RE virus: More bush democracy
« on: 2004-03-03 06:27:32 »
[Blunderov]<sighs> By their fruits ye shall know them. Best Regards
<q> Haiti once again, is ablaze. Almost nobody, however, understands that today's chaos was made In Washington - deliberately, cynically and steadfastly. History will bear this out. In the meantime, political, social and economic chaos will deepen and Haiti's impoverished people will suffer.
The Bush administration has been pursuing policies likely to topple Jean-Bertrand, Aristide since 2001. The hatred began when Aristide, then a parish priest and democracy campaigner against Haiti's ruthless Duvalier dictatorship, preached liberation theology in the 1980s. US conservatives branded him the next Fidel Castro.
Conservative disdain multiplied several-fold when former president Bill Clinton put Aristide in power after a coup blocked him from electoral victory in 1994. Conservatives mocked Clinton for wasting US efforts on "nation building" in Haiti. This is the same right wing that has squandered $160 billion on a far more violent and dubious effort at "nation building" in Iraq.
Attacks on Aristide began as soon as the Bush administration assumed office. I visited him in Port-au-Prince in 2001. He was intent on good relations with Haiti's private sector and the US. He sought advice on how to reform his economy and explained his concerns that the US right would try to wreck his presidency.
Haiti was in a desperate state: the most impoverished country in the western hemisphere, with a standard of living comparable to sub-Saharan Africa, despite being only a few hours by air from Miami. Life expectancy was 52 years. Of every 1000 children born, more than 100 died before their fifth birthday. An HIV-Aids epidemic, the worst in the Caribbean, was running unchecked. Tourists and investors were staying away, so there were no jobs to be had.
But Aristide was enormously popular. Together with Pail Farmer, the legendary Haitian HIV-Aids doctor, I visited villages in the Central Plateau. Everybody referred to Aristide affectionately as "Titid" Here was an elected leader with the backing of Haiti's poor, the bulk of the population. When 1 returned to Washington, I spoke to senior officials in the International Monetary Fund, World Bank, Inter-American Development Bank, and Organisation of American States, expecting to hear that they would be rushing to help Haiti.
Instead, they were all suspending aid under vague Instructions from the US. The US, It seemed, was unwilling to release aid to Haiti because of irregularities in the 2000 legislative elections, and was insisting that Aristide make peace with the opposition. The US position was a travesty. Aristide had been elected president in an Indisputable landslide. He was the popularly elected leader of the country - a claim George Bush cannot make about himself.
Nor were the results of the legislative elections in 2000 in doubt: Aristide's party had also won in a landslide. It was claimed that Aristide's party had stolen a few seats. If true - and the allegation remains unproved - it would be nothing different from what has occurred in dozens of countries around the world receiving support from the IMP, World Bank and the US itself. By any standard, Haiti's elections had marked a step forward in democracy, compared to the decades of military dictatorships backed by the US, not to mention long periods of direct US military occupation.
The more one sniffed around Washington the less the US position made sense. By saying that aid would be frozen until Aristide and the political opposition reached an agreement, the Bush administration provided Haiti's un-elected opposition with an open-ended veto. Aristide's foes merely had to refuse to bargain in order to plunge Haiti into chaos.
That chaos has come. It is sad to hear rampaging students on BBC and CNN saying that Aristide "lied" because he didn't improve the country's social conditions. Yes, Haiti's economic collapse is fuelling rioting and deaths, but the lies were not Aristide's. The lies came from Washington. Aristide's opponents know that US right-wingers will stand with them. </q>
(c)Project Syndicate
Jeffrey D Sachs is Professor of economics and Director of the Earth Institute at Columbia University
One can only explain it with that American's just hate the freedoms that Iraqi's, Afghanis, Venezuelans and Haiti's used to have.
Why do they hate them so? - Simply because they don't have them. Their government looks after the pockets of their corporate elites. Not the little people. This is what incites hatred in americans to such an extent that they make war upon the free countries of the world.
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Jonathan Davis wrote:
> "Real democracies" like pre-War Iraq or Afghanistan, contemporary Iran, > North Korea and Libya? > > I prefer these false democracy police states like the UK and the USA. > > Regards > > Limbic > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of > Erik Aronesty > > It sounds very consistent with our foreign policy of "zero tolerance for > real democracy" > > Then again, that's our new domestic policy as well. --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
Re: RE virus: More bush democracy
« Reply #5 on: 2004-03-03 14:50:49 »
Exactly, we have a habit of propping up dictators - like Saddam or Khomeini. Our foreign policy reflects our wallets, not our ideals.We sanction and economicly ruin countries that elect leaders that disagree with us economically - regardless of how they came into power.
Sweden, Switzerland and Costa Rica seem to be strong on democracy and press freedom.
Our “quasi democratic republic” ranks poorly when it comes to censorship and civil rights.
-----Original Message----- From: "Jonathan Davis" <jonathan.davis@lineone.net> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:17:38 To:<virus@lucifer.com> Subject: RE: RE virus: More bush democracy
"Real democracies" like pre-War Iraq or Afghanistan, contemporary Iran, North Korea and Libya?
I prefer these false democracy police states like the UK and the USA.
RE: RE virus: More bush democracy
« Reply #6 on: 2004-03-03 14:57:03 »
Sent: 03 March 2004 08:16 PM
Thanks B. Interesting, but a bit short on evidence.
Bye the way, US/French intervention - good or bad?
Regards
Limbic
[Blunderov] A fair point Limbic. Most of what I 'know' comes from a Graham Green novel which was set in the time of the infamous Papa Doc and the Ton Ton Lacoute. Plainly I will have to fire up the Google engine to remedy this sad ignorance. Any pointers happily received. Best Regards
> On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Blunderov wrote: > > > Sent: 03 March 2004 08:16 PM > > > > Thanks B. Interesting, but a bit short on evidence. > > > > Bye the way, US/French intervention - good or bad?
By the way, this is now the third country to fall under Bush's American neo-nazis.
The fourth may be Venezuela, and the rest on the list that I know of are Iran, Syria, North Korea and Saudi-Arabia.
Americans' actions are really looking more and more like Nazi imperialism every day.
[Blunderov] Thanks for the link. A riveting quote; "At Harvard Business School, thirty years ago, George Bush was a student of mine. I still vividly remember him. In my class, he declared that "people are poor because they are lazy."
One can only suppose that Bush and his cronies must have been working non-stop since birth, without breaks for meals or sleep, in order to get a rich as they are.
I'm surprised that they can find any time to play golf at all. Best Regards
RE: RE virus: More bush democracy
« Reply #12 on: 2004-03-04 06:40:03 »
I think foreign policy of virtually every state is rightly about self-interest (yes, even Sweden and Switzerland).
I was thinking today that it is slightly hypocritical of some people to have argued against the invasion of Iraq on pragmatic grounds (i.e. "It will stir up terrorists", "It is best to leave the Saddam there at least he hates and suppresses Al Qaeda" etc) often denounce former examples of pragmatic foreign policies as bad because they have created problems for us now (arming Saddam, arming Islamists in Afghanistan).
The United States has sanctions against Cuba (a communist dictatorship and long time enemy) and participated in UN sanctions against Saddam's Iraq. Occasionally it gets into tangles with other trade blocks like the protectionist EU, that is destroying Caribbean fruit farmers (amongst others) and the US is trying to help.
I am curious about which countries you assess as having been ruined by the United States? The US has single handily driven the world economy to greater strength than ever before (that is why economists are so worried about the slow down in "US led growth").
I also have to disagree with your assessment of the United States as a "quasi-democracy". Compared to comparatively tiny and strongly homogenous states like Switzerland, it appears to be wanting. But against a world benchmark, it is by far the most free, democratic and least corrupt of the super-250 million population states / political unions (Russia, India, Brazil, EU etc).
Here in the UK the only thing you really cannot say is anything bad about minority ethnic groups or other protected minorities (e.g. gays). There are laws against hate speech that proscribe this. Otherwise one is pretty much free to say whatever one likes.
In the USA you have even stronger protections for free speech written into the very constitution of the nation. The mass media may be controlled by business interests, but that is not the same as not having a free press. It is useful to ask people of the former Soviet Bloc what real censorship and suppression are. Or better still, ask some Miami Cubans about the paradise of free Cuba and its free press and free elections.
Exactly, we have a habit of propping up dictators - like Saddam or Khomeini. Our foreign policy reflects our wallets, not our ideals.We sanction and economicly ruin countries that elect leaders that disagree with us economically - regardless of how they came into power.
Sweden, Switzerland and Costa Rica seem to be strong on democracy and press freedom.
Our "quasi democratic republic" ranks poorly when it comes to censorship and civil rights.
-----Original Message----- From: "Jonathan Davis" <jonathan.davis@lineone.net> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:17:38 To:<virus@lucifer.com> Subject: RE: RE virus: More bush democracy
"Real democracies" like pre-War Iraq or Afghanistan, contemporary Iran, North Korea and Libya?
I prefer these false democracy police states like the UK and the USA.
RE: RE virus: More bush democracy
« Reply #13 on: 2004-03-04 08:52:27 »
It is a pity the Nazis and the American Eugenics movement have ruined what is basically a sound idea: the scientific study of ways in which we can improve humanity.
RE: RE virus: More bush democracy
« Reply #14 on: 2004-03-04 08:59:04 »
"American's just hate the freedoms that Iraqi's, Afghanis, Venezuelans and Haiti's used to have"
Can you support this statement? Whilst you are at it, can you confirm that you are stating, seriously, that:
1) Americans (all Americans or the majority) hate(d) the people of Taliban Afghanistan, Saddam's Iraq, Chavez's Venezuela and Aristede's Haiti. 2) That they did so because these citizens of those countries had civil rights whereas US citizens do not.
One can only explain it with that American's just hate the freedoms that Iraqi's, Afghanis, Venezuelans and Haiti's used to have.
Why do they hate them so? - Simply because they don't have them. Their government looks after the pockets of their corporate elites. Not the little people. This is what incites hatred in americans to such an extent that they make war upon the free countries of the world.
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Jonathan Davis wrote:
> "Real democracies" like pre-War Iraq or Afghanistan, contemporary > Iran, North Korea and Libya? > > I prefer these false democracy police states like the UK and the USA. > > Regards > > Limbic > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On > Behalf Of Erik Aronesty > > It sounds very consistent with our foreign policy of "zero tolerance > for real democracy" > > Then again, that's our new domestic policy as well. --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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