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Mermaid
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Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #30 on: 2003-10-26 20:10:05 » |
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btw..having said all that..i dont know how things will improve if the concept of minimum wage is abolished. I can make guesses, but they would be just that..guesses..
if we are talking about reforms..i'd start by eliminating high school kids from working in low paying, unskilled, minimum wage jobs...i dont see the point of it anyways..does anyone else?
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rhinoceros
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Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #31 on: 2003-10-26 20:37:17 » |
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[Ophis]
The same thing happens in the real economy. I can't just raise my prices because the breadmaker employee union has made me increase my employee's wages. The only way a producer can raise prices is if there is an increase in demand for the product. As a breadmaker, if I raise my prices without there being in increase in demand, I'll see a decline in sales.
[rhinoceros]
In fact, local breadmaker *employers* unions do increase their prices here from time to time, because "the cost of production" and because "the cost of life" has gone up. They would do it more often if they didn't need approval because government has classified the "plain" bread as regulated.
[Ophis]
Of course, we can suppose that all my competitors have to raise their prices too. So now ALL bread prices are higher and as a consumer, if you want to buy some bread you have no option but to pay a higher price. All bread makers will then see a decline in the demand for bread because people will start buying alternative products instead of bread (like pop-tarts or something).
[rhinoceros]
Since we buy our bread from one of the 3 bakers who are in a range of 500 meters, and we also have a preference for one of them even if he was a bit more expensive, and since we, like most people, prefer not to buy "prebaked" bread from the supermarket, and since will not buy any alternative product because we even eat bread with spaghetti, competition will not work here, except if something very extreme happens 
I would understand your argument better if it was about pop-tarts, although I would probably drop them altogether.
[Ophis]
The appropriate response of the breadmakers at that point would be to lower the price of bread to gain market share in the overall bigger "food" market place.
All this said, all producers of all things cannot all increase their prices at the same time (as we've seen over the course of history). There simply isn't enough money to go around for this to happen (unless the government prints funny-money).
[rhinoceros]
Heh, in fact it is as if they did. A problem is that almost all prices go up at once in the supermarket. It is more about switching supermarkets these days than about specific products.
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simul
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virus: Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #33 on: 2003-10-26 22:59:55 » |
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Some basic concepts:
The economy is not a zero-sum game. Technological innovation produces efficiencies that result in increased production without increased labor. The result should be that people work fewer hours, or have more spare income.
However, the real result is often increased profits for the ruling classes. They absorb all efficiency with insatiable greed.
When the masses realize that more than 50 pct of their GDP is going to make 1 pct of the population ludicrously wealthy, then they get angry and demand higher wages.
Mos of the time, however, they are socially conditioned to keep quiet.
I'm not saying what people should or shouldn't do.
However, it is true thatwe could give 99 pct of the people in the US a 10 pct raise and give the wealthiest 1 pct a 10 pct reduction... and maintain a balanced economy.
The real problem right now is that political power is favoring the extremely wealthy. They are getting richer as the poor are getting poorer.
It's all a question of keeping the poor content with their fate.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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simul
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virus: Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #34 on: 2003-10-26 23:30:59 » |
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"The burden of increased minimum wage is passed to the consumer"
This is an idiotic statement.
There are many places that increased payroll expenses can come from.
Increased minimum wages cause increased consumer spending. In the hands of low-end consumers, money most quickly returns to the system.
Not all businesses have the luxury of raising prices in response to minimum wage increases. Due to competition, many of them are forced to suffer profit losses.
When high-income monopolist profits are lost to consumer wages, it is generally good for the economy.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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Kharin
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Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #35 on: 2003-10-27 04:57:56 » |
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Quote:| "[Lucifer] That isn't surprising considering the minimum wage only removes employment opportunites from the non-skilled and the poorest of the poor." |
For the most part that doesn't seem to be the case. Certain industires like private security certainly seemed to face problems but these do not seem to be primarily related to the minimum wage. More to the point, many of the industries where one would expect to see the above scenario do not show any signs of it. The service sector is an obvious example and this has been the strongest area of the UK economy since the introduction of the minimum wage. Another example is residential care, where a study by the London School of Economics found that while there was some impact on the number of hours worked and some jobs were cut, employment in the sector increased from 220,000 in 1994 to 330,000 in 2001. As I recall, a study led by a Director of the Confederation of British Industry found no evidence of any direct impact on employment or business.
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rhinoceros
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Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #36 on: 2003-10-27 06:31:03 » |
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[simul]
"The burden of increased minimum wage is passed to the consumer"
This is an idiotic statement.
There are many places that increased payroll expenses can come from.
<snip>
[rhinoceros]
Heh, yes, I always thought it was a good practice to start a post with a summary to give the reader a quick picture of what's in the post.
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #37 on: 2003-10-27 07:58:01 » |
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[Blunderov]
This seems germane. In particular
<extract>
Over all, workers at the very bottom of the income distribution are
among the only ones whose hourly wages have trailed inflation recently.
Congress has not raised the minimum wage since 1997, and its buying
power has been slowly eroded by inflation.
</extract>
Best Regards
<q>
Gains in Wages Expected to Give Economy a Lift
By DAVID LEONHARDT and EDMUND L. ANDREWS
Wage increases for employees at almost all income levels
are giving important and unexpected support to the nation's economy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/business/27WAGE.html?th
Gains in Wages Expected to Give Economy a Lift
By DAVID LEONHARDT and EDMUND L. ANDREWS
Published: October 27, 2003
Wage increases for employees at almost all income levels are giving
important and unexpected support to the nation's economy. If the gains
continue, they offer hope that the rapid economic expansion of recent
months could prove more durable than other spurts of growth over the
last two years.
Forecasters expect the Commerce Department to say in its quarterly
report on Thursday that the economy grew about 6 percent in the
three-month period ending in September, which would be the fastest pace
since 1999. Most of that growth stemmed from a sharp rise in consumer
spending, driven largely by a continuing boom in mortgage refinancing
and checks that were mailed out as part of the recent tax cut.
With those forces receding and business spending still slack, the
economy will depend increasingly on regular paychecks, analysts say.
Hourly wages have already surprised most economists by growing more
quickly than inflation since 2001 in spite of the worst decline in
employment in 20 years.
The wage gains have not been enough to overcome the economy's problems,
however. Many families still have less income than they did a year ago
because companies have reduced their workers' hours, and health care
costs have risen rapidly. But economists say that the wage raises have
provided a buffer, allowing consumer spending to continue rising every
quarter for the last 12 years, according to the Commerce Department.
The contradictory mix of high unemployment with fast growth and
resilient wages is part of the conundrum that the Federal Reserve will
face tomorrow, when its monetary policy committee meets to set interest
rates.
Fed officials have signaled that they will keep short-term rates at just
1 percent and repeat their cautious economic outlook because they remain
worried about the slow pace of job growth and the risk of a deflationary
price spiral.
According to an analysis of Labor Department data by the Economic Policy
Institute, a Washington research group, hourly wages have increased more
sharply than at any time since early 2002 - more than 2 percent, after
being adjusted for inflation - for a median of about $14 an hour.
Another government survey suggests that wage growth is falling but
remains above the annual inflation rate, which is roughly 2 percent.
Wage increases trailed inflation for long periods during the 1980's and
early 90's.
"What seems to be happening is that companies that are staying in
business want to hold onto the people they have," Stephen R. Sleigh,
director of strategic resources at the International Association of
Machinists and Aerospace Workers, which has negotiated annual pay
increases of more than 3 percent on most recent contracts. "It's a very
unusual labor market right now."
As companies have reacted to the increasing competition of a global
economy and figured out how they can use technology smartly, they have
become more efficient in recent years, ending decades of slow
productivity growth. This productivity surge has contributed to the lack
of hiring since 2001, because companies can make more goods without
adding new workers, but it has also left a larger amount of revenue to
be split between hourly wages and corporate profits.
"We all talk about the dark side of productivity growth," Richard
Berner, the chief United States economist at Morgan Stanley, said. "This
is the positive side. Companies couldn't afford to pay more if they
weren't getting more out of their workers."
With the help of the money from refinancing and the tax cut, retail
sales surged last month; Gap, Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom and other chains
reported some of their best results since last year.
The increase in wages "has been a hallmark of the last several years and
a cushion for the consumer," Mr. Berner said. "It's an important and
often overlooked aspect of what's going on."
Thursday's report on economic growth will offer clear political
advantages for the White House, adding legitimacy to its argument that
the recent tax cut has turned around the economy. But many economists,
including some at the Fed, caution that major parts of the current
growth spurt are unsustainable.
Laurence H. Meyer, an economist and a former Fed governor, estimates
that the combination of tax cuts and bigger government spending, mostly
for the military, essentially doubled the pace of economic growth in the
third quarter, to 6 percent from 3 percent. But Mr. Meyer said that that
effect is already wearing off and that the fiscal policy will actually
become a drag on growth by the end of next year.
Interest rates are also likely to rise as the economy recovers, as John
W. Snow, the Treasury secretary, pointed out in closely followed remarks
last week. That could cause a big decline in mortgage refinancing.
The best hope for a run of solid economic growth that lasts more than a
few months, which has not happened since the late 90's, lies in
corporate America, where many executives remain too circumspect to
invest significantly in new buildings, equipment or technology. Should
that change, employment could begin growing at a healthy rate again and
income and consumer spending could rise with it, creating a virtuous
cycle, economists say.
The economy added jobs in September for the first time since January,
but the new hiring was not strong enough to cause a drop in the
unemployment rate.
The key is "the whole hand-off from consumers to business," said Robert
V. DiClemente, chief United States economist at Citigroup. "The business
sector has to promote growth by restocking, hiring, advertising,
contributing to income growth," he said.
Most forecasters predict that the current recovery will take hold, even
if the gaudy growth of the third quarter does not last.
But Wall Street and government economists have repeatedly been too
optimistic over the last two years, and a few analysts remain concerned
that companies are still working off the excess of the late-90's bubble
in stock prices and technology spending.
If employment does not begin growing at a healthy pace soon, the wage
increases will probably not last, many economists say. Changes in pay
often lag other parts of the economy.
The recent wage increases appear to grow out of both the sharp recent
increases in the nation's productivity and the relative strength of the
labor market, compared with its condition in the aftermath of other
recessions.
With the jobless rate at 6.1 percent last month, compared with a peak of
almost 11 percent during the 80's, companies also have less bargaining
power than they had during other periods of slow economic growth. A
survey of employers by Watson Wyatt, a consulting firm, found that they
plan to pay average salary increases of 3.4 percent next year, up from
3.2 percent this year.
SAS, a software maker based in Cary, N.C., has reduced the amount of
money it pays to employees from its profit-sharing plan as business has
weakened in the last two years. But SAS has increased salaries 4 to 5
percent a year on average, with most of the raises going to the
employees whom executives fear losing the most, said Jeff Chambers, vice
president of human resources at the company, which employs 5,000 people
in this country.
"We've made money available to people who have the magic - the critical
performers in the critical roles," Mr. Chambers said.
Other significant pay increases this year have included raises of almost
10 percent for public school teachers and administrators in Washington
and raises of almost 30 percent for nurses, who are still in high demand
nationwide, at Tenet Healthcare.
But the picture is hardly uniform. Airline and steel workers have agreed
to pay cuts as their companies struggle to avoid or emerge from
bankruptcy. In August, President Bush announced that he was cutting the
raises of more than one million federal workers, to 2 percent from 2.7
percent, to help pay for military actions and to avoid the need for
other spending cuts.
Over all, workers at the very bottom of the income distribution are
among the only ones whose hourly wages have trailed inflation recently.
Congress has not raised the minimum wage since 1997, and its buying
power has been slowly eroded by inflation.
Workers in the middle have received somewhat larger increases than those
at the top, according to Jared Bernstein, an economist at the Economic
Policy Institute. Men's wages grew in the third quarter of 2003 for the
first time in a year, Mr. Bernstein said, based on his analysis of a
survey of households conducted by the Census Bureau.
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rhinoceros
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Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #38 on: 2003-10-27 09:25:24 » |
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To Ophis:
I did a refresher googling about inflation and unemployment. The "Philips curve" was supposed to show a tradeoff between inflation and unemployment, but later it was found that this relationship depended on the particulars of an economy (there can be "stagflation", that is, rising inflation plus rising unemployment).
http://www.scottishlife.co.uk/scottishlifeold/invest/jargon5.htm
"Demand pull" inflation is also mentioned there.
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Mermaid
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RE: virus: Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #39 on: 2003-10-27 09:35:23 » |
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[Blunderov]
<q>
Gains in Wages Expected to Give Economy a Lift
By DAVID LEONHARDT and EDMUND L. ANDREWS
Wage increases for employees at almost all income levels
are giving important and unexpected support to the nation's economy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/business/27WAGE.html?th
Gains in Wages Expected to Give Economy a Lift
By DAVID LEONHARDT and EDMUND L. ANDREWS
Published: October 27, 2003
[Mermaid]I just finished reading your article and after I checked out of hotmail from where I get my early morning spam fix, I saw this on the msn page...
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P62365.asp
It is a very interesting article. I am going to paste just some bits and pieces of it. Its a good read, imo.
(begin snip)
Yes, jobs are finally being created, but U.S. workers will find their incomes increasingly pressured by lower wages, higher benefit fees and global competition. That’s good for your boss but could hurt the markets.
[...]
Initial claims for unemployment dropped another 4,000 to 386,000 in the latest report. That’s below the 400,000 level that many economists believe marks the difference between times of growing employment (such as now) and times of growing unemployment (as in much of 2003).
[Mermaid] I suspect that unemployment is higher.
In September, 138 million of us were employed, and 9 million -- or about 6.5% -- were officially unemployed. That unemployed number doesn’t include the 5 million people in the United States who work at part time jobs and say they’d like full time jobs if they could find them.
In September, 57,000 more people received paychecks than the month before. The biggest job loss that month came in manufacturing, where 29,000 people lost their spots on the payroll. Yep, the manufacturing sector continued to lose jobs even as the economy as a whole added jobs.
And the biggest gains in jobs came in business and professional services (66,000 workers added to payrolls in this kind of work), health care and social assistance (15,000), and retail (15,000).
Manufacturing jobs in the United States pay an average of $650 a week or about $34,000 a year, according to outplacement firm Challenger, Gray & Christmas. Retail jobs, in contrast, pay an average of $373 a week, or about $19,000 a year. Even as the recovery starts to pick up speed, the U.S. economy is shedding $34,000-a-year jobs and replacing them with $19,000-a-year jobs.
[Mermaid]This is a *huge* flashing red sign. Over the years, the manufacturing industry has eroded to nothing in the United States. Service sector jobs are cheaper to outsource and primary sector is essentially sufficient for feeding the millions of a very large America. The economy hums here not because of it is producing surplus, but because America is a *large* country. The country generates so many jobs just to feed, clothe and to get the food and goods from one end of the country to the other. This is quite impressive, but its not enough to be globally competitive. USA owes its economic success to its relative youth (and so hasnt experienced the inevitable cycles ..economic or otherwise) and because of the turmoil in the rest of the world(and so the global slump suppressed global economic recovery). But thats over now. Its now time to relook at our assets and liabilities. Manufacturing is out and service sector is limited. America's only hope is technology and research. It has to corner the technology and research market to supply and distribute it to the rest of the world who will work on it. Technology that improves the lot of the rest of the world. America has no choice but to raise the world's lot and help the rest of the world step out of their shitholes. As they become more equal, the competitive edge will disappear. Non zero game at work.
That’s not the only way in which the jobs being created by this recovery are worth less than the jobs being destroyed in the recovery, or less than those that existed before the downturn even started. Workers taking new jobs and workers hanging on to existing jobs are paying more out of their paychecks.
[...]
In the same way, many paychecks are now worth less because of fees that you have to pay that your employer used to cover.
For example, 56% of U.S. employers raised healthcare premiums, deductibles or co-pays in the last year, according to Watson Wyatt Worldwide. And 18% now charge an extra $100 a year for family coverage if the employee’s working spouse declines coverage from his or her own employer.
[Mermaid]note..this is how real wages sink. As money wages *and* real wages sink, the fall is harder.
Now, some of this is because employers themselves face rising costs for supplying these benefits and, with global competition being what it is, they have to pass those costs along to someone. And they certainly can’t pass them along to consumers at this time.
[Mermaid]Earlier someone mentioned that prices dont always rise for the consumer when the employers expereince increase in costs of production. That, it is passed on to the consumers is macro economic theory. What is illustrated above is reality. If there hasnt been an economic slump and less unemployment *and* especially if there was a wage rise, then the burden is passed onto the consumers. The economic logic here is that it doesnt pay to increase the price of products when the employees themselves are taking pay cuts and have reduced purchasing power. A wage increase would most definitely increase the cost of goods. however look what happens afterward...
But many companies are using the slow economy and the scarcity of good jobs to pass more than the increases in their costs along to employees. According to Hewitt Associates, the cost of health insurance climbed 15% nationally in 2003 and will jump another 13% in 2004. But employees are looking at a 23% increase in what they pay for health insurance in 2004. That will be the third straight year with an increase of 20% or more for employees.
[Mermaid]So even though there is no price increase for the consumer, when his purchasing power goes down, the burden of costs and low profits faced by the employer is still passed on to him. example: imagine you can buy 10 units of food for ten dollars. The effect of increasing the cost of a food block to 2 dollars per food block is the same as reducing the income to 5 dollars without price change for the food. This will lead to low demand for the goods affecting production which in turn affects jobs and then it gets ugly from that.
Workers in the job-is-worth-less recovery are going to feel so insecure in their jobs that it will be tough to recover the ground that they’ve lost so far.
First, the “recovered” economy isn’t going to look that different from the economy during the downturn. Thanks to unrelenting global competition in everything from chips to call centers, companies will be forced to follow the most recent rounds of cost-cutting, restructuring, and job reductions with other rounds of cost-cutting, restructuring and job reductions. That painful process looks like it will be a permanent part of life for employers and employees for the foreseeable future.
[Mermaid]So goods should become cheaper, right..in order to maintain some sort of an equilibrium. But are the employers reducing the price as much as they are reducing the wages/jobs. Do not forget that the reason they are oursourcing and cost cutting is to increase their own profit margins. It is also true that their profit margins are taking a hit from lesser consumer power because of unemployment and wage cuts. So, they are cutting costs by employing someone else and the money is transferred to some other economy. Is it the fault of the working class in this country or is it he fault of the booming global economy? Neither. The fault lies with the profit making businessmen who are not ploughing back the money into the domestic economy to stimulate it further. I strongly recommend reading Walter's excellent time's article on Henry Ford by Lee Iaccocca. While the amount of money that is circulated abroad is miniscule, more disturbingly large chunks of money is fleeing this country to support a meaningless war. Think about it. Really.
Second, the increasingly global labor market will keep the pressure on U.S. wages and benefits. This is especially true because the global labor market now provides competition for the kind of highly trained technical jobs that have been largely impossible to ship off-shore until now.
[Mermaid]Globalisation and economic upturns are part of the economic cycle. It is not the curse or boon for any nation. It is just how things are and its better to understand them instead of bemoaning the lost jobs. It is not something that has happened *only* to Americans. It's like sex. You bleed a little, it hurts a bit, but you learn to enjoy it. Even if it seems that you are being fucked over from behind in the beginning.
For example, the starting salary for an engineer in India ranges between $7,800 and $12,000 a year. In the United States, the starting salary for a comparable engineer is about $43,000. And India is graduating about 300,000 new engineers a year.
But neither India nor any other single country is the real competitive threat to that U.S. worker. Rather, it’s the entire ongoing process of economic globalization that is sweeping across one country after another. China’s programmers and information technology workers undercut the costs of U.S. workers and were themselves then undercut by Russian workers who were then undercut by Indian professionals. An information professional in China earns an average of $8,900 a year, in Russia $6,000 and in India $5,800.
And of course India’s workers face lower-cost competition from places such as the Philippines and Viet Nam.
[Mermaid]Nobody can really escape the global forces. One might dodge it in the beginning, but ultimately, only non zero games will help regain equilibrium and blunt the competitive edge..right now, we are growing sideways...trying to fatten up the different parts of our world body of nations. Once we are all well fed and happy and when we reach a state that is nearing equilibrium(not completely..that would erase the competitive edge), we have to grow taller..towards greater technology..towards higher goals...and towards lofty dreams...we shall conquer death and disease..we may even vacation on the moon..but not until every child is fed, clothed and educated....Imagine you are on your bed, but your head alone wants to look out of the window to watch a glorious sunrise....your body cannot rise without your legs and torso and everything else co-operating with your head to see that beautiful beginning of a day....Your head houses your brain and has the eyes through which you can see the sunrise, but can you feed just your brain or stick a food tube for your eyes alone? Ignore the rest of your body, your faculties will betray you and fail you...enough already..i am sure everyone got the idea..
It will reduce the amount of U.S. retirement and savings capital available to the U.S. markets. In the short run, it’s likely that workers who find their budgets stretched by this environment will save less in order to keep current spending patterns intact. That’s not desirable and not sustainable in the long run. But it is the normal reaction to a squeeze like this.
It will change the risk that U.S. workers are willing to take with their investment money with three possible reactions:
The likely reaction from most workers facing the likelihood that they’ll have less capital to replace losses will be to seek investments with less risk.
Some smaller percentage may actually take on more risk, essentially buying a lottery ticket and gambling since achieving their goals by any other means won’t seem possible. One side effect of this double-or-nothing mentality is likely to be a rise in the number of financial frauds that promise hard-pressed investors tantalizing returns.
And third, we’re likely to see a revival of international investing as investors seek to find companies able to take advantage of the new global competition no matter where they operate. I hope that that the capital markets in the rest of the world will be able to develop quickly enough to deliver a reasonably honest deal to U.S.-based investors. I fear that’s unlikely.
(end)
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rhinoceros
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Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #40 on: 2003-10-27 09:38:52 » |
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[Mermaid]
btw..having said all that..i dont know how things will improve if the concept of minimum wage is abolished. I can make guesses, but they would be just that..guesses..
if we are talking about reforms..i'd start by eliminating high school kids from working in low paying, unskilled, minimum wage jobs...i dont see the point of it anyways..does anyone else?
[rhinoceros]
Yes, it is hard to say. Effective answers to this kind of questions do not lie in logic applied to oversimplified models; the answers are in the empirical data, and they are never as clear as we would like them to be...
I understand that it is always tempting to reassure ourselves by using a simple model and believe that we have figured it all out, and to think that those bonehead professors who publish thousands of pages of studies are wasting their time.
For example: Does the folllowing argument ring a bell to anyone?
"Competition is wasteful because it duplicates efforts, produces incompatible approaches which make perfectly good parts to be thrown away, it throws away good stuff which was not marketed probably or just lost to marketing muscle, etc... etc..."
I don't think this argument can be effectively countered just by logic. I could always try. I could say that this model of economy is simplistic (and offer another, equally simplistic one), about human nature and motivation, the intractability and diversity of human needs, culture-driven consumption biases, local availability and transportation issues, affordability, information availability and acceptance, etc. but these arguments would be as good as any if there were no empirical data to support my conclusions. Or, I could choose to get into studies based on empirical data, which contradict the claims of the initial model while they fit to a different, more suitable model for this case.
So, I put some time into collecting some URLs for studies about minimum wages and other related topics. I haven't read them, of course; maybe I will when I have the time. Putting them in this post was a handy way to keep them all bookmarked.
After a cursory glance, I think that a difficulty with interpretting the data is that the effect of a minimum wage is affected by the social policies in a country. It does seem to affect the employment of the young somehow in some countries. Not sure if it is about work for pocket-money, though. I'll have to read more.
=========================
http://www.iue.it/LIB/Collections/NewWPJulyAugust2003.shtml
The effects of payroll tax subsidies for low wage workers on firms level decisions (Bruno Crépon, Paris 2003)
http://www.crest.fr/doctravail/document/2003-06.pdf
Wages, productivity and worker characteristics (Bruno Crépon, Paris 2003)
http://www.crest.fr/doctravail/document/2003-04.pdf
Production synergies, technology adoption, unemployement, and wages (Gwen Eudey, Washington 2001)
http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/feds/2001/200129/ 200129pap.pdf
Minimum wages, labor market institutions, and youth employement (David Neumark, Washington 2003)
http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/feds/2003/200323/ 200323pap.pdf
Wage bargaining and vertical differentiation (Emanuele Bacchiega, Louvain-la-Neuve 2002)
http://www.core.ucl.ac.be/services/psfiles/dp02/dp2002-76.pdf
Redistribution with capital mobility and unions' wage setting (Manuel Leite-Monteiro, Louvain-la-Neuve 2002)
http://www.core.ucl.ac.be/services/psfiles/dp02/dp2002-3.pdf
Minimum wage, employement and monopsonistic competition (V. Bhaskar, Colchester 2002)
http://www.essex.ac.uk/economics/discussion-papers/papers-text/ dp548.pdf
Wage differentiation via subsidised general training (V. Bhaskar, Colchester 2002)
http://www.essex.ac.uk/economics/discussion-papers/papers-text/ dp549.pdf
Wage and price Philipps curves (Peter Flaschel, Oxford 2003)
http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/economics/papers/2003/W16/PFHMK3a.pdf
========================
http://econpapers.hhs.se/paper/izaizadps/
The Macroeconomics of Labor and Credit Market Imperfections
http://ftp://repec.iza.org/RePEc/Discussionpaper/dp179.pdf
The European Phillips Curve: Does the NAIRU Exist?
http://ftp://repec.iza.org/RePEc/Discussionpaper/dp876.pdf
Inflation, Minimum Wage and Other Wages: An Econometric Study on French Macroeconomic Data
http://ftp://repec.iza.org/RePEc/Discussionpaper/dp861.pdf
and
History of Historical Statistics of the United States
http://ftp://repec.iza.org/RePEc/Discussionpaper/dp858.pdf
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Walter Watts
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Just when I thought I was out-they pull me back in
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Re: virus: Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #41 on: 2003-10-27 16:21:29 » |
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Okay. Aside from all the Ph.D. economic theory, let's propose a real-life scenario.
Let's imagine, dog forbid, a person of ethnicity, who might not be the sharpest tack in the box, who may be single, have a young child and only a G.E.D.
They work at Wendys/McDonalds/the movie theater/the grocery store/Wally World/damn near anywhere full-time.
Their take-home pay is nowhere CLOSE to the sum of their rent, utilities, car, gas, insurance, food and daycare.
Read my lips, economic theorists:
NOWHERE FUCKING CLOSE!!
What would we, as Virians, have the said "liver" of the famous "American Dream" do?
Enroll in the local community college and become a P.C. technician?
Puleeeeze.......
Walter
--
Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Reminding you to help control the human population. Have your sexual partner spayed or neutered."
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Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
No one gets to see the Wizard! Not nobody! Not no how!
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simul
Adept
Gender:
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I am a lama.
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Re: virus: Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #42 on: 2003-10-27 17:16:32 » |
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"...living the Americqan dream....What would we, as Virians do"?
How about propagating an empowering philosophy the same way the Church did in the old days:
http://www.nypif.org/
Drop net connections in homeless shelters...
Note: Integrity is a critical Virian virtue. A person who says he's going to do something and the doesn't do it is, well, an ineffective member. Not that they are "wrong". They just have no memetic power....
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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DrSebby
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...Oh, you smell of lambs!
    
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Re: virus: Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #43 on: 2003-10-27 18:09:39 » |
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....that has always been a difficult one walter. if i were the
aforementioned idiot's personal advisor, i would instruct her to give the
baby up for adoption most likely, look at the thing (no matter how stupid)
they love the most and throw themselves into said industry whole heartedly
whilst making severe cuts in spending allowances and attending some local
city college o do a little bit of catchup at least.
ok, so at this point in this persons life (judging by their prior
decision making tendencies) it's probably not going to happen which is why
the ...Seb-O'matic (tm) Hindsight Recalibrator... should be purchased at
this point. when set at "Micro-Level", results may include but will not be
limited to: a highschool diploma, a lack of pre-teen 'huffing', altered
opinions on abortion, less church going, more study time, redefining
"hip-hop" as a music type as opposed to a way of life, not plotting out ones
life decisions solely on the wisdom of a pop-culture addicted adolescent
brain, better pre-natal care and in some cases non-existence (product fully
refundable if this should occur). Macro level settings might include
results such as entire family lineages not existing...usually those playing
a part in 4+ child families. be warned that macro level settings might
result in a U.S. population of roughly 180 million, so if you dont think
you'll be one of these, you should consider only the Micro level setting.
DrSebby.
"Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows----
From: Walter Watts <wlwatts@cox.net>
Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re: virus: Re:Minimum wage
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:21:29 -0600
Okay. Aside from all the Ph.D. economic theory, let's propose a real-life
scenario.
Let's imagine, dog forbid, a person of ethnicity, who might not be the
sharpest tack in the box, who may be single, have a young child and only a
G.E.D.
They work at Wendys/McDonalds/the movie theater/the grocery store/Wally
World/damn near anywhere full-time.
Their take-home pay is nowhere CLOSE to the sum of their rent, utilities,
car, gas, insurance, food and daycare.
Read my lips, economic theorists:
NOWHERE FUCKING CLOSE!!
What would we, as Virians, have the said "liver" of the famous "American
Dream" do?
Enroll in the local community college and become a P.C. technician?
Puleeeeze.......
Walter
--
Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Reminding you to help control the human population. Have your sexual
partner spayed or neutered."
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
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"courage and shuffle the cards..."
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Walter Watts
Archon
Gender:
Posts: 1571
Reputation: 8.89
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Just when I thought I was out-they pull me back in
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Re: virus: Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #44 on: 2003-10-28 05:05:12 » |
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ROFL!
Walter
By the way, where can I order my very own Seb-O'matic (tm) Hindsight Recalibrator?
Dr Sebby wrote:
> ....that has always been a difficult one walter. if i were the
> aforementioned idiot's personal advisor, i would instruct her to give the
> baby up for adoption most likely, look at the thing (no matter how stupid)
> they love the most and throw themselves into said industry whole heartedly
> whilst making severe cuts in spending allowances and attending some local
> city college o do a little bit of catchup at least.
>
> ok, so at this point in this persons life (judging by their prior
> decision making tendencies) it's probably not going to happen which is why
> the ...Seb-O'matic (tm) Hindsight Recalibrator... should be purchased at
> this point. when set at "Micro-Level", results may include but will not be
> limited to: a highschool diploma, a lack of pre-teen 'huffing', altered
> opinions on abortion, less church going, more study time, redefining
> "hip-hop" as a music type as opposed to a way of life, not plotting out ones
> life decisions solely on the wisdom of a pop-culture addicted adolescent
> brain, better pre-natal care and in some cases non-existence (product fully
> refundable if this should occur). Macro level settings might include
> results such as entire family lineages not existing...usually those playing
> a part in 4+ child families. be warned that macro level settings might
> result in a U.S. population of roughly 180 million, so if you dont think
> you'll be one of these, you should consider only the Micro level setting.
>
> DrSebby.
> "Courage...and shuffle the cards".
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Walter Watts <wlwatts@cox.net>
> Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com
> To: virus@lucifer.com
> Subject: Re: virus: Re:Minimum wage
> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:21:29 -0600
>
> Okay. Aside from all the Ph.D. economic theory, let's propose a real-life
> scenario.
>
> Let's imagine, dog forbid, a person of ethnicity, who might not be the
> sharpest tack in the box, who may be single, have a young child and only a
> G.E.D.
>
> They work at Wendys/McDonalds/the movie theater/the grocery store/Wally
> World/damn near anywhere full-time.
>
> Their take-home pay is nowhere CLOSE to the sum of their rent, utilities,
> car, gas, insurance, food and daycare.
>
> Read my lips, economic theorists:
>
> NOWHERE FUCKING CLOSE!!
>
> What would we, as Virians, have the said "liver" of the famous "American
> Dream" do?
>
> Enroll in the local community college and become a P.C. technician?
>
> Puleeeeze.......
>
> Walter
>
> --
>
> Walter Watts
> Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
>
> "Reminding you to help control the human population. Have your sexual
> partner spayed or neutered."
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
--
Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Reminding you to help control the human population. Have your sexual partner spayed
or neutered."
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
No one gets to see the Wizard! Not nobody! Not no how!
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