is not a credible source for the previous one.
[Casey 2]
The source is provided above.
[Casey]
Why should the US support such a man?
[rhinoceros]
Sure, they shouldn't support such a man. Although they often do.
[Casey 2]
Indeed, the US has done so. Now, I might add, it is time to desist from such practices.
[Casey]
Why should the US support a man who according to Gerard Pierre Charles, an opposition leader, has said "He succeeded in cloaking the country in terror". Charles, if you are unaware, had his home attacked by the Chimeres - the group that Aristide has armed. In fact, Charles has said, "He became worse than Duvalier". Tell me what is worse, having a leader like Aristide in power, or not?
[rhinoceros]
Wait a minute. Of course, no people should have a leader such as the one portrayed. But... "cloaking the country in terror". What was the country like without Aristide? A fairyland? It is understandable that Charles would be upset, having been targeted by paramilitaries, the ones siding with Aristide (I read Aristide disbanded the army after the 2000 elections) but sympathy does not make Charles' arguments any more valid.
[Casey 2]
According to recent news reports the Chimeres (armed supporters of Aristide) were the culprits in yesterday's violence that saw several people killed, including a Spanish journalist.
[rhinoceros]
Also, did you read Colin Powel's recent statements where he dismissed the rebel commanders who "triumphantly" entered Port-o-Prince? A good thing, since they have been reported as members of "death squads" in the past, but didn't Powel sound like an employer? I sincerely hope that the term "democratic opposition" in Haiti really amounts to something but, from what I have seen so far, I am not sure "democratic opposition" has anything to do with Bush's actions.
Moreover, I keep reading recent accounts of American M-16s finding their way through Dominican Republic to the hands of Haitian paramilitaries of the opposition who roam the countryside. Is Colin going to tell them to disband?
[Casey 2]
I think it's fair to assume that we both know weapons proliferation is nothing new. AK47's have become the weapon of choice for armies, terrorists, gun enthusiasts, et al. It very well may be true that M-16s were brought into Haiti via the Dominican Republic. But, they may have been purchased from weapons dealers, for all we know; and not supplied to them by agencies of the US government. Would you have a link detailing your assertion that M-16s are finding their way through the Dominican Republican and into Haitain paramilitay opposition groups?
[Casey]
Regardless of the accusations that Aristide has made regarding the so-called intervention by the US and France, I say Haiti is better off without him. In fact, so do the few Haitian mmigrants to the United States, with whom I've had the privilege of having discussed this topic.
[rhinoceros]
What do they see for Haiti's future? Any specific thoughts that you care to pass along?
[Casey 2]
Granted these discussions are not a broad collection of views of Haitians; the vast majority had hoped that violence could have been avoided. And, that Aristide were allowed to remain in power until the next set of elections.
One interesting point made was that after the 2000 elections here in the US, there was no armed revolt that toppled the government. A fellow I know from Haiti was saddened by the fact that people from his homeland could not, or would not, allow for the fufillment of Aristide's term. I should add that I support the notion that Haiti continue down the path of a progressive nation with democratic institutions in place, as opposed to armed confrontation that sees the ousting of it's leadership because continuous political upheaval will never, in my opinion, bring about democratic reforms or financial aid packages from the US, the UN, and others.
However, given what I've read and heard in recent conversations it would seem that this is just another incident in a long history of violence and political upheaval. I firmly believe that Aristide was a wedge in the democratic machine of Haiti. Violence, armed paramilitary groups, and civil unrest seem to be the choice de riguer for many of those who hold powerful positions in Haiti, including everyone from Aristide and his Chimere group to the wealthy business elites. If it discovered that the US has had any hand in these recent turn of events, then it will appear to be another poor foreign policy decision. In the meanwhile, it is in Haiti's best interest to begin searching for a leader who has the wide support of the people. Else we will see a repeating of these events over and over again.
Kind regards,
Casey
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DrSebby
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RE: virus: Re: virus: Déja vu All Over Again in Haiti
« Reply #9 on: 2004-03-08 23:05:19 » |
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...without looking for facts and supporting evidence of wrongdoing, i would
say it is usually enough when the peasants rise up against you, and largely
support the insurgent guerilla force. people generally don't react with
such brave rebellion unless something really really shitty is going on...and
for a long time.
...i think i could run Haiti. i could turn that country around completely.
DrSebby.
"Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Casey" <cmanisca@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: Re: virus: Déja vu All Over Again in Haiti
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 18:24:02 -0700
[Casey]
Aristide has been in hot water over his election in 2000 because of voter
fraud charges. During the period just prior to his second election in
2000, opposition groups protested and boycotted the elections, altogether.
While he did garner 90% of the vote, the voter turn out was a measly 5%.
[rhinoceros]
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/election.watch/americas/haiti1.html
<begin quote>
Presidential Candidate: Jean-Bertrand ARISTIDE
Party: Lavalas Family Party (FL)
Valid Votes Received: 2,632,534
Percent of Valid Votes Received: 91.81%
<snip>
Population and number of registered voters:
* Population: 6,867,995 (July 2000)
* Number of registered voters: 3,668,049 (1995)
<end quote>
[rhinoceros]
What was the source of the 5% participation claim? Those elections were
heavily monitored, although not up to par with the "age of the computer".
[Casey 2]
The following link offers the 5% claim. But, I cannot verify it's
accuracy.
http://fpeng.peopledaily.com.cn/200011/29/eng20001129_56428.html
However, this link makes reference to a low voter turnout, according to
opposition parties that were vying for power in Haiti.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1044341.stm
For what it's worth, I will retract my earlier statement of 5% voter
turnout. However, there is evidence, as you've rightly stated, that the
elections were not on "par with the 'age of the computer'" - which I might
add is a major obstacle when determining the outcome and fairness of
elections.
[Casey]
He's also been known to say some not so nice things, for example "The
burning tyre, what a beautiful tool ... it smells good. And wherever you go,
you want to smell it". This refers to an execution practice that gained
popularity in South Africa, called "necklacing" - where a petrol-soaked tire
is placed over a person's neck and set a flame.
[rhinoceros]
This does not sound good at all! What is the source of this?
[Casey 2]
Here's the link to the article where the quote originated:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/02/16/haiti.aristide.ap/
[Casey]
Aristide, a former priest, has used violent rhetoric in the past to
subjugate the people of Haiti. The aforementioned quote is clear evidence
of his lacking human decency.
[rhinoceros]
This may well be so. But you should realize what this is if there is not a
credible source for the previous one.
[Casey 2]
The source is provided above.
[Casey]
Why should the US support such a man?
[rhinoceros]
Sure, they shouldn't support such a man. Although they often do.
[Casey 2]
Indeed, the US has done so. Now, I might add, it is time to desist from
such practices.
[Casey]
Why should the US support a man who according to Gerard Pierre Charles, an
opposition leader, has said "He succeeded in cloaking the country in
terror". Charles, if you are unaware, had his home attacked by the Chimeres
- the group that Aristide has armed. In fact, Charles has said, "He became
worse than Duvalier". Tell me what is worse, having a leader like Aristide
in power, or not?
[rhinoceros]
Wait a minute. Of course, no people should have a leader such as the one
portrayed. But... "cloaking the country in terror". What was the country
like without Aristide? A fairyland? It is understandable that Charles would
be upset, having been targeted by paramilitaries, the ones siding with
Aristide (I read Aristide disbanded the army after the 2000 elections) but
sympathy does not make Charles' arguments any more valid.
[Casey 2]
According to recent news reports the Chimeres (armed supporters of Aristide)
were the culprits in yesterday's violence that saw several people killed,
including a Spanish journalist.
[rhinoceros]
Also, did you read Colin Powel's recent statements where he dismissed the
rebel commanders who "triumphantly" entered Port-o-Prince? A good thing,
since they have been reported as members of "death squads" in the past, but
didn't Powel sound like an employer? I sincerely hope that the term
"democratic opposition" in Haiti really amounts to something but, from what
I have seen so far, I am not sure "democratic opposition" has anything to do
with Bush's actions.
Moreover, I keep reading recent accounts of American M-16s finding their way
through Dominican Republic to the hands of Haitian paramilitaries of the
opposition who roam the countryside. Is Colin going to tell them to disband?
[Casey 2]
I think it's fair to assume that we both know weapons proliferation is
nothing new. AK47's have become the weapon of choice for armies,
terrorists, gun enthusiasts, et al. It very well may be true that M-16s
were brought into Haiti via the Dominican Republic. But, they may have been
purchased from weapons dealers, for all we know; and not supplied to them by
agencies of the US government. Would you have a link detailing your
assertion that M-16s are finding their way through the Dominican Republican
and into Haitain paramilitay opposition groups?
[Casey]
Regardless of the accusations that Aristide has made regarding the so-called
intervention by the US and France, I say Haiti is better off without him.
In fact, so do the few Haitian mmigrants to the United States, with whom
I've had the privilege of having discussed this topic.
[rhinoceros]
What do they see for Haiti's future? Any specific thoughts that you care to
pass along?
[Casey 2]
Granted these discussions are not a broad collection of views of Haitians;
the vast majority had hoped that violence could have been avoided. And,
that Aristide were allowed to remain in power until the next set of
elections.
One interesting point made was that after the 2000 elections here in the US,
there was no armed revolt that toppled the government. A fellow I know from
Haiti was saddened by the fact that people from his homeland could not, or
would not, allow for the fufillment of Aristide's term. I should add that I
support the notion that Haiti continue down the path of a progressive nation
with democratic institutions in place, as opposed to armed confrontation
that sees the ousting of it's leadership because continuous political
upheaval will never, in my opinion, bring about democratic reforms or
financial aid packages from the US, the UN, and others.
However, given what I've read and heard in recent conversations it would
seem that this is just another incident in a long history of violence and
political upheaval. I firmly believe that Aristide was a wedge in the
democratic machine of Haiti. Violence, armed paramilitary groups, and
civil unrest seem to be the choice de riguer for many of those who hold
powerful positions in Haiti, including everyone from Aristide and his
Chimere group to the wealthy business elites. If it discovered that the US
has had any hand in these recent turn of events, then it will appear to be
another poor foreign policy decision. In the meanwhile, it is in Haiti's
best interest to begin searching for a leader who has the wide support of
the people. Else we will see a repeating of these events over and over
again.
Kind regards,
Casey
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"courage and shuffle the cards..."
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rhinoceros
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My point is ...
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RE: virus: Re: virus: Déja vu All Over Again in Haiti
« Reply #10 on: 2004-03-09 22:03:21 » |
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[Sebby]
...without looking for facts and supporting evidence of wrongdoing, i would say it is usually enough when the peasants rise up against you, and largely support the insurgent guerilla force. people generally don't react with such brave rebellion unless something really really shitty is going on...and for a long time.
...i think i could run Haiti. i could turn that country around completely.
[rhinoceros]
Heh... the peasants revolting and going out with those big forks... how do they call them. It shows that I am a city boy.
That would be something... We had those in the battle of Crete against the Nazis. We heard at school how the Cretan peasants managed to fend off the Nazi parachute troopers for 40 days by running around in the fields and nailing them.
But the picture of Haiti that I obtained after some reading is very different. It involves organized paramilitary gangs, properly armed and funded. With 70 percent unemployment and $1 a day to live on (US sanctions are not unrelated to this), a paramilitary career should be a dreem career for the youth. Besides, Aristide disbanded the Haitian army in 2000, just after he returned to office after a coup, admitting his inability to keep the army under the control of the state against more substantial centrifugal forces. Of course, that meant that he would have to rely on his armed supporters...
Some facts or alleged facts which never made it to the mainstream media can be found in links already posted in our BBS lately, but were largely ignored because of their "noname" or "fruitcake" branding. A pity. I'll expand on some of them while addressing some points made by Casey.
[Casey]
Here's the link to the article where the quote originated:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/02/16/haiti.aristide.ap/
[rhinoceros]
Before going into the "necklacing" issue, I'll stop at a couple of points of this CNN article (an AP report actually).
<begin quote>
until he won a second term in 2000, at presidential elections marred by a low turnout and an opposition boycott.
<end quote>
[rhinoceros]
In spite of the fact that CNN reports these elections results...
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/election.watch/americas/haiti1.html
<begin quote>
Presidential Candidate: Jean-Bertrand ARISTIDE
Party: Lavalas Family Party (FL)
Valid Votes Received: 2,632,534
Percent of Valid Votes Received: 91.81%
Population: 6,867,995 (July 2000)
Number of registered voters: 3,668,049 (1995)
<end quote>
...which show that the abstention of the opposition, which actually happened, did not amount to much, it passes on any claims as if they were common knowledge.
Well, you might say, this is no big deal because, first, maybe these results are not so clear... who knows what happened there... and, second, Aristide has a lot going against him anyway... no need to be pedantic and stick to one single point.
Hmm... what else does the CNN article say? There is this paragraph:
<begin quote>
International donors suspended hundreds of millions of dollars in aid after his Lavalas Family party -- whose emblem is a fighting cock -- swept flawed legislative elections.
<end quote>
[rhinoceros]
Googling around I found that the issue of the flawed elections was about 7 senate positions which the opposition claimed that they had won. Aristide balked, but after some pressure and threats he complied -- these senate positions wouldn't change much anyway. That did not apeace the Republican majority in the US senate which went on to block international programs for economic aid to Haiti. They wanted nothing less than Aristide's ousting, and the way they chose for doing that was bringing Hell to Haiti and Haitians, peasants and city-boys alike.
About the necklacing thing, it seems that the Haitian boys have really picked some bad habits. Here is, for example, something that appeared in the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3740183,00.html
<begin quote>
Rebels perpetrated similar reprisals Wednesday in Gonaives, burning to death a man accused of being an Aristide hitman in the "necklacing" style: putting a tire over his head, dousing him with gasoline and setting him aflame.
<end quote>
[rhinoceros]
Is Aristide also one of them psycho-killers, endorsing necklacing his opponents with burning tyres? The report of Aristede saying so openly on TV appeared in Newsweek in 1994 and is now all over the net. As CNN reports it:
<begin quote>
The burning tire, what a beautiful tool! ... It smells good. And wherever you go, you want to smell it," Aristide said September 27, 1991.
<end quote>
[rhinoceros]
Whatever some Haitians do, this behavior should not be acceptable from a leader who was supposed to get Haiti out of this mess. I googled for antilogue and found this:
http://www.fair.org/extra/9411/aristide-demonization.html
Enemy Ally: The Demonization of Jean-Bertrand Aristide
<begin snip>
John McLaughlin provided one of the shriller summaries of the claims on the McLaughlin Group (9/20/94): "Aristide has been charged by eye-witnesses with criminal horrors, including assassination; complicity in the humiliation of the Papal Nuncio...and, most horribly, Aristide's exhorting of mobs to use necklacing, Haitian slang for gang execution with a gasoline-soaked tire put around the neck and set aflame, also called Pere Lebrun." McLaughlin then showed a video clip that he said showed "Aristide inciting a mob to Pere Lebrun with his lunatic sing-song chant."
The assault against the Papal Nuncio, who was suspected of supporting an attempted coup, occurred before Aristide came to power, and Aristide was not involved. As for the alleged "Pere Lebrun" speech, it nowhere mentions necklacing, and seems in context to be referring to the Haitian constitution as a "beautiful tool." Despite the constant repetition of the claim that the spell-binding Aristide "exhorted mobs to use necklacing," there were no documented cases of necklacing from the day of Aristide's inauguration until the day of the coup.
While the old charges linger on (Newsweek, 9/19/94, merged quotes from two different statements into "one angry speech" to make it seem like Aristide had called for necklacing), new disinformation is surfacing -- often based on the flimsiest of reporting.
<end snip>
[rhinoceros]
Read the rest of the aticle if you care enough. The reason I posted this is to point out that we tend to accept things that appear casually in the mainstream media as "common knowledge". More than that, I was not there, I don't know.
[Casey]
Would you have a link detailing your assertion that M-16s are finding their way through the Dominican Republican and into Haitain paramilitay opposition groups?
[rhinoceros]
Oh, I still owe a source for the claim about American guns finding their way to the opposition gangs (suporting the claims that a US sponsored regime change happened in Haiti). Googling for <Haiti M16 Dominican> I got many hits, so I chose the one with the most relevant title.
http://houston.indymedia.org/news/2004/02/26961_comment.php
One M16 every 20 yards? Overthrowing Haiti
<begin snip>
Fifteen months ago, the Bush Administration supplied twenty-thousand M16sto the Dominican Republic, ostensibly to "defend the border" with Haiti. At least eight thousand US soldiers were also sent, to train and assist.
For the 220 mile border between Haiti and the Dominican Republic, 20,000 M16s = 1 M16 every 20 yards!!..a VERY dense border patrol? More likely, it paved the way for an armed coup of a democratically elected government.
Haiti doesn't even have an army.
Differing opinions about Aristide may exist among the Haitians, but the Bush Administration is clearly encouraging the opposition -- led by a wealthy US-born sweatshop owner -- towards a violent overthrow of the government, and has very likely supplied the arms as well.
<end snip>
[rhinoceros]
The article is followed by a barage of reader comments, for and against, lively if not cool-headed.
I have no illusions that we can arrive at an agreement on the issue of the USA feeling free to "set things right" all around the place, even at the expense of the people. I do believe, however that we should always take a look for "the other side", facts or claims which never make it to the mainstream media.
And of course there still remains the issue of the future of Haiti. If the death-squad type warlords are excluded, as they should, nobody seems to have a viable solution.
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