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Topic: virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates. was Re: :The
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hkhenson@rogers...
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virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates. was Re: :The
Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« on: 2003-10-05 23:50:34 » |
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At 06:08 PM 05/10/03 -0600, you wrote:
snip
>I have no reason to believe that primitive societies are NOT violent at
>all. However, I do not accept the reasoning attempted to prove that
>primitive societies are more violent than non primitive societies.
I think a good case could be made for primitive societies being more
violent than non primitive societies. They certainly are at the level of
violence seen by the murder rates.
>What you are showing me is the study where the researchers are
>extrapolating *one* form of violence and trying to sell the idea that
>primitive societies are more violent than non primitive societies. imo, it
>is neither valid nor factual.
You are welcome to point me to studies or other evidence that indicates
there is a lower level of violence in primitive societies. There is
possible evidence for less of one kind of violence in primitive societies
compared to non primitive ones. It was found that bone collections from
primitive societies show almost none of the "bone bruises" you see on
children who have been abused today. But as the article pointed out, this
might have been due to the ease of killing unwanted kids early.
(Sorry, I could not find the article. Might not be on the net.)
Keith
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Mermaid
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Re:virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates. was Re: :The Disciplina
« Reply #1 on: 2003-10-06 01:16:44 » |
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[henson]I think a good case could be made for primitive societies being more violent than non primitive societies. They certainly are at the level of violence seen by the murder rates.
[Mermaid]I have made it very clear why this reasoning has more holes than swiss cheese on it. Ahh..well..
[henson]You are welcome to point me to studies or other evidence that indicates there is a lower level of violence in primitive societies.
[Mermaid]I never made such a claim. I am just saying that the opposite may not be true given the available information because we do not start with the assumption, other things being equal.
[henson]There is possible evidence for less of one kind of violence in primitive societies compared to non primitive ones. It was found that bone collections from
primitive societies show almost none of the "bone bruises" you see on children who have been abused today. But as the article pointed out, this might have been due to the ease of killing unwanted kids early.
(Sorry, I could not find the article. Might not be on the net.)
[Mermaid]An aside. For some reason, the (alleged)child sacrifices of Carthage comes to mind. Aristotle, in one of his works, praised Carthage as a fully functioning democracy. When Carthage became a full fledged democracy, it was said that the common man could do what was once the unique privilege of royalty. The sacrifice of children to god.
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates. was Re: :The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #2 on: 2003-10-06 03:31:05 » |
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> [henson]I think a good case could be made for primitive societies
being
> more violent than non primitive societies. They certainly are at the
> level of violence seen by the murder rates.
[Blunderov]
A lot depends on what the word murder means I think. The subject
interest me very much = vote of thanks to both Henson and Mermaid for an
absorbing discussion.
I found this;
http://norlonto.net/index.cfm/action/reviews.view/itemID/96/type/rvwsBoo
ks
Archeology of Violence
by Pierre Clastres
a review by Gyrus
Recommended
Published by Semiotext(e), 1994
ISBN: 0936756950
by Pierre Clastres
a review by Gyrus
Recommended
Published by Semiotext(e), 1994
ISBN: 0936756950
<snip>
Clastres argues that most cultures referred to as "primitive" in fact
choose their mode of living together. They are suspicious of any
evolution of this social structure, hence the term "traditional
cultures" - cultures whose social and religious laws are embedded in a
sophisticated oral tradition traced back to "the ancestors", mythical
antecedents who are seen to originate the eternally repeating pattern of
current society.
This formulation, like all generalisations, contains its own prejudices,
but let's stick with Clastres here for a moment. What is this social
structure that resists change, presumably well enough to have survived
in some form from the palaeolithic to the present day (just)? And what
is the change that is resisted? In short, the social structure is a
society without a State. And the absence of a State is, in Clastres'
view, no accident. It is precisely the State that is resisted.
The State is defined by Clastres as "a separate organ of power", that
is, something that separates social power from society itself. Instead
of collective self-government, society is split into Masters and
Subjects, the Dominators and the Dominated. This split, Clastres argues,
is seen, or felt, to be the prime evil by primitive societies, the
beginning of the end for social egalitarianism and true democracy, to be
warded off at all costs.
And how is the formation of the State resisted? In a word, war. Here we
need to see that the nature of war itself changed along with the
transformation of social modes. "Primitive" warfare is a different
matter from "classical" or "modern" warfare. Drawing on Marshall
Sahlin's work, which showed that most primitive societies exist in a
state of affluence - where a few hours' work a day will suffice to
provide all necessities, where economic surplus and profit are
meaningless - Clastres argues that primitive war has little to do with
competition for resources. The major resource apparently fought for
among the Yanomami is women and children, but given that peaceful
exchanges can also serve to ensure such genetic distribution, Clastres
argues that something else is essential to primitive war: social
autonomy and the self-determination of the social group....
Warriors also hold a less privileged position in primitive society than
we may suppose. Clastres takes pains to elucidate the distinction
between power (the ability to effect social control) and prestige
(honour, or glory) in primitive societies, where warriors gain the
latter through their frequent raids on other villages and defence of
their own, but are prevented from holding the former.
So, a perpetual state of war exists between primitive groups, a war
which certainly has casualties, but which, in Clastres' view, serves to
maintain the vital self-government of each group. Should this
dispersive, "centrifugal" war cease, he reasons, the exchanges and
friendly connections between disparate social groupings would inexorably
lead to a "centripetal" evolution towards a larger social union, a
drawing together... and the impossibility of self-determination, an
inevitable descent into social division, the splitting of power away
from society itself: the State.
</snip>
[Blunderov]Also worth bearing in mind, perhaps, is the possibility that
death may have not held the same meaning that it does now. Deep in the
ooze of ancient religion is the notion of 'the afterlife'. It is
possible to imagine that the afterlife was a very real place to ancient
peoples; to them, perhaps, a plain fact that everyman could observe for
himself and perhaps nothing like the 'theoretical' possibility which is
haggled over in modern times.
I wonder whether it could be argued from this that the origins of crime
are contained in the State itself. That at its Hollywood heart of
darkness lies a glamorous resistance to the State, a sexy partisan
hiding in the mountains?
Best Regards
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hkhenson@rogers...
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Re:virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates.
« Reply #3 on: 2003-10-06 10:15:27 » |
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At 11:16 PM 05/10/03 -0600, you wrote:
>[henson]I think a good case could be made for primitive societies being
>more violent than non primitive societies. They certainly are at the
>level of violence seen by the murder rates.
>
>[Mermaid]I have made it very clear why this reasoning has more holes than
>swiss cheese on it. Ahh..well..
I really didn't try to make a case re more or less overall violence in
primitive societies, even pointing out later that with respect to violence
against children it might be lower (from bone studies).
I could construct arguments either way.
I think that you would agree that there are degrees of violence and that
murder is at the high end of the range of violence.
If violence falls along some range with the more extreme being less common
(Bell curve) then you would expect high murder rates to be continuous with
less extreme forms of violence, resulting in more area under the "violence
curve." From what I know about chimp societies, a plot of this kind would
show lower levels of violence to be common and murders fairly rare. (If
you have not read Chimpanzee Politics, you should.)
On the other hand, lower levels of violence could be restrained by social
forces. It is believed for example that communal living may reduce the
damage from spouse (wife) beatings because the other tribe members (who are
always nearby) intervene. You could get a situation where lower levels of
violence were suppressed but if violence did occur, it often resulted in
murder.
I simply don't know. Perhaps some readers can cite studies.
Keith Henson
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Mermaid
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RE: virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates. was Re: :The Disciplina
« Reply #4 on: 2003-10-06 11:26:23 » |
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[Blunderov quoted]The State is defined by Clastres as "a separate organ of power", that is, something that separates social power from society itself. [...]"Primitive" warfare is a different
matter from "classical" or "modern" warfare. Drawing on Marshall
Sahlin's work, which showed that most primitive societies exist in a
state of affluence - where a few hours' work a day will suffice to
provide all necessities, where economic surplus and profit are
meaningless - Clastres argues that primitive war has little to do with
competition for resources. The major resource apparently fought for
among the Yanomami is women and children, but given that peaceful
exchanges can also serve to ensure such genetic distribution, Clastres
argues that something else is essential to primitive war: social
autonomy and the self-determination of the social group....
[Mermaid]That is an interesting book review. Thanks for posting it. It is close enough to what I attempted to explain about 'ordered societies' as well as the need to see war and violence with a different perspective when it comes to comparing primitive and non primitive societies.
[Blunderov]Also worth bearing in mind, perhaps, is the possibility that
death may have not held the same meaning that it does now. Deep in the
ooze of ancient religion is the notion of 'the afterlife'. It is
possible to imagine that the afterlife was a very real place to ancient
peoples; to them, perhaps, a plain fact that everyman could observe for
himself and perhaps nothing like the 'theoretical' possibility which is
haggled over in modern times.
[Mermaid]The Aztecs, one of the most violent primitive societies, honoured the captured enemy soldier by sacrificing him to the gods. When primitive societies engage in practices like human sacrifice or cannibilism, it may be distasteful to us. But from the point of view of these people, it is a form of nourishment, tradition and belief...and not intended as violence. I am NOT trying to defend these obviously violent acts, but there is such a thing as perspective.
Slaughtering of animals for nourishment can be a very violent and for some, a sinful act..especially from the perspective of non meat eating societies. As another example...if the non-meat eating Brahmin of India declares that the meat eating white man of the western world is a violent, uncivilised, culinary illiterate...a savage who enjoys dead animals, one would have to question the wisdom of the Brahmin's conclusion with respect to his ignorance of all matters outside of his cultural and social borders.
[Blunderov]I wonder whether it could be argued from this that the origins of crime are contained in the State itself. That at its Hollywood heart of
darkness lies a glamorous resistance to the State, a sexy partisan
hiding in the mountains?
[Mermaid]can you elaborate on that? It sounds beautiful enough for me to borrow it for random conversation..but it would be better for me if I knew precisely what it means.
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JD
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Re:virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates. was Re: :The Disciplina
« Reply #5 on: 2003-10-06 12:50:06 » |
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Pinker argues persuasively in the "The Blank State" that the idea of the noble savage is bunk and that primitive societies were (and are) indeed extremely violent. I will try and post relevant bits later.
Regards
Jonathan
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RE: virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates. was Re: :The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #6 on: 2003-10-06 15:47:15 » |
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Jonathan Davis
> Sent: 06 October 2003 1850
> Pinker argues persuasively in the "The Blank State" that the idea of
the
> noble savage is bunk and that primitive societies were (and are)
indeed
> extremely violent. I will try and post relevant bits later.
[Blunderov]
I look forward to it with interest.
Just to be clear, I don't think anyone is suggesting that savagery is
noble exactly. I think the issue is more one of how possible it is to
make meaningful comparisons at this remove.
I share the Mermaid's suspicion of invoking percentage comparisons to
this end. I cannot help but wonder whether a species of category error
hasn't crept in unnoticed. The thought strikes me that the statement
'primitive societies were/are more violent than modern ones' is perhaps
more of a modern value judgment than it is a clear comparison of two
similar things.
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rhinoceros
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Re: virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates. was Re: :The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #7 on: 2003-10-06 16:10:03 » |
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[Blunderov]
What I was wondering about is the apparent persistence of the 'romantic
outlaw' theme in popular culture. Often criminals seem to attract an
unaccountable admiration. Ned Kelly is a folk hero. So is Robin Hood.
Guy Fawkes is still celebrated around the world. Here in SA the Stander
gang seemed to attract more approval than anything else. And the popular
imagination is rapt with what it perceives as the nihilism of serial
killers.
[rhinoceros]
Heh, thanks for reminding me Blunderov. I just dug out Bob Dylan's "Pat
Garett and Billy the Kid."
____________________________________________________________________
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rhinoceros
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Re: Re:virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates.
« Reply #8 on: 2003-10-06 13:31:02 » |
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Besides the different forms and the different perpetrators of violence,
some other things which need clarification are:
a) How should we define "primitive culture" in this discussion? By its
technological level? By the size of the social units comprising it? By
the acceptance of the western secular values? By its adherence to
tradition? Wealth? The terrain? Population density?
We also need to know how the related articles and statistics define
"primitive culture", so that we can evaluate the data correctly. My best
guess is that the criteria which have been used are a balanced mixture
which appeals to the researcher's peer social environment.
That said, my question was *not* about taking issue because someone got
called prmitive by someone else. What I am after is finding specific
causes and making meaningful inferences.
b) Do we have reasons to assume that all the different cultures which
are collectively labeled as primitive have the same behavior regarding
violence? To be more specific, isn't it possible that the horrifying
numbers come from a couple of particular primitive cultures, plus a
couple more which were caught in a chain of events caused by external
meddling?
c) Statistical data in their raw form is a nasty thing. All it takes is
choosing a suitable categorization which places most of the "bad ones"
in one of your categories. This way, one can support anything.
Statistics is much more than that, but a lot of work needs to be
performed on the raw data. Before drawing a conclusion from a chart like
that one, you have to take a good first guess at picking the significant
variables, make a hypothesis, and use a method such as factor analysis
and check levels of significance, confidence, and lots of more boring
stuff.
BTW, last year we were discussing something related with an unnamed
person right here. The kind of violence we were talking about was taking
the law upon oneself ("terrorism", to use that person's words). Let's
say you live in a place occupied by the enemy tribe. Some members of
your tribe, possibly under the influence of capture bonding (which, BTW,
while well documented, I still think is a pathological phenomenon only
applying to some) or for some other reason become "godfathers" empowered
by the enemy tribe. Their activities are perfectly legal, so some kids
of your tribe take it upon themselves to exterminate them without much
ado. In my opinion, this is an abnormal situation where neither modern
law nor tribal law could provide the much needed safety valve against
the feeling of "unfairness".
So, one case where violence occurs is when the familiar social landscape
breaks down.
I just remembered an incident which happened in Greece some time after
the death sentence was abolished (it had been already practically
inactive for several decades -- convicts were never executed, but it was
still in the book). In a backwards rural district, a retarded aggressive
20 year old boy sexually assaulted and killed a 12 year old boy. He was
arrested and prepared to be sent to the nearest city for trial. The
papers and the villagers called for blood, but there was no death
sentence any more. The papers were saying that the small boy's father,
a relatively old and tired-looking man, would take revenge by himself.
So it happened. A police convoy was carrying the big boy. The old man
was standing in the middle of the road holding a shotgun a few miles
away from the village. The cops got out of the car and stood aside,
while the old man shot the boy and then surrendered.
Afterwords, the villagers and the father of the big boy himself said "It
had to happen. There was no other way for restoring peace." Savages?
Yes, they are. But I believed them when they said that was the best way
to avoid more blood.
As far as I remember, the old man was tried for 5 years in prison or
less.
____________________________________________________________________
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates. was Re: :The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #9 on: 2003-10-06 16:49:29 » |
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rhinoceros
> [rhinoceros]
> Heh, thanks for reminding me Blunderov. I just dug out Bob Dylan's
"Pat
> Garett and Billy the Kid."
[Blunderov]
One of my all time favourites!
Best Regards
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Walter Watts
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Re: virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates. was Re:
:TheDisciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #10 on: 2003-10-06 17:20:45 » |
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http://www.walterwatts.com/images/homicide.jpg
--
Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Reminding you to help control the human population. Have your sexual partner spayed
or neutered."
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RE: virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates. was Re: :TheDisciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #11 on: 2003-10-06 17:35:32 » |
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Walter Watts
> Sent: 06 October 2003 2321
> http://www.walterwatts.com/images/homicide.jpg
[Blunderov]
Interesting point Walter. If I'm interpreting this correctly it seems
that arguably the most advanced society in the world has a higher, or at
least not a lesser, homicide rate than others that are perhaps less
advanced?
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RE: virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates. was Re: :The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #12 on: 2003-10-06 18:02:10 » |
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I agree with you on this, Blunderlov. Pinker does not make comparisons as
such, rather he challenges the notion of the Nobel Savage - an enlightenment
notion championed by Rousseau which suggested that primitive man is morally
superior to civilized man.
Here is an extract from Chapter 1, where he outlines the issue:
The concept of the noble savage was inspired by European colonists'
discovery of indigenous peoples in the Americas, Africa, and (later)
Oceania. It captures the belief that humans in their natural state are
selfless, peaceable, and untroubled, and that blights such as greed,
anxiety, and violence are the products of civilization. In 1755 Rousseau
wrote:
So many authors have hastily concluded that man is naturally cruel, and
requires a regular system of police to be reclaimed; whereas nothing can be
more gentle than him in his primitive state, when placed by nature at an
equal distance from the stupidity of brutes and the pernicious good sense of
civilized man. . . .
The more we reflect on this state, the more convinced we shall be that it
was the least subject of any to revolutions, the best for man, and that
nothing could have drawn him out of it but some fatal accident, which, for
the public good, should never have happened. The example of the savages,
most of whom have been found in this condition, seems to confirm that
mankind was formed ever to remain in it, that this condition is the real
youth of the world, and that all ulterior improvements have been so many
steps, in appearance towards the perfection of individuals, but in fact
towards the decrepitness of the species.
First among the authors that Rousseau had in mind was Thomas Hobbes
(1588-1679), who had presented a very different picture:
Hereby it is manifest, that during the time men live without a common power
to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and
such a war as is of every man against every man. . . .
In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof
is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor
use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building;
no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force; no
knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters;
no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent
death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.
Hobbes believed that people could escape this hellish existence only by
surrendering their autonomy to a sovereign person or assembly. He called it
a leviathan, the Hebrew word for a monstrous sea creature subdued by Yahweh
at the dawn of creation.
Much depends on which of these armchair anthropologists is correct. If
people are noble savages, then a domineering leviathan is unnecessary.
Indeed, by forcing people to delineate private property for the state to
recognize-property they might otherwise have shared-the leviathan creates
the very greed and belligerence it is designed to control. A happy society
would be our birthright; all we would need to do is eliminate the
institutional barriers that keep it from us. If, in contrast, people are
naturally nasty, the best we can hope for is an uneasy truce enforced by
police and the army. The two theories have implications for private life as
well. Every child is born a savage (that is, uncivilized), so if savages are
naturally gentle, childrearing is a matter of providing children with
opportunities to develop their potential, and evil people are products of a
society that has corrupted them. If savages are naturally nasty, then
childrearing is an arena of discipline and conflict, and evil people are
showing a dark side that was insufficiently tamed.
The actual writings of philosophers are always more complex than the
theories they come to symbolize in the textbooks. In reality, the views of
Hobbes and Rousseau are not that far apart. Rousseau, like Hobbes, believed
(incorrectly) that savages were solitary, without ties of love or loyalty,
and without any industry or art (and he may have out-Hobbes'd Hobbes in
claiming they did not even have language). Hobbes envisioned-indeed,
literally drew-his leviathan as an embodiment of the collective will, which
was vested in it by a kind of social contract; Rousseau's most famous work
is called The Social Contract, and in it he calls on people to subordinate
their interests to a "general will."
Nonetheless, Hobbes and Rousseau limned contrasting pictures of the state of
nature that have inspired thinkers in the centuries since. No one can fail
to recognize the influence of the doctrine of the Noble Savage in
contemporary consciousness. We see it in the current respect for all things
natural (natural foods, natural medicines, natural childbirth) and the
distrust of the man-made, the unfashionability of authoritarian styles of
childrearing and education, and the understanding of social problems as
repairable defects in our institutions rather than as tragedies inherent to
the human condition.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/ae/books/ch1/1653757
----
Later he presents sound arguments that the idea of the Nobel Savage is
deeply flawed and that primitive societies across the world are very violent
indeed - much more so that "civilized" societies. If anyone has the book, he
starts discussing this on page 55 of the paperback (chapter 3) and ends on
page 58. One striking graphs shows deaths from warfare in various societies.
At the bottom, virtually undetectable is Europe and America in the 20th
Century (looks like 1%). The rest are various pre-state (primitive) tribes.
The worst are the Jivaro who lose just under 50% of their population to war
(picture taken with mobile below).
I have no scanner here, so I will scan and post the relevant sections
tomorrow if anyone is interested in reading them.
Kind regards
Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Blunderov
Sent: 06 October 2003 20:47
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates. was Re:
:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
Jonathan Davis
> Sent: 06 October 2003 1850
> Pinker argues persuasively in the "The Blank State" that the idea of
the
> noble savage is bunk and that primitive societies were (and are)
indeed
> extremely violent. I will try and post relevant bits later.
[Blunderov]
I look forward to it with interest.
Just to be clear, I don't think anyone is suggesting that savagery is noble
exactly. I think the issue is more one of how possible it is to make
meaningful comparisons at this remove.
I share the Mermaid's suspicion of invoking percentage comparisons to this
end. I cannot help but wonder whether a species of category error hasn't
crept in unnoticed. The thought strikes me that the statement 'primitive
societies were/are more violent than modern ones' is perhaps more of a
modern value judgment than it is a clear comparison of two similar things.
Best Regards
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Walter Watts
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Re: virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates. was Re:
:TheDisciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #13 on: 2003-10-06 19:00:49 » |
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I don't know what all the fuss is about homicide rates.
There are some CoV subscribers I'd murder if I could get away with it.
;-'>
Walter
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Walter Watts
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Hermit
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Re:virus: Primitive society violence and murder rates. was Re: :The
Discipli
« Reply #14 on: 2003-10-06 20:33:47 » |
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A brief glimpse at the google results for the search string provided by hkhenson seems to indicate that the "unnatural" death rate in primitive societies hovers at around 25%. Naturally that figure does not include preventable disease, which together with perinatal and infant mortality are their major killers. This combination ensures that life in primitive societies tends to be short, uncomfortable and brutish - and their deaths more so.
Using US data as a benchmark (simply because it is readily available), in advanced societies, the "unnatural" death rate tends to be about 2% even including wars, car-smashes, nosocomial infections and other such delights. Life expectancies tend to be 3 to 5 times greater than those of primitives (very much better than that for women), and members of advanced societies tend to die of age and life-style related complexes.
I would suggest that all the other arguments are academic. If more people die violently in primitive societies, then we don't have to examine their genital mutilation customs (although that is another clear marker) to make the determination that the violence displayed in primitive societies is more generally lethal than any violence present in more advanced societies. Beyond that point you are gilding the lily.
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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